Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

PJ Hunter

daveob007 wrote: »

just looked at that and found nothing interesting for shooters.

don't judge books by what's on front of the cover daveob007,aren't they invited to the fcp meetings, suppose many shotgun and .22 lads are ifa members or have there permissions off the farmer who is.:) all i'm saying is, they cut out deals in brussels with the best of them,they have one of the best organasations in he country.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

'Where authorised' appears in both the quotes you posted from the directive.

Yes, and we're authorised by our licences and 91/477/EEC.
And that mechanism is controlled by the requirement to have the licence.

There is no requirement whatsoever to ban personal imports, not under this directive nor under it's amendment, nor because of past experience. We've had no incidents I'm aware of where a shooter buying in his licenced firearm from abroad has been a problem for anyone (with the possible exception of firearms dealers who'd prefer to have the business, but for some shooters - like, say, NTSA shooters - there's not even that exception because the majority of dealers won't keep our stuff in stock as it's not cost-effective to do so). And if the argument is that we need this because the licencing mechanism isn't sufficient control, then that's the Minister saying he can't trust the Gardai to follow the law!

daveob007

As far as internet buying is concerned,up to a few years ago it was possible to purchase airsoft/air rifles/air pistols/blank firers etc on the net from the U.K.
this is no longer the case since the government there cracked down on such activities.
you can still buy them from some dealers but you must collect them from the store in person, airsoft guns are now only allowed in bright colours which do not look like a firearm.
dont know whether this type of buying has stopped because of uk or eu policy.
you can still buy any accessories you want over the net.
AND BACK TO THE NEW BILL.
Whats the next stage after thursdays debate??

daveob007

PJ Hunter wrote: »

don't judge books by what's on front of the cover daveob007,aren't they invited to the fcp meetings, suppose many shotgun and .22 lads are fia members or have there permissions off the farmer who is.:) all i'm saying is, they cut out deals in brussels with the best of them,they have one of the best organasations in he country.

i see where you are coming from now.
the farmer i know is also concerned about his .223 rifle which he uses for foxes as are some of his friends.
this new bill could come down on everyone at some point.

PJ Hunter

daveob007 wrote: »

i see where you are coming from now.
the farmer i know is also concerned about his .223 rifle which he uses for foxes as are some of his friends.
this new bill could come down on everyone at some point.

that's right, sporting farmers amongst them, regular clay busters known to stock up over the border, import back south:o http://www.borderwise.ie/

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

AND BACK TO THE NEW BILL.
Whats the next stage after thursdays debate??

Thursday's not actually a debate, it's a committee session. After that, it goes back to the Dail then it's forwarded to the Senate, then to the Senate Committee, then back to the Senate then back to the Dail for the final vote and then on to the President, and then the Minister has to issue an order to enact the legislation (usually done section-by-section).

Yeah, there's a few steps.

Also, I've been told by the DoJ that the reading of the character references requirement isn't correct - I went and dug up the Minister's speech to the Gardai at Templemore and it turns out that the Times reported it incorrectly; he didn't say it'd be made a blanket precondition, or that it'd be part of the Misc. Bill - the Times seems to have muddled up an earlier part of the speech about the 2006 Act and the later part of the speech about the Misc. Bill. The DoJ say the intent is not to require all applicants to provide character references, that it's still being left to the discretion of the Superintendents with the intent that it only be used in isolated cases.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, and we're authorised by our licences and 91/477/EEC. And that mechanism is controlled by the requirement to have the licence.

Not necessarily. That directive was not written for Ireland only, there are firearms possessed on authorisation and on declaration in the rest of Europe, so clearly 'authorisation' does not mean licence in this context.[/quote]

There is no requirement whatsoever to ban personal imports, not under this directive nor under it's amendment, nor because of past experience.

There's no requirement to ban imports, but that doesn't mean that there's a 'right' to import either. If there was such a blanket right, the word 'possession' would not have been used.

We've had no incidents I'm aware of where a shooter buying in his licenced firearm from abroad has been a problem for anyone

Assuming that you are aware of everything to do with licensing in this country.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

There's no requirement to ban imports, but that doesn't mean that there's a 'right' to import either.

Well, there's very few 'rights', but the way our system works is that if it's not specifically prohibited, you can do it ('rights' don't really come into it until you're looking at what the state can't do).

Also, this was something else the DoJ mentioned - their intent is not to ban personal imports where you go and get the firearm you have a licence for, their intent is to ban distance imports where you order over the net and have it posted to you.

However, the intent and the wording don't match up - there may be further amendments on Thursday as a result (but there are no guarantees of that, which they were at pains to point out).

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Assuming that you are aware of everything to do with licensing in this country.

