Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

tonysopprano

Finished, back tomorrow

Sparks

And the debate's adjourned until tomorrow morning at 1030, when he'll have 13 minutes to complete his hatchet job.

toshiba1

Thank You For Report

Sparks

Hmmm. Here's a thought experiment for you:

chris.andrews@oireachtas.ie

Think we could send in enough emails to get him to change his tack a little bit?
Just wondering (I know he's FF, but we might as well try). He's a rep for dublin south-east in case anyone can claim to be one of his constituents.

No6

I'm not in dublin south east but I am in Mayo, good to see Berverly ( a Mayo TD) standing up for us (a little) if she keeps it up she might even get a vote off me (well ok a low preference but hey its better than nothing!!) I wonder will the politicians ever realise even if there were no legitmately held fire arms in the country the violent crime levels would be exactly the same.!!!

Sparks

Sent to Chris Andrews (come on folks, fire off an email, what could it hurt?):

Deputy Andrews,
I have just watched the first seven minutes of your speech in the Dail on this Bill tonight, and I am sending this email in the hope that I can persuade you to cease and desist from your current stance that banning the legitimate, legal, licenced ownership of handguns will have any effect on gun crime.

The simple facts of the matter are that there is no link. We have asked the Minister in parliamentary questions on several occasions, most recently today, to provide any evidence of the use of licenced firearms in crime (whether held by their licenced owners, or whether used in crime having been stolen from those owners). He has stated himself that there is no such evidence. We have asked the head of the Garda Firearms Policy Unit for the same evidence, and have been told that there is none.

Further, it is not legal for a Garda Superintendent to grant a licence for a handgun to anyone unless he believes their possession of that handgun (or indeed any firearm) is not a danger to the public or to the peace. That licencee has to have met certain preconditions - he or she must have good reason to own the firearm, they must have a safe place to store it (and this is determined by standards set by the National Crime Prevention Unit and for pistols means a gunsafe, bolted to a structural wall, with sensors on the safe connected to the house alarm, which must be a monitored alarm such as eircom phonewatch, and that the doors and windows in the house must be of good quality and secure, and so forth - and the Superintendent will send the local Crime Prevention Officer to the house to visually inspect it for compliance with these standards). Further, any other preconditions which the Superintendent wishes to set must be met by the applicant, including - but not limited to - providing character references, access to medical records, proof of membership of a garda-inspected and garda-authorised target shooting club (handgun licences are only granted for target shooting except in very rare cases where Park Rangers have been issued licences for the purposes of humane dispatch, as vets have been in the past), and so forth.

In short, any applicant for a handgun licence is personally vouched for by a Superintendent in the Gardai - to say they are a cause of gun crime libels both the applicant and the Garda Superintendent concerned.

I wish to point out that firearms owners are as concerned over crime as every other member of the public because we are not some seperate group. We are just as likely to suffer from gun crime as any other member of the public - but somehow, we are being linked to that very crime we fear by those who are supposed to protect us from it, and it is maddening to watch.

And we are not some small and insignificant group. There are approximately 200,000 of us, holding 230,000 licenced firearms (which puts the 1800 pistol licences in context, and the fact that that 1800 includes starter pistols, paintball markers and other non-pistol type devices puts it in further context). We come from all walks of life from farmer to barrister, from labourer to engineer, from carpenter to doctor. We compete at every level - we have won medals in Olympic shotgun shooting (2002 Team Gold in the World Championships, 2007 Individual Silver in the World Championships and dozens of team and individual gold, silver and bronze medals in various World Cups and other events), in Olympic rifle shooting, and we are only now finally able to reclaim our place in Olympic pistol shooting (we saw our first civilian Olympic pistol shooter in 32 years go to a match only this february) - and now the Minister is seeking to ban handguns, and though we are assured that Olympic sports will be spared, the simple fact is that we have seen Olympic pistol shooting wiped out for thirty-odd years before and we worry that we may see it again.

I ask that when you return to the Dail chamber tomorrow morning, that you point out that there is no link between target shooters and gun crime. Some 200,000 voters are watching this bill and what is said in the chamber this week will be remembered clearly when we go to the polls innine days time to vote.

freddieot

Well put Sparks but I'd say it's closer to 300-400,000 potential votes if you include family and friends!!

None of my family would ever consider voting FF again after the way we are being treated.

If FF think for one second that they only risk losing 1,800 votes they will find out the hard way just what the shooting community and their families think of them in a few days (still they can't get anything else right either).

