Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

Ryanair, Aer Lingus, donkey trip across the NI border, the actual carrier wasn't quite the point

(And I don't fly Ryanair for completely different reasons, such as wanting to go to where I want to go to instead of someplace a hundred miles away )

Sparks

The transcripts of today's debate are up on the web now by the way.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

Edit: Bleh, don't post through a headache, you read "21" as "17" ...

Anyway, from the Misc.Bill:


That section 21 in the 1964 Act is this:


And that means that this part of section 17 will now apply:


So ironically, instead of tightening stuff up, this bit of the Misc Bill sends us to the Minister for Defence instead of the Minister for Justice to import a firearm, and it lessens the sentence for importing a firearm illegally...

Funny thing that is what was said in the first place when RRPC ridiculed me as Bob the Builder

Sparks

It's what you said (and I missed the ridiculing or people would have been infracted), but the key distinction here is still between importing a firearm and travelling with your own firearm. I'm not sure if repealing article 21 of the 1964 Act affects that, but I don't see how it could be legal for travelling with your own firearm to become illegal given the EU directives on that w.r.t. the Europass.

BornToKill

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

in fairness to Pat Rabitt he stated that he would by the same logic need to ban the kitchen knife

BTS, Pat Rabbitte said if you carried the logic on handguns to it's conclusion then you'd have to ban shotguns. Dermot Ahern replied saying that to take this logic further you'd end up banning kitchen knives. Link to the exchange here:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20090527.xml&Page=1&Ex=879#N879

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

the key distinction here is still between importing a firearm and travelling with your own firearm.

It took me a bit to find it and apply the relevant amendments that have been made, but here's section 16(4) of the Principal Act (which bans exporting firearms or moving about within the state with firearms), as amended, which I think is relevant to this question:

(4) The offence of contravening the provisions of this section shall not be deemed to have been committed by the holder of a firearm certificate carrying with him from or in Saorstát Eireann or consigning for export the firearm or any ammunition authorised by such certificate to be carried by the holder thereof.

So leaving the state with a firearm which you have a licence for is okay. Which would imply that there should be an equal exemption for returning to the state with that firearm; hence the original article 21 in the 1964 Act. Without that article 21, it would seem that the Firearms Acts could come into conflict with the EU directive that created the Europass. Can anyone else find a legal distinction between importation of a and returning with your firearm?

Grizzly 45

Thought this might be of intrest,as Germany is in a simmilar situation of tightning up its laws and banning different disiplines

Maybe our gun banners in the Dail might like to take note :rolleyes:

The latest news from Germany where they have over 12 million legally held firearms,and appx 14 million estimated illegally held ones and have had now three school shootings.They have come up with the following proposed legislation.

Increase the age where you can shoot on a supervised range from 14 to 18.You can only apply for big calibre pistols when you are over 21 and have been checked out by a head shrinker.Except if you have passed the hunting test, not the sport shooting test where you will be allowed two handguns only for humane dispatch of animals .

Adopt as soon as the technology is practible,biometric locks for gunsafes and possibly in the future for the firearm itself.

Create a central firearms register and database of the gunownership in Germany.Cost around 210 million Euros ,and has been already critiqued by the police forces and the "county councils"[Landrat] who handle the firearms liscensing as a total waste of the taxpayers money,and a do somthing sop. [Imagine the Gardai or our other Govt depts actually saying somthing like this:eek:]

A firearms amnesty until the end of 2009.Thats a genuine amnnesty BTW! Drop it off in the local police station which will have a sealed skip!No questions or names or address.

No unannounced police visits to check are your guns in the safe or not.
It violates the basic constitutional rights of the German citizens home as a castle.Considering that they went thru the 3rd Reich andCommunist East Germany.I am not surprised that that was a no flyer.

NOW,the really intresting bits.
NO BAN on practical shooting! Despite all the same old tripe being brought up that it is combat training,dehumanising etc BS BS .[By the SPD/Greens mostly]
The German Govt has recognised it as a internationally recognised SPORT!!!!!That has NO recogniseable or viable combat training in it's format.Even the pistols are not considerd suitable for "combat use".As they hardly resemble anything used by police or military.
Furthermore Germany has already a ban on genuine Combat shooting,and has had so since 1945! If you want genuine combat/defensive pistol training in Germanygo to Switzerland.

No ban on airsoft or liscensing or registering players or dealers.Recognised as toys,and big kids and weekend warriors.So long as there is no right wing or political involvement in the games,carry on as normal.
Ditto no ban on paintball or laser tag.Despite being the smallest of the"shooting sports",it will be left alone as well.Again recognised as sports nothing else.

Sofar by and large it looks sensible and appropriate response to another tragedy.
Again this isnt set down solidly in stone but the shooting organisations in Germany do have a better listening breif and say and insight with the political parties than we have here.IOW they are involved in the process of law making,not unlike us here where we are just told like a bunch of children what we must do, pay and shut up!:mad:

Seeing that this is a country that had three school shootings,a more rigiours liscensing system than anything ever considerd in the U
K or Ireland,and has 20 times more guns than the Uk and Ireland put together.It kind of makes our Govts response look mean and petty,amaturetic and hamfisted .But sure what can we expect here??:mad::rolleyes:

rrpc

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Funny thing that is what was said in the first place when RRPC ridiculed me as Bob the Builder

Not quite Bob, I missed 1964.21 which was also missed in the quoted document. In any event the whole thing is moot in the face of 91/477/ECC or its Irish equivalent: SI 362 of 1993.

