Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

i did know all this rrpc and have been in contact today with one of said representatives , they are like everyone else and don't know what this minister is going to chuck our direction next as i believe the bill has several open ended clauses saying the minister can ban at anytime anthing he feels is a danger to the public , what i said in my original post is can air pistols not continue to be licenced in the same manner as .22 rifles and shotguns due to there low muzzel energy and they being of no use for any task other than target shooting , i don't see any other party objecting to the ban or if they are its only because they want to do it when they get into power after the next election .

Your original query is about air pistols and that's answered in the exception made by the Minister in the bill which exempted Firearms suitable for use in Olympic competition (which include air pistols).

Not knowing what pistol models you actually own, I can' tell you any more than that, but rather than get into specifics in any case, there was also an exception for firearms already owned and held before November 2008.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Minister might be more appropriate under the circumstances.

True, but it's harder to find out what he thinks about them...

chem

Lads. Are the only changes to be made tomorrow the ones posted here?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=11787&&CatID=59

Or will there be more changes proposed tomorrow at the sitting? Nice to see Practical pistol getting a ray of hope. But not much good if noone else can buy fullbore pistols :mad:

rrpc

chem wrote: »

Lads. Are the only changes to be made tomorrow the ones posted here?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=11787&&CatID=59

Or will there be more changes proposed tomorrow at the sitting? Nice to see Practical pistol getting a ray of hope. But not much good if noone else can buy fullbore pistols :mad:

Funny, that struck me as well Chem. What's the point of the amendments if nobody new can take part?

I do know that a lot of very hard work is being done by the NASRPC, and when I say very hard I mean waaay above the call of duty for voluntary people.

J.R.

Mary O'Rourke (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)

Question 170: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make changes to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in order to allow sports people to practice their sport. [23806/09]

Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)

The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 is scheduled for Committee Stage on 18 June 2009.

The proposals in this Bill relating to the control of firearms are primarily concerned with public safety and the modernising of the licensing system. As I have said previously, my proposals will not impinge adversely on the activities of the vast majority of licensed firearms holders in this country: I recognise that those firearms holders pursue their legitimate interests in a law abiding way.

The Bill does contain, however, a de facto ban on handguns because the Government has made it clear that it does not wish a handgun culture to take hold here. Handguns are inherently different because they are easy to conceal, can often discharge a large number of bullets rapidly and feature so frequently in gun rampages. I also intend to specifically prohibit a form of target shooting known as practical or dynamic shooting. This type of shooting involves firearms being used in simulated combat or combat training and is anathema to most target shooters. In so far as it is akin to police and military tactical training it is an undesirable activity not rooted in any tradition in Ireland and one which should not have any place in our society.

I met with the Firearms Consultative Panel last week. It is clear that there are some medium and longer term strategic and developmental issues for shooting sports in Ireland and I intend to write to the Minister for Arts, Sports & Tourism in relation to a number of the points raised.

Hivemind187

J.R. wrote: »

Mary O'Rourke (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)

Question 170: To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make changes to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in order to allow sports people to practice their sport. [23806/09]

Dermot Ahern (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Louth, Fianna Fail)

The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009 is scheduled for Committee Stage on 18 June 2009.

The proposals in this Bill relating to the control of firearms are primarily concerned with public safety and the modernising of the licensing system. As I have said previously, my proposals will not impinge adversely on the activities of the vast majority of licensed firearms holders in this country: I recognise that those firearms holders pursue their legitimate interests in a law abiding way.

The Bill does contain, however, a de facto ban on handguns because the Government has made it clear that it does not wish a handgun culture to take hold here. Handguns are inherently different because they are easy to conceal, can often discharge a large number of bullets rapidly and feature so frequently in gun rampages. I also intend to specifically prohibit a form of target shooting known as practical or dynamic shooting. This type of shooting involves firearms being used in simulated combat or combat training and is anathema to most target shooters. In so far as it is akin to police and military tactical training it is an undesirable activity not rooted in any tradition in Ireland and one which should not have any place in our society.

I met with the Firearms Consultative Panel last week. It is clear that there are some medium and longer term strategic and developmental issues for shooting sports in Ireland and I intend to write to the Minister for Arts, Sports & Tourism in relation to a number of the points raised.

You know ... I think this is treading awful close to what is called (in journo circles anyway) class libel.

The essential point remains that the ministers remarks are deliberately misleading, flagrantly biassed and implies that persons owning pistols for the purposes of practical shooting or fullbore target shooting are up to no good.