Well played to Pat Rabbitt and the other representatives with the balls to speak some common sense.

jwshooter

i think banging your head off a wall will do as much,but fair play to you.

my take on it so far is the deal is done .

RFD s have been looked after by blocking of the importation of firearms by US, me and you guys.

nargc are been looked after by getting a hot line to the top for problems.

icpsa are getting the euro passes extended for traveling competition shooters

the target pistol shooters are been let keep there pistols .

look who is on this panel .

practical pistol was never a runner but they persisted and started doing it, this was the death note for pistol shooting in eire.

this a election year and i do not think there is a man/woman in the dail that will stand up and fight our corner.

the new bill is under a SI so when it is past it becomes part of our constitution and can not be challenged in court.

i hope im wrong but i think im not.

meathshooter

I have sent all the Td and senators emails last week so far I have only got replies from Charley Flanagan, ivana bacik,who replied to my email in detail and are very aware of our plight, should let OUR elected representatives know of your dissatafaction will this Proposed Bill. Silence is not an option there not telepathic

BOBTHESHOOTER

meathshooter wrote: »

I have sent all the Td and senators emails last week so far I have only got replies from Charley Flanagan, ivana bacik,who replied to my email in detail and are very aware of our plight, should let OUR elected representatives know of your dissatafaction will this Proposed Bill. Silence is not an option there not telepathic

There are 16,000 hits on this Thread, so I do not believe I am the only one with concerns, our representatives are conspicious by their absence are they not, I would love to know what they are doing on our behalf, as is evidenced by the ministers comments it cannot be very constructive in any case.

Clash

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

I am informed that the majority of mainstream shooting organisations in Ireland have disassociated themselves from it, and this speaks volumes."

When the Minister can make a statement as he did in the last line we can all be sure that we were all sold down the river by the very people proporting to represent us................


"

That would include the IPSA Bob, who agreed to disband and cease all activity rather than lose all pistol sports.

Or have you forgotten?

meathshooter

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

There are 16,000 hits on this Thread, so I do not believe I am the only one with concerns, our representatives are conspicious by their absence are they not, I would love to know what they are doing on our behalf, as is evidenced by the ministers comments it cannot be very constructive in any case.

I personally rang two of our NGB representatives who I know personally last week on the 20Th of may after watching the second stage live on the Internet.I was assured that they where doing everything possible and knowing them well I have no reason to doubt them

HERE THE EMAIL REPLY FROM IVANA BACIK


Thank you for taking the time to send me a personal email on this issue. We have not yet had an opportunity to debate this legislation in the Seanad, but I enclose below the comments made in the Dail on the bill by Pat Rabbitte TD, Justice Spokesperson for Labour, with which I agree. I will certainly make sure that the comments you have raised with me are given a hearing when we do come to debate this matter, and thank you again for taking the time to email me.

Best wishes,

Ivana Bacik


Speech by Pat Rabbitte TD Labour Spokesperson on Justice

Dail, Wednesday 13 May 2009

As I have said earlier it is the Part of this Bill dealing with firearms that has been promoted by the Minister. My first reaction to the Minister's original statement was, I suspect, like that of most citizens: anything that restricts access by the criminal fraternity to firearms would be a good thing. It goes without saying that nobody committed to the rule of law would be against the control of guns. Every week, almost without exception, we wake up to the loss of life as a result of the use of guns by feuding gangland figures. The subliminal message from the Minister was that his new legislative proposals would tackle the availability of weapons to the criminal gangs.

In fact the Minister's proposals will have virtually no impact on the use of, or the access to, firearms by criminal gangs. Rather the Minister's Bill will have significant impact on those law abiding citizens, many in gun clubs, who hold licensed weapons in supervised conditions. However the evidence is that criminals do not get their hands on guns used by such clubs. We have the Minister's own word for it in answers to parliamentary questions. Sporting and gun clubs are not the source of guns for criminal gangs. The Minister's replies to parliamentary questions show that there is no credible evidence to link legally held handguns with crime of any kind.

A relatively small number - about 1 per cent - of the firearms in the country are legally held handguns in the possession of sporting clubs in rigorously prescribed conditions after the license holders are vetted by An Garda Siochána. These particular firearms are held for the purpose of participation in legitimate legal sporting disciplines and international competition. Some individuals have more than one handgun licensed, because different sporting disciplines require a different type and calibre of handgun. Taking all this into consideration, we are probably dealing with approximately 500 to 600 individual handgun license holders, and not the proliferation of handguns that is suggested.