91/477/ECC - Article 5

Member States may not prohibit persons resident within their territories from possessing a weapon acquired in another Member State unless they prohibit the acquisition of the same weapon within their own territories.

S.I. No. 362/1993: EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES (ACQUISITION AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION) REGULATIONS, 1993.

9(2) ( a ) Where a person is granted, or is the holder of, a firearm certificate under the Firearms Acts, he shall be entitled to be issued by the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána for the district in which he resides with—

(i) a European Firearms Pass containing the required particulars; and

(ii) a document stating that the holder of the firearm certificate has the consent of the competent authority of the State, for so long as the certificate remains in force, to any purchase or acquisition by him in another Member State of any firearm or ammunition to which the certificate relates; and an application for the issue of a document falling within clause (i) or (ii) may be made at the same time as an application for a firearm certificate or at any time subsequently while the certificate remains in force.

And just to copper fasten it all:

(3) These Regulations shall be construed as one with the Firearms Acts.

So nobody can go around saying it's just EU law and we can ignore it. It's our law too.

Sparks

The Dail is now convening, we're up on the agenda after a vote on a motion, so I'd guess we'll be starting in 15-20 minutes or so.

PJ Hunter

oatflakes with no milk, difficult to digest first thing in the mourning. is there any laymans understand to publish what is meant and not meant in the bill. lisbon treaty had the same effect, not a soul understood any of it including td's & the euro commissioners. in short, are foreign visitors be it for hunting, target, military (exercises ) to go through the minister and they the minister will decide case by case who ever he or she is at this time, if it green for go. coronation necessary to stage anything foreign now will i imagine be difficult and /or random haphazard bewildering in nature. why so complicated.

Sparks

Lots of shoutiness over various motions (nothing to do with the Misc bill) this morning. No sign of when we're up as yet...

PJ, the Law Reform Commission is supposed to be doing a restatement of the Firearms Acts next year - that's where they take the original 1925 Act and apply all the amendments from all the other acts and come up with a single document, which then legally becomes the new Firearms Act and all the others are struck off the books.

But today? No, not yet - because this bill is a bit of a mess (as if you'd not guessed already!)

Sparks

...and we're up...

Sparks

Deputy Burke starting off, supporting the bill, saying a gun culture must be prevented...

Sparks

is aware that some people think they should be able to have any firearm licenced to them once they pass the preconditions, this is unacceptable, it'd make us into the US.

Sparks

the EU system of buying and then notifying the government you bought a class C/D firearm is unacceptable.

Sparks

Going through the heads of the bill, supporting them all the way.

Sparks

This is basicly rereading the Ministers comments...

Sparks

Thinks it's very important to tackle knife crime, but feels community service is better than a jail sentence for offenders :rolleyes:

Sparks

Whoops, he lost his place and read the same line twice...

Sparks

Law reform commission restatement has been scheduled.
Now moving into EU arrest warrent stuff.

Sparks

Missed his place again and reread another paragraph.

Sparks

Says he's aware of huge problems with gun crime in Tipperary so licenced firearms must be tackled :rolleyes:

Sparks

Going through the rest of the heads of the bill. He's just reading stuff out, there's little here the Minister hasn't said already.

Sparks

And he's done and now Deasy is speaking

Sparks

And straight into handguns. Talking about how he'd heard of people applying for handguns without being in shooting clubs but the Super gave them a licence because they wanted one. And how he asked PQs on learning this (he's now reading out the first answer listing how many were licenced). "The figures speak for themselves" (first time I've heard them lie...)

Sparks

Saying folks were surprised and shocked that handguns were licenced and that people could freely obtain handguns because the Dail all thought they were banned.

Saying that because of a number of legal challanges, licencing of handguns has been liberalised and 1800 licences have been handed out by superintendents, he asked his local garda about it and they said they weren't happy about the lack of guidelines on licencing handguns, that they discouraged applicants but they'd been taken to court and lost (the Deputy thinks this isn't on)

Sparks

talking about the disparity in handgun licencing rates in different districts as if it were a bad thing...

Sparks

The disparity in licence numbers mean that the system is not uniform and that's a bad thing (or, of course, that there aren't any pistol ranges in Dublin city...)

Saying that if it wasn't for the dail questions and the Irish Times coverage, we wouldn't be pursuing a handgun ban now.

Sparks

He followed the debate last week to some extent - some speakers questioned the existence of a handgun culture, but the numbers of licences say there is one, it's grown rapidly and the figures prove this.

Numbers of licences monthly have fallen off since the announcement in November of a handgun ban - some superintendents have stopped giving licences, some haven't (and it's clearly implied that it's bad that they're doing this).

Questioning the lack of a link between licenced handguns and gun crime, saying that the robbery of RFDs prove otherwise.

Sparks

Lots of sensationalist anecdotes so far from Deasy.

He's surprised that those speakers last week didn't mention the feelings of the Gardai, Deasy is taking his lead from senior Gardai in his area who want the ban.

Mention of the PAC appearance by the Commissioner, Deasy says he had a question asked on firearms, which lead to the glock statement, Deasy saying there was a sense of relief in the room that the Commissioner got to answer the question and make the statement on glocks.