Ah now, in fairness. I don't know of any proof that little gray aliens were found at Roswell either, but my not being aware of everything to do with the US Air Force doesn't mean there actually were any found

daveob007

Sparks wrote: »

Thursday's not actually a debate, it's a committee session. After that, it goes back to the Dail then it's forwarded to the Senate, then to the Senate Committee, then back to the Senate then back to the Dail for the final vote and then on to the President, and then the Minister has to issue an order to enact the legislation (usually done section-by-section).

Yeah, there's a few steps.

Also, I've been told by the DoJ that the reading of the character references requirement isn't correct - I went and dug up the Minister's speech to the Gardai at Templemore and it turns out that the Times reported it incorrectly; he didn't say it'd be made a blanket precondition, or that it'd be part of the Misc. Bill - the Times seems to have muddled up an earlier part of the speech about the 2006 Act and the later part of the speech about the Misc. Bill. The DoJ say the intent is not to require all applicants to provide character references, that it's still being left to the discretion of the Superintendents with the intent that it only be used in isolated cases.

with all those steps and hopefully voted against by fg and labour its unlikely to pass before the 31st july.
dont be surprised if we have to licence our sporting firearms as normal for the year.
we live in hope

BornToKill

Sparks wrote: »

As reported by the Times:From a speech given to the Garda graduates at templemore this year.

Looks like the Irish Times slipped up a bit then in reporting a requirement to provide referees as a requirement to provide references. Here is a link to primary material; the actual speech -

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Address%20by%20Mr.%20Dermot%20Ahern%20T.D.,Minister%20for%20Justice,%20Equality%20and%20Law%20Reform%20on%20the%20occasion%20of%20the%20Graduation%20of%20Reserve%20Members%20of%20An%20Garda%20S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na%20at%20the%20Garda%20College,%20Templemore%2014th%20May%202009

"This will enable us to introduce a new three year licence including the power to allow a Superintendent to enquire into an applicant’s medical background and ask for character referees."

bunny shooter

chem wrote: »

Id say, it would be frowned on if anything bunny :pac: :D:D

True. People see muppets from RDF/FCA do stupid things with weapons and presume we are all the same

Fortunately, some of us actually know what we're doing :cool:

chem

bunny shooter wrote: »

True. People see muppets from RDF/FCA do stupid things with weapons and presume we are all the same

Fortunately, some of us actually know what we're doing :cool:

True bunny:D As a formour 3 star myself in the RDF. I had one lad fire off a full mag of blanks from his FN right in my ear in the glen :eek: We were doing ambush training and he had the muzzle beside my ear when he pulled the trigger:mad: I near killed the man :mad:

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote:

True. People see muppets from RDF/FCA do stupid things with weapons and presume we are all the same

Fortunately, some of us actually know what we're doing

chem wrote: »

True bunny:D As a formour 3 star myself in the RDF. I had one lad fire off a full mag of blanks from his FN right in my ear in the glen :eek: We were doing ambush training and he had the muzzle beside my ear when he pulled the trigger:mad: I near killed the man :mad:

:eek:

Good grief lads, if your point is that RDF/FCA training is an acceptable standard, you need to try harder.

rowa

i have read all the coverage on here and in the media about the ban which like everyone else has me worried , especially as i have three pistols at the moment which i can ill afford to have confiscated , does ahern also intend to ban air pistols too or is it a blanket ban on all short barreled firearms ?
my point is what harm could there be in licencing air powered 6ft/lb target pistols , they are of zero value to criminals , and anyone intent on causing harm to another human being , and they would let the target shooting continue ,
the gardai would know exactly where they are and who has them and i don't think they'd appeal to the "cowboy" shooter either .
is it an all or nothing scenario ?

tonysopprano

Just goes to show what the right approach, to the right people, and in the right way.(in no way taking all the plaudits):p

Long live democracy and people power. Hot off the press from Labour and Fine Gael.

Here's hoping we can get them passed on Thursday.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=11787&&CatID=59

PDF at bottom of the page.

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

i have read all the coverage on here and in the media about the ban which like everyone else has me worried , especially as i have three pistols at the moment which i can ill afford to have confiscated , does ahern also intend to ban air pistols too or is it a blanket ban on all short barreled firearms ?
my point is what harm could there be in licencing air powered 6ft/lb target pistols , they are of zero value to criminals , and anyone intent on causing harm to another human being , and they would let the target shooting continue ,
the gardai would know exactly where they are and who has them and i don't think they'd appeal to the "cowboy" shooter either .
is it an all or nothing scenario ?

No offence Rowa, but where have you been for the last six months?

Are you a member of a club/association? Do you not talk to anyone?