The question is whether there is any evidence that some of these pistols find their way into the hands of the criminal fraternity? As recently as April 22nd, the Minister for Justice told the Dail that 31 handguns were recorded as stolen since 2004 but that "it is not possible to say precisely how many formerly legally held handguns have been used in criminal offences."

Subject to correction by the Minister, it appears to be the case that there is no evidence to show that legally held handguns, or stolen legally held handguns, have been used in the commission of any crime. The Labour Party fully supports the law being brought up to date in the matter of licensing of firearms, their security and their use. We do not support, however, measures purportedly introduced to tackle crime being used instead to put legitimate sports clubs out of business. Handgun target shooting sports in Ireland is not insignificant as a sport and is a dimension of indigenous rural business in some counties. If there was evidence that any of the handguns used in any of the 40-odd shooting ranges were finding their way into the hands of the criminals using firearms in our estates and on our streets, then Labour would support the banning of handguns. But we don't have that evidence.

On closer scrutiny of this part of the Bill it would appear that the manner of framing of critical sections is a knee jerk reaction by the Minister for Justice following recent shooting tragedies especially in Limerick. The spin being put out by agents of the Minister is to the effect that he is taking tough action on gun control which will help put the feuding gangs out of business. On closer scrutiny it is clear that the principal casualties of the Bill will be law abiding citizens who use licensed handguns for legitimate sporting purposes. This part of the Bill therefore requires a fundamental rethink and revision.

Laws are cheap and so is the publicity for Minister but what is also needed is investment in the service that enforces those laws. Garda numbers were set to reach almost 15,000 by the end of 2009. But because of early retirements and drastically reduced recruitment this figure will not now be reached. Reforms are desperately needed in the Minister's department to bring the numbers back up. We desperately need Gardaí walking the beat, visible on public transport, visiting schools. We need Gardaí visible in communities they know and serving people they know, can make a real impact on crime and anti-social behaviour.

It is also to be regretted that the Justice Minister has ignored the opportunity to respond to High Court criticism of the hotch potch nature of our law on firearms. The Court as recently as July 4th last criticised the piecemeal spreading over multiple pieces of legislation of the statutory rules for the control of firearms was undesirable and that codification in this are was almost as pressing as it is in the area of sexual violence. Instead this Bill proposes to make further extensive amendments to our firearms control laws and will exacerbate the piecemeal and fragmented nature of this important area of the law.

Fragmented laws and untracked amendments can result in errors on the part of both the prosecution authorities and defence lawyers and to the subsequent misapplication of the law by the Courts. This is apparent from a decision of the Court of Criminal Appeal given on March 24th where the Court declined to follow a previous decision that was based on the interpretation of a statutory provision that had in fact been effectively repealed and replaced at the time the decision was pronounced. What the Minister ought to be bringing before the House today is proposals for the necessary reform of the Firearms Acts into a single, comprehensive, updated and consolidated code.





Senator Ivana Bacik
Independent Senator
Dublin University Panel
Seanad Eireann
Leinster House
Dublin 2
Tel: (+353

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

There are 16,000 hits on this Thread, so I do not believe I am the only one with concerns, our representatives are conspicious by their absence are they not, I would love to know what they are doing on our behalf, as is evidenced by the ministers comments it cannot be very constructive in any case.

Several of the NGBs don't post in here, feeling their business is better carried out off-boards (and that they'd be setting themselves up for a hiding if they did post in here) and some are actively hostile to boards.ie for reasons they keep to themselves.

Mind you, they all read it faithfully...

rrpc

I've looked at that document that Bob the builder has posted here and tbh it's as deeply flawed as the CJ(MP)B is purported to be. - OK, that's gone, but I'm sure lots of you have had it emailed to you anyway.

It says that the Minister can't revoke firearms certs, only Superintendents. In fact the power of a Superintendent to either issue or revoke a firearms certificate was given by the Oireachtas and that power can also be fettered or abrogated in any way by the same Oireachtas by way of statute law. (which of course this is).

It also states that the restriction on personal imports will prevent Irish residents travelling abroad with their firearm, from bringing it back without going through a firearms dealer. This is nonsense and worse, the document actually quotes section 17 which is the very mechanism that will allow people to travel freely with their firearms.

There's nothing wrong with bringing up problems with proposed law. The real issue is that if you invent problems and bring them to the attention of politicians who are then confronted by the facts, you and your cause lose all credibility and support.