One could also point out that the minister is repeating the same things over and over again expecting a different response than instant rebuttle with actual facts, figures and logic. Is it not considered to be a catagorical sign of madness to repeat the same action over and over expecting a different result?

... at this point however it appears that we may all be on the wrong side of the rubber wall paper.

BornToKill

Hivemind187 wrote: »

You know ... I think this is treading awful close to what is called (in journo circles anyway) class libel.

The essential point remains that the ministers remarks are deliberately misleading, flagrantly biassed and implies that persons owning pistols for the purposes of practical shooting or fullbore target shooting are up to no good.

One could also point out that the minister is repeating the same things over and over again expecting a different response than instant rebuttle with actual facts, figures and logic. Is it not considered to be a catagorical sign of madness to repeat the same action over and over expecting a different result?

... at this point however it appears that we may all be on the wrong side of the rubber wall paper.

Hivemind, parliamentary privilege precludes an action of the kind you are suggesting on defamation. Nothwithstanding that, I doubt there are substantive grounds anyway. How are the remarks in the answer 'deliberately misleading'? And some people have been up to no good. There have been articles in the ISD and the NARGC magazine to that effect.

Grizzly 45

Trouble is he is saying it in the Dail.So it doesnt count as libel.:(

Obsessive compulsive disorder is what it looks like from a laymans POV.
Either that or an absolutely cruddy speech writer,or he just thinks we are very forgetful.:rolleyes:.

So sofar,we have still a handgun ban:(.
Some tinkering with gun dealers requirements:(
Some faffing about with airsoft.:(
A badly worded and likely to be challanged under the contradictions of the act about practical.:(
All in all no better off than before.:mad:

rrpc

J.R. wrote: »

I met with the Firearms Consultative Panel last week. It is clear that there are some medium and longer term strategic and developmental issues for shooting sports in Ireland and I intend to write to the Minister for Arts, Sports & Tourism in relation to a number of the points raised.

It may be my innate optimism, but that statement is the most positive thing I've heard this Minister make about the shooting sports. I'm not trying to dispel your doom and gloom lads, but so far the Minister has stuck to his word, so if he's says he's going to do something positive, his track record so far says he'll follow up.

Optimistic interval over, as you were

Hivemind187

BornToKill wrote: »

Hivemind, parliamentary privilege precludes an action of the kind you are suggesting on defamation. Nothwithstanding that, I doubt there are substantive grounds anyway. How are the remarks in the answer 'deliberately misleading'? And some people have been up to no good. There have been articles in the ISD and the NARGC magazine to that effect.

I didnt say he was actually committing libel, just that this kind of thing is treading very close to it. So far the minister has shown no compunction about saying in public the same things he has said in the Dail.

The remarks are misleading because they suggest the same thing you did (and I have taken the liberty of highlighting in your response). There are "some" people. This is not representative of the whole. The minsiter did not use the term "some". He referred to practical pistol as "combat training", which it is not (as has been refutted again and again on this board). He further implies that those involved with practical pistol are not "law abiding". Its not exactly subtle either.

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

I doubt there are substantive grounds anyway. How are the remarks in the answer 'deliberately misleading'?

I'd hazard a guess that the repeated sentiment that "Handguns are inherently different because they are easy to conceal, can often discharge a large number of bullets rapidly and feature so frequently in gun rampages." is what leads to licenced handgun owners feeling that they're the subject of libel by innuendo in statements like that, especially immediately after stating that the purpose of the ban is not public safety and acknowledging that target shooters are law-abiding people.

RRPC, I know what you mean, but you're asking for optimism about the Minister for Sport now as well

BornToKill

Hivemind187 wrote: »

treading very close ... they suggest ... as has been refutted again and again on this board...implies that

Yeah, let's have a whip-around right now. That's a cast-iron no-win-no-fee class libel right there okay.

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

That's a cast-iron no-win-no-fee class libel right there okay.

As much as that has me grinning, even you've got to acknowlege BTK that there's little logic in saying the ban is not about public safety then immediately saying that handguns are to be banned for public safety reasons...

Rovi

Dermot Ahern wrote:

... it is an undesirable activity not rooted in any tradition in Ireland and one which should not have any place in our society.

Rule 42 lives on...

daveob007

I sent a mail to niall collins yesterday as requested.
have had no reponse from anyone in relation to this after sending many mails in the past few weeks.
has anyone got any sort of response??
next dail stage is up today

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

next dail stage is up today

It's on at the moment actually. We've no live broadcast of it, but Rovi's there and I think there are a few others as well, so we'll hear of it before the transcripts go up on the web.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

It's on at the moment actually. We've no live broadcast of it, but Rovi's there and I think there are a few others as well, so we'll hear of it before the transcripts go up on the web.