Sorry, but I just find it strange that someone with three pistols knows absolutely nothing about upcoming legislation that's been talked about since November last year.

You need to read this thread. Not the whole thing, but certainly the last 10 pages or so back to when the legislation was published.

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

Just goes to show what the right approach, to the right people, and in the right way.(in no way taking all the plaudits):p

Long live democracy and people power. Hot off the press from Labour and Fine Gael.

Here's hoping we can get them passed on Thursday.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=11787&&CatID=59

PDF at bottom of the page.

I take it you're referring to the amendments to section 29? Presumably these amendments will make practical shooting possible in controlled circumstances with the Minister's say so.

If they get through, well done to all concerned. Even if not, well done on getting them tabled anyway. :cool:

Grizzly 45

Lads,unless I am reading a wrong link.All I can find in the amendemts section is stuff relating to tax clearences for RFDs,some fancy rewording ,and a load about custody,etc.It doesnt look like a load to get all exited about.
Where are you seeing all this about practical etc???

BornToKill

It's Section 29 - 18 and 19 below. Proposed amendments allow practical to continue under regulation.

SECTION 29
17. In page 23, before section 29, to insert the following new section:
29.—Section 4B (inserted by section 34 of the Act of 2006) of the Principal Act is
amended in subsection (2)(a) by the substitution for “authorisation” of
“certification”.”.
—An tAire Dlí agus Cirt, Comhionannais agus Athchóirithe Dlí.
18. In page 23, line 31, after “shooting” to insert the following:
“save and except any firearm used for legitimate and controlled sporting purposes
as may be specified in Regulations”.
—Charles Flanagan.
19. In page 23, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:
“(2) (a) Subsection (1) does not apply to the facilitation or engagement in the
use of a firearm in accordance with regulations made by the Minister
under this subsection.
(b) Regulations under this subsection shall provide for conditions regarding
licensing, supervision, safety, security of firearms and such other matters
as are in the Minister’s opinion appropriate for the purpose of promoting
public safety.”.
—Pat Rabbitte.

tonysopprano

3

“Amendment to
section 2 of
Principal Act.
“Amendment to
section 3A of
Principal Act.
“Issue of
guidelines by
Minister and
Commissioner.

[ SECTION 29 ]
SECTION 29

17. In page 23, before section 29, to insert the following new section:
29.—Section 4B (inserted by section 34 of the Act of 2006) of the Principal Act is
amended in subsection (2)(a) by the substitution for “authorisation” of
“certification”.”.
—An tAire Dlí agus Cirt, Comhionannais agus Athchóirithe Dlí.

18. In page 23, line 31, after “shooting” to insert the following:
“save and except any firearm used for legitimate and controlled sporting purposes
as may be specified in Regulations”.
—Charles Flanagan.

19. In page 23, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:
“(2) (a) Subsection (1) does not apply to the facilitation or engagement in the
use of a firearm in accordance with regulations made by the Minister
under this subsection.
(b) Regulations under this subsection shall provide for conditions regarding
licensing, supervision, safety, security of firearms and such other matters
as are in the Minister’s opinion appropriate for the purpose of promoting
public safety.”.
—Pat Rabbitte.

rowa

rrpc wrote: »

No offence Rowa, but where have you been for the last six months?

Are you a member of a club/association? Do you not talk to anyone?

Sorry, but I just find it strange that someone with three pistols knows absolutely nothing about upcoming legislation that's been talked about since November last year.

You need to read this thread. Not the whole thing, but certainly the last 10 pages or so back to when the legislation was published.

i have been at the range nearly every weekend for the last 6 months rrpc and have talked to both declan keogh and declan cahill directly as well as two firearms dealers i would call friends , all i have heard is " wait and see " , i do find it offensive that you say i know absolutely nothing about the legislation , i have read it on the nasrpc website , but as i am not a quailfied lawyer it is unclear to me , as i understand it if you have a pistol before november last year you are safe for now but will probabily face tightening licencing conditions in the future , there is a possibility of getting a licence for a rimfire but no chance for a centrefire pistol ,all i asked was is there not an excemption that could be made for match and target type air pistols to allow the sport to continue and allow the facilities expensively built by gunclubs to remain in use ?

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

:eek:

Good grief lads, if your point is that RDF/FCA training is an acceptable standard, you need to try harder.

As with every other facet of life there are those who just can't or won't listen & learn :rolleyes:

chem

tonysopprano wrote: »

Just goes to show what the right approach, to the right people, and in the right way.(in no way taking all the plaudits):p

Long live democracy and people power. Hot off the press from Labour and Fine Gael.

Here's hoping we can get them passed on Thursday.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=11787&&CatID=59

PDF at bottom of the page.

Is that it? Are these the only proposed changes?