So by all means point out flaws. Just make sure that they actually are flaws or you'll be like the boy who cried wolf.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Clash wrote: »

That would include the IPSA Bob, who agreed to disband and cease all activity rather than lose all pistol sports.

Or have you forgotten?

This is not just about IPSA and their disbandment, this is about the real difficulty that not only pistols shooters will face but what happens when the pistols are gone and the minister decides that civilians having the capbility to hit a bucket at 1,000 yards are an issue, look out full bore target shooters.

Lets not forget that the IPSA were assured if they disbanded that the minister would not bring forward a ban in IPSA shooting, look what happended, the IPSA disbanded and the legislation was brought forward, one particular rep on the FCP is noting that there is some "wriggle room" do you believe him when IPSA did what they did on foot of advice from the FCP rep and look at what happened, a sport banned by legislation, where else in the world!!!!

I listended in awe at the minister defend the postion of shotgun shooters in the house today, after stating that 41 handguns were stolen since 2004 and this was a real concern to society (whereas we know that only 3 real pistols were stolen and one of those belonged to the Garda) and then went on the say that he wanted to prevent a handgun culture similar to the states, what a blinkered view, there are 1800 handguns in total in Ireland licensed, there were that many shotguns alone stolen last year and there are no draconian measures to deal with this. Indeed according to the NARGC's press release earlier in the year, if you only have one shotgun you will not even need a gunsafe!

I digress, the Minister also went on to say today that he feared for a domestic situation whereby there is a licensed handgun in the house and in the event of a domestic dispute he stated that a handgun could be used, in fairness to Pat Rabitt he stated that he would by the same logic need to ban the kitchen knife, emotive blackmail was what it was today in the house.

This Misc is not about hand guns alone, it is about all lawful ownership of guns, my god look at the extensive regulations being brought forward on Airsoft!

look we need to be working together to defeat this bull not arguing who did what when and where, we ahve been sold down the river and we need to see what can be salvaged.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Several of the NGBs don't post in here, feeling their business is better carried out off-boards (and that they'd be setting themselves up for a hiding if they did post in here) and some are actively hostile to boards.ie for reasons they keep to themselves.

Mind you, they all read it faithfully...

Having spoken to a few, many are not to sure about posting in any official capacity for fear of running foul of DeVore's 900 quid charge. Not in the first post announcement sense, but in possible discussions after making posts here where things may become heated.

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Lets not forget that the IPSA were assured if they disbanded that the minister would not bring forward a ban in IPSA shooting

Actually, that's not what they were told. They were in fact told that unless IPSA disbanded, all pistols would be banned.

there are 1800 handguns in total in Ireland licensed, there were that many shotguns alone stolen last year

Again, that's not true - you have to add up several years of statistics to get close to that number of stolen firearms.

This Misc is not about hand guns alone, it is about all lawful ownership of guns, my god look at the extensive regulations being brought forward on Airsoft!

Airsoft toys are not firearms. We've discussed that before - suggesting they are is neither helpful to them nor to us.

BOBTHESHOOTER

rrpc wrote: »

I've looked at that document that Bob the builder has posted here and tbh it's as deeply flawed as the CJ(MP)B is purported to be.

It says that the Minister can't revoke firearms certs, only Superintendents. In fact the power of a Superintendent to either issue or revoke a firearms certificate was given by the Oireachtas and that power can also be fettered or abrogated in any way by the same Oireachtas by way of statute law. (which of course this is).

It also states that the restriction on personal imports will prevent Irish residents travelling abroad with their firearm, from bringing it back without going through a firearms dealer. This is nonsense and worse, the document actually quotes section 17 which is the very mechanism that will allow people to travel freely with their firearms.

There's nothing wrong with bringing up problems with proposed law. The real issue is that if you invent problems and bring them to the attention of politicians who are then confronted by the facts, you and your cause lose all credibility and support.

So by all means point out flaws. Just make sure that they actually are flaws or you'll be like the boy who cried wolf.

Look at the proposed legislation Section 17 is repealed and only a firearms dealer may import a gun when it is enacted! Bob may be a builder but he appears to know more about the bits and pieces then you do.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Committee session is booked for 18th June, this will be the last opportunity to put forward amendments to the currently proposed legislation.

There is little point in just objecting to the proposed legislation it is important to put forward a counter proposal as an amendment.

It is clear that certain aspects of the bill need to be simply deleted but in respect to other aspects they need amending.

It is also very important to provide an explanation as to why there is a need to change.

