Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

nothing scheduled in the dail for this week either. Looks like it's a waiting game. powers that be are probably hoping we all get disillusioned and pack in pistol shooting of our own accord!

Ned, the Order Papers for the Dail aren't published yet (they're generally not published until late the night before).


Also folks, don't forget that once this gets published, that's only the first step in a long line. There's the first stage in the Dail (that's what we're waiting on here), where it's just read out. Then there's the committee stage, then the second stage in the Dail, then it goes to the Seanad where it's read, then goes to the Seanad Committee, then back to the Seanad, then back to the Dail and finally voted on to become law; at any point along the way, it can be massively altered (remember the Criminal Justice Bill 2004? It had more amendments in Committee stage than it had original text, by a factor of two or three!).

bigred

So Sparks, give us a rough guess.. From the day the bill is published, how long before it's enacted/ before we stop getting the run-around from all and sundry.
Obviously, I'd like to be able to rock into the station the day the bill is announced and apply, but are we looking at another few months for it all to become legal? I wouldn't have thought there was legal jurisdiction to stop this based on a statement by a minister (but clearly they think there is).

Grizzly 45

Or...Is there a possibility that they will just shovel it thru with this proposed new legislation that is supposed to be discussed tomrrow in the Dail,Re the "gang culture?" Whats the betting there will be a "full house" in the Dail tomrrow??:rolleyes:

Sparks

@bigred Rough guess? If they rushed it, pushed all-out, cut every corner and guillotined it? 2, maybe 3 months. More likely, they'll try to get it done before August 1 and will fail. Hell, maybe there'll even be an election before then. That might not stop the Bill, but it might stop it ever being commenced (there are more than a few bills that were passed into Acts but never commenced like that).

@Grizzly - that'd be illegal. The Dail can't just shovel stuff about like that.

Grizzly 45

Thats at least somthing then I suppose,that it cant ride in on another bills coat tail.:cool:

chem

So whats the story, with the de facto ban in force? Is that legal? The minister is telling every super not to issue pistol licence, without any law in place:eek:

Somthing smells, said the blindman, to the fishmunger.

bigred

chem wrote: »

So whats the story, with the de facto ban in force? Is that legal? The minister is telling every super not to issue pistol licence, without any law in place:eek:

Somthing smells, said the blindman, to the fishmunger.

Indeed Chem. I'm not sure "cos Dermo told me not to" counts as a refusal reason. I've already missed a heap of the smallbore pistol matches this year and it looks like this season's a write-off at this stage given the lack of progress :mad:

chem

bigred wrote: »

Indeed Chem. I'm not sure "cos Dermo told me not to" counts as a refusal reason. I've already missed a heap of the smallbore pistol matches this year and it looks like this season's a write-off at this stage given the lack of progress :mad:

Same as bigred. Whats the point in putting a law in writing if its already in place:mad: Where are the shooting bodies on this one? And how do you spell BANNANA REPUBLIC

It wasn't me!

chem wrote: »

Same as bigred. Whats the point in putting a law in writing if its already in place:mad: Where are the shooting bodies on this one? And how do you spell BANNANA REPUBLIC

Shooting bodies can't do diddly squat until we see the legislation, and rest assured, we want to see it and are asking when we're going to see it, but we're getting fobbed off the same as everyone else. There is no special treatment for us and you'll see it as soon as we do.

Sparks

chem wrote: »

So whats the story, with the de facto ban in force? Is that legal? The minister is telling every super not to issue pistol licence, without any law in place:eek:

No, he's not.

1. The Minister cannot legally tell a Super to not issue a licence. Neither can anyone else. That's what persona designata means.
2. The letters we keep hearing of are not from the Minister to the Supers ordering them not to issue; they're from the Commissioner to the Supers telling them to advise new applicants of the Minister's speechifying in November, nothing more.
3. The "de facto" ban is the Minister's way of saying that if you get a licence between November and the commencement of the ban in the Misc.Bill, then that licence can be taken away from you. How exactly he plans to do that I don't know. There are ways to do it alright, under existing legislation.

Sparks

Order of business for tomorrow is out, no mention of the Misc.Bill.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

No, he's not.

1. The Minister cannot legally tell a Super to not issue a licence. Neither can anyone else. That's what persona designata means.
2. The letters we keep hearing of are not from the Minister to the Supers ordering them not to issue; they're from the Commissioner to the Supers telling them to advise new applicants of the Minister's speechifying in November, nothing more.
3. The "de facto" ban is the Minister's way of saying that if you get a licence between November and the commencement of the ban in the Misc.Bill, then that licence can be taken away from you. How exactly he plans to do that I don't know. There are ways to do it alright, under existing legislation.

Sparks my super told me he was not allowed process any more pistol licences. And has resieved several "reminding emails" about this.

Anyone else here come up against this? A Poll maybe?

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Sparks my super told me he was not allowed process any more pistol licences. And has resieved several "reminding emails" about this.

I'm not saying he hasn't said that to you Chem. What I'm saying is that the Minister's staff are flat-out saying that no such letters have been sent or would be sent (the Minister doesn't get to direct the operations of the Gardai in that manner on any topic) and that the Supreme Court have stated flat out that noone can give such directions to the Superintendents. It's just plain illegal to do either.