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

i have been at the range nearly every weekend for the last 6 months rrpc and have talked to both declan keogh and declan cahill directly as well as two firearms dealers i would call friends , all i have heard is " wait and see " , i do find it offensive that you say i know absolutely nothing about the legislation , i have read it on the nasrpc website , but as i am not a quailfied lawyer it is unclear to me , as i understand it if you have a pistol before november last year you are safe for now but will probabily face tightening licencing conditions in the future , there is a possibility of getting a licence for a rimfire but no chance for a centrefire pistol ,all i asked was is there not an excemption that could be made for match and target type air pistols to allow the sport to continue and allow the facilities expensively built by gunclubs to remain in use ?

I apologise if you took offence, I was genuinely surprised that you didn't know what was happening. I don't know if you took my advice on reading the last bit of this thread, but basically the situation is as follows:

The Minister has decided that he doesn't like (a) full bore pistol shooting, (b) practical shooting of any kind and (c) the development of what he refers to as a handgun culture; the latter seeming to mean that he doesn't like the fact that there are almost 2000 licensed handguns in the state.

He has produced legislation (the Bill this thread is titled for) which will ban practical shooting (making it a criminal offence :eek:), and prevent any more fullbore pistols being licensed. When he made his statement on the 18th November he said there would be no more licences and so in the bill there's also a clause which will revoke any licences applied for and issued after that date. The only exception he's made is to the currently unrestricted pistols designed for Olympic competition.

There's other stuff in the bill, but those are the heaadline ones. I'm very surprised that the individuals you named were unable to tell you all this.

Darr

Folks through contact with some members of ff it has come to light that most members of FF were A)NOT aware there is a strong feeling opposing the bill from shooters B)that Minister Ahern has created bad feeling towards FF. So either people have been mailing Ahern directly and he hasnt been passing on the message or we havent been contacting the right people .
I would urge you today to pick up the phone and voice your feelings on the MPB .
Thanks
Darr

Sikamick

Quote[rrpc]There's other stuff in the bill, but those are the headline ones. I'm very surprised that the individuals you named were unable to tell you all this.

+1 on that rrpc


Sikamick

rowa

rrpc wrote: »

I apologise if you took offence, I was genuinely surprised that you didn't know what was happening. I don't know if you took my advice on reading the last bit of this thread, but basically the situation is as follows:

The Minister has decided that he doesn't like (a) full bore pistol shooting, (b) practical shooting of any kind and (c) the development of what he refers to as a handgun culture; the latter seeming to mean that he doesn't like the fact that there are almost 2000 licensed handguns in the state.

He has produced legislation (the Bill this thread is titled for) which will ban practical shooting (making it a criminal offence :eek:), and prevent any more fullbore pistols being licensed. When he made his statement on the 18th November he said there would be no more licences and so in the bill there's also a clause which will revoke any licences applied for and issued after that date. The only exception he's made is to the currently unrestricted pistols designed for Olympic competition.

There's other stuff in the bill, but those are the heaadline ones. I'm very surprised that the individuals you named were unable to tell you all this.

i did know all this rrpc and have been in contact today with one of said representatives , they are like everyone else and don't know what this minister is going to chuck our direction next as i believe the bill has several open ended clauses saying the minister can ban at anytime anthing he feels is a danger to the public , what i said in my original post is can air pistols not continue to be licenced in the same manner as .22 rifles and shotguns due to there low muzzel energy and they being of no use for any task other than target shooting , i don't see any other party objecting to the ban or if they are its only because they want to do it when they get into power after the next election .

Sparks

I'll hold off on commenting on your sources of information rowa, except to tell you to find more knowledgeable ones (well, than one of them at least), or to just call up the department and ask. They're not the CIA y'know, they will talk to lowly mortals and answer questions...

rowa wrote: »

what i said in my original post is can air pistols not continue to be licenced in the same manner as .22 rifles and shotguns due to there low muzzel energy and they being of no use for any task other than target shooting

Air pistols will be licenced in the same manner as .22 rifles, air rifles, shotguns and .22 pistols. That's the plan at least, and so far as I know, no-one's even slightly worried about airguns. They're just not seen as being worth worrying about by the DoJ.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

I'll hold off on commenting on your sources of information rowa, except to tell you to find more knowledgeable ones (well, than one of them at least), or to just call up the department and ask. They're not the CIA y'know, they will talk to lowly mortals and answer questions...
Air pistols will be licenced in the same manner as .22 rifles, air rifles, shotguns and .22 pistols. That's the plan at least, and so far as I know, no-one's even slightly worried about airguns. They're just not seen as being worth worrying about by the DoJ.

Minister might be more appropriate under the circumstances.