If one looks at the Ministers Speech the position of those on the FCP have been clearly marked out and if one feels that there will be any further statements from our represntatives on the FCP then they are sadly mistaken:

Extract from the Ministers speech:
The International Action Network on Small Arms reported at the time of the announcement: “Unlike the UK, which imposed the ban in response to the Dunblane school shooting in 1996, the Irish government decided to act before a major tragedy involving handguns occurs”. It is right that we take this action now rather than endure a tragedy at some point in the future when people would rightly ask us, as politicians, why we did nothing in advance to prevent it, particularly in view of the recent statement by Mr. Justice Charleton in the High Court.

I also intend, in section 29, to prohibit the form of target shooting known as practical or dynamic shooting. This type of shooting involves firearms being used in simulated combat or combat training and is anathema to most target shooters. In so far as it is akin to police and military tactical training it is an undesirable activity not rooted in any tradition in Ireland and one which should not have any place in our society. I am informed that the majority of mainstream shooting organisations in Ireland have disassociated themselves from it, and this speaks volumes."

When the Minister can make a statement as he did in the last line we can all be sure that we were all sold down the river by the very people proporting to represent us................

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Having spoken to a few, many are not to sure about posting in any official capacity for fear of running foul of DeVore's 900 quid charge. Not in the first post announcement sense, but in possible discussions after making posts here where things may become heated.

Fair point, but a lot of those folks are getting worried about that because they only read the first post in that thread and miss the subsequent comments from DeVore including:

Anything that benefits the normal shooter directly (that is, events, competitions etc) are all good.

The key phrase in that whole thread is "Misuse of the forum"...

BOBTHESHOOTER

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Look at the proposed legislation Section 17 is repealed and only a firearms dealer may import a gun when it is enacted! Bob may be a builder but he appears to know more about the bits and pieces then you do.

Amendment of section 17 of Principal Act. 21.—(1) The restriction imposed by section 17 of the Principal Act on the importation into the State of firearms shall not apply in relation to the importation of a firearm by the holder of a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm which is in force.


Section 21 is repealed by 33 in the Misc Bill. and 31 inserted, importation exclusively by dealers, so what will that do to our ability to travel.

Sparks

Nothing. Importation isn't the same as travelling with your firearm, the difference being that you have a europass when travelling with your firearm. As to how they'll differentiate between someone who's coming back into Ireland with their firearm after taking it out to an international match; and someone who's bought one in Germany or wherever, gotten a licence for it at home, gone on a ryanair flight to Munich and picked it up and is now coming home with it; well, that's another story.

Mind you, I still think that whole part of the bill stinks to high heaven and should be opposed on several grounds (and I've written to TDs asking for that point to be raised in the Dail and to my NGB asking it to be opposed).

rrpc

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Look at the proposed legislation Section 17 is repealed and only a firearms dealer may import a gun when it is enacted! Bob may be a builder but he appears to know more about the bits and pieces then you do.

Hmmm.

Section 17 was replaced, not repealed and it didn't change the amandment to Section 17 inserted by Section 21 of the 1964 act:

1964 21
Amendment of section 17 of Principal Act. 21.

—(1) The restriction imposed by section 17 of the Principal Act on the importation into the State of firearms or ammunition (2006 56) shall not apply in relation to the importation of a firearm or ammunition (2006 56) by the holder of a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm which is in force.
(2) see above
(3) In this section, “ammunition” does not include—
(a) component parts of ammunition, or
(b) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles or their component parts.

Although I see now that Section 33 sneakily got rid of that

There's still the small issue of an EU directive to get over: 91/477

By all means bring it up, but be careful doing so. Saying that you think it might cause problems with people legitimately travelling is a lot better than saying it will cause problems.

It's a bad piece of law anyway, but then my opinion is that pretty much the whole thing (relating to firearms anyway) is a bad idea when there's bucket loads of law to be commenced and implemented yet.

Sparks

Edit: Bleh, don't post through a headache, you read "21" as "17" ...

Anyway, from the Misc.Bill:

33.—Section 21 of the Act of 1964 is hereby repealed.

That section 21 in the 1964 Act is this:

21.—(1) The restriction imposed by section 17 of the Principal Act on the importation into the State of firearms shall not apply in relation to the importation of a firearm by the holder of a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm which is in force.

(2) The said section 17 is hereby amended by—
(a) the deletion in subsection (3) of "(not exceeding six months)", and
(b) the deletion in subsection (4) of "(not being more than one month)",

And that means that this part of section 17 will now apply:

17.—(1) No person shall import into Saorstát Eireann any firearm, ammunition, or prohibited weapon unless such import is authorised by a continuing licence granted under this section and in force at the time, or by an occasional licence granted under this section and relating to the specific firearm, ammunition or prohibited weapon so imported.