If your Super is telling you otherwise, then he's sorely mistaken and a call to the Firearms Policy Unit by your NGB is called for.

chem

Can you put up a poll please sparks? Just to see if anyone else here has had this problem.

I just like to take things with a pinch of salt, when it comes to how this government govern.

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Can you put up a poll please sparks? Just to see if anyone else here has had this problem.

Done.

Half-cocked

chem wrote: »

And how do you spell BANNANA REPUBLIC

With only 2 'N's. I can never resist the chance to be pedantic.........

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

@Grizzly - that'd be illegal. The Dail can't just shovel stuff about like that.

Yes they very much can. Anybody remember the ban on magic mushrooms? Blink and you'd have missed it.

chem

Half-cocked wrote: »

With only 2 'N's. I can never resist the chance to be pedantic.........

Sorry private joke BAN nana republic :D

Sparks

dresden8 wrote: »

Yes they very much can. Anybody remember the ban on magic mushrooms? Blink and you'd have missed it.

No, they can't - they can rush stuff through with emergency sittings yes, but they can't just take the contents of one bill and drop it into another bill bypassing parliamentary procedure. If they did, the Act could be challenged on constitutional grounds successfully by anyone.

bunny shooter

Don't think my current one has granted ANY at all even before latest fiasco.

BUT he has made it very difficult to get an amendment sorted

Can't vote in current poll as I can't honestly answer either option

foxhunter

chem wrote: »

Sparks my super told me he was not allowed process any more pistol licences. And has resieved several "reminding emails" about this.

Anyone else here come up against this? A Poll maybe?

+1 on that the local seargant down here has been told the same .
He told me about it 3 to 4 months ago .
My brother has an application in for a .22 buckmark since november and no sign of anything yet which is strange because he already has a 9mm.

Half-cocked

chem wrote: »

Sorry private joke BAN nana republic :D

That one went right over my head!!!

daveob007

Still no news on it as yet.
They are busy with the other criminal bill at the moment,the one that allows covert spying and the like.
Then they will probably be focusing on the upcoming elections.
One thing is for sure though,they will have to have it done by july 31st as this is firearm cert renewal time and some of the new stuff might have to be done before this date.
They are being very unfair to dealers and handgun owners who want to trade or upgrade their guns.
The handgun trade is dead at the moment due to the delay and no dealer will even concider taking a trade in.
Our guns will be vintage and worth a fortune by the time they sort it.

daveob007

No panic lads,hold on to your pistols untill you are told otherwise/or not.
At least those of us who have them are under no threat for the moment and by the looks of it this thing will take forever.
p.s. any new on the 3 year licence?? is that going ahead this year or is it a part of the long long long awaited new legislation????
I just feel sorry for those who have not yet got their handgun licences yet,they will miss a fair few contests.
many of our guns will be antiques by the time this s***e is sorted.
They could be worth 10 times their current value.

milkerman

So it appears that my case is not just an isolated incident. Is this an issue that the FCP could address? Ater all, at this time there is no new legislation in place. The only thing we have is an aspirational, politically motivated statement from the Minister. Sparks is conservative in his estimate for the timeframe for new legislation and we cant forget the Dail's Summer break just round the corner.
The local Garda Divisions were not contacted by the Dept directly. My FO tells me the reminders were issued by Garda HQ (presumably the Garda Commissioner). Is this an example of Garda Management assuming a legislative role? Or in other words, writing the rules as they go along?
So, can our various representative groups and/or the FCP at least request clarification of the CURRENT situation and deal with new legislation when or if it is ever put in place?

Sparks

The best way to deal with this milkerman, starts with the various people who've been denied applications informing their respective NGBs and asking for the Garda FPU to be contacted by the NGBs. The FPU's job is then to contact the local Superintendent and point out what the law actually is in this case. If they continue to ignore it after that, well, then stuff gets messy.

Sparks

Okay folks, it's finally hit the Dail Order of Business:

9a. Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 — Order for Second Stage.

Bill entitled an Act to give further effect to the Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on the European arrest warrant and the surrender procedures between Member States, and to give effect to the Council Decision 2007/533/JHA of 12 June 2007 on the establishment, operation and use of the second generation Schengen
Information System, and for those and other purposes to amend the European Arrest Warrant Act 2003, extend the application of the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003 and amend the Extradition Act 1965, to amend the law relating to the regulation and control of firearms and ammunition and for that and other purposes to amend the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2007, to amend certain other enactment

No further details are up yet, but this puts it on the calendar at least. They could get to it in the next few days and then we'll see what we're dealing with.

Ned Muldhoon

new bill pubished on the oireachtas website - does not make very good reading

BOBTHESHOOTER

Here is is in all its glory, so hot I have not had time to read it.

Bob

BOBTHESHOOTER

Hot off the press

Practical prohibited!

Power to prohibit firearms of a certain criteria (pistols gone!)

Reloading kicked to touch ( all that good practical work in the 2006 wasted)

Significant restictions on airsoft!!!

Everyone effected and not for the good.