(2) An occasional licence to import a prohibited weapon may be granted by the Minister for Defence to such person, upon such terms, and subject to such conditions as he shall think fit, and every such occasional licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into Saorstát Eireann of the prohibited weapon specified in such licence through the port, by the person, within the time, and subject to the conditions named in such licence.

(3) A continuing licence to import firearms or ammunition may on application in the prescribed manner be granted by the Minister if he thinks fit so to do to any registered firearms dealer, and every such continuing licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into Saorstát Eireann of firearms and ammunition generally or of any specified class or classes of firearms and ammunition through the port, by the registered dealer, during the period (not exceeding six months), and subject to the conditions named in such licence.

(4) An occasional licence to import into Saorstát Eireann a firearm, with or without ammunition therefor, may, on application in the prescribed manner be granted by the Minister to any person who holds or could be granted a firearm certificate for the firearm and ammunition (if any) in respect of which the occasional licence is sought or is a registered firearms dealer and every such occasional licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into Saorstát Eireann of the firearm and the quantity of ammunition (if any) specified in such licence through the port, by the person, within the time (not being more than one month), and subject to the conditions named in such licence.

(5) Every continuing licence granted by the Minister under this section may be varied or revoked by the Minister at any time before its expiration.

(6) If any person imports into Saorstát Eireann a firearm or prohibited weapon or any ammunition without or otherwise than in accordance with a licence under this section authorising such importation or, in the case of ammunition, in quantities in excess of those so authorised, or fails to comply with any condition named in a licence granted to him under this section, he shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.

(7) The possession of a licence granted under this section, shall not relieve from the obligation to obtain or hold any certificate, permit, or authority required by any other provision, of this Act.

(8) This section shall not apply to the importation into Saorstát Eireann of any firearms, ammunition or prohibited weapon which is so imported under the authority of the Minister for Defence for the use of the Defence Forces of Saorstát Eireann or under the authority of the Minister for the use of any lawful police force in Saorstát Eireann.

So ironically, instead of tightening stuff up, this bit of the Misc Bill sends us to the Minister for Defence instead of the Minister for Justice to import a firearm, and it lessens the sentence for importing a firearm illegally...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Fair point, but a lot of those folks are getting worried about that because they only read the first post in that thread and miss the subsequent comments from DeVore including:
The key phrase in that whole thread is "Misuse of the forum"...

there was lots of other stuff in there as well Sparks, such as this:

any officer or representative of any national or regional association who posts on this forum or the sub forums herein, either explicitly or under pretense or subterfuge to promote their association either explicitly or to promote their associations standpoint by subterfuge

There's quite a lot of things that would fall under promoting standpoints when discussing this kind of stuff.

The post by BOBTHESHOUTER that you trimmed would have fallen under that particular description to my mind.

Sparks

True, but remember that the substance of that warning from Devore was against internecine conflicts. Anything that promotes the sport is fine. That's why all the announcements of all the matches go up in Target Shooting and why there's discussion on how teams are picked and other stuff that would seem to be tied to NGBs without large bills being sent out

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

True, but remember that the substance of that warning from Devore was against internecine conflicts. Anything that promotes the sport is fine. That's why all the announcements of all the matches go up in Target Shooting and why there's discussion on how teams are picked and other stuff that would seem to be tied to NGBs without large bills being sent out

Agreed, but I think people will just stick to the announcements and allow others to copy stuff from websites where there's a possibility of running into the 'standpoints' issue.

It's too vague to take a chance with, one man's policy statement is another man's standpoint etc.

Not worth it IMO.

No offence DeVore, but I can think of better uses for €900

BornToKill

Sparks wrote: »

So ironically, instead of tightening stuff up, this bit of the Misc Bill sends us to the Minister for Defence instead of the Minister for Justice to import a firearm

No, Sparks. 17(2) was repealed by Section 28 of the 1964 Act so it no longer exists and there will be no need to bother Willie O'Dea if you're heading abroad. Try to keep up - you'd think this was complicated! :):)

Sparks

Cheers for that BTK.
/takes two more Hedex pills...

crowsnightmare

They will not be getting on a Ryanair flight to bring it back from anywhere Sparks because Ryanair will not carry firearms as far as I know. Thats why I never fly with Ryanair & anybody who has a firearm should think twice before supporting them!