You can actually view a web broadcast of it. It's on the split screen, but there's no sound. The Minister is doing a lot of talking but there's a lot more in this bill then just firearms you have to remember.

daveob007

I know the answer to this is somewhere in the thread but i need to ask again.

can i buy and licence a .22 rimfire pistol at present,are they among the non restriced list.
or should i wait and see what happens with the bill.
will my licence if granted be revoked if the new bill goes ahead??/
thanks

rrpc

daveob007 wrote: »

I know the answer to this is somewhere in the thread but i need to ask again.

can i buy and licence a .22 rimfire pistol at present,are they among the non restriced list.
or should i wait and see what happens with the bill.
will my licence if granted be revoked if the new bill goes ahead??/
thanks

Not all rimfires are unrestricted, just the ones 'designed' for use in Olympic competition.

Darr

anyone hear how it went this AM yet ?.
while not hopeful the suspense is killing me

Darr

rrpc

Darr wrote: »

anyone hear how it went this AM yet ?.
while not hopeful the suspense is killing me

Darr

Best wait for the transcript to appear on the Oireachtas website. Anything I've heard so far has turned out to be untrue.

Here's the link for the transcript: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/CommitteeMenu.aspx?Dail=30&Cid=JU

It'll probably be up there on Monday, it seems to take about two working days to get it transcribed and uploaded.

There may be edited highlights on Oireachtas report tonight. That's at 23:35 on RTE1.

Sparks

Darr wrote: »

anyone hear how it went this AM yet ?.

Not yet, and as rrpc said it'll take a day or three for the transcripts to come out, but Rovi was going there this morning so we might get an eye-witness summary report when he gets home tonight, assuming he hasn't fifty million other things landed on him in the meantime.

daveob007

just watching it on tv in the afternoon, just caught the words (sent back for ammendment)
it was in relation to some part of the cjmp bill as far as i know.
dont quote me on that but i am sure thats what i heard.
hopefully thats right anyway.

Rovi

Hi all, finally made it back from the big shmoke.

Today was both a revelation, and a sobering experience; more than once, I found myself thinking of the old quote attributed to Otto von Bismark:
“Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made.”

Anyhow, I’m far from the best note-taker and I certainly lag a long way behind Sparks when it comes to the live blogging, so I don’t propose to even attempt to give a blow-by-blow account with accurate quotes; instead, I’ll give my impressions and thoughts on the proceedings and leave the more detailed critique until the minutes are published.

The Minister was served by a battalion of civil servants who spent their time whispering in his ear or passing him written notes, or leaving and entering the committee room at irregular intervals carrying important looking bundles of documents.

Charlie Flanagan (FG), Pat Rabbitte (LAB), Aengus Ó Snodaigh (SF), and another gentleman whose name I missed, put forward the opposition arguments and proposed amendments.

Most of the early sections of the Bill went through unopposed or with minimal debate, but the firearms sections took a considerable length of time.

Most of the debate centred on handguns, with the opposition spokespersons pressing the Minister to produce evidence of the ‘gun culture’ to which he frequently alludes, and questioning his motives and reasoning on his determination to outlaw an international sport

The Minister countered that he was in possession of ‘anecdotal’ evidence to which he was privy as Minister for Justice which had led him to form his opinion, and he went on to read out a description of IPSC shooting that was simply breathtaking in its inaccuracy and erroneousness.
I hesitate to repeat it here, as it was so wildly at variance with reality that I wasn’t sure if I’d heard it correctly; I eagerly await the minutes to clarify this point.
There were others present who were taking accurate notes, so I'll be able to check with them anyway.
If I’m correct on the above, I have to wonder if the Minister knows that whoever is feeding him this ‘information’ is either utterly ignorant of the subject, or is deliberately attempting to make him appear foolish?

The old buzzword “Magnum” got an airing too, in a context that strongly suggests that the Minister or his advisors aren’t entirely au-fait with the correct use of the term; and “Glock” also got a mention, as appears to be compulsory on these occasions.

There was some sort of muddled talk about how the "concealability" of legally held handguns is a cause for deep concern in the upper echelons of the Gardaí, but I’ll need to see the minutes to make some sort of sense out of that.

The Minister reiterated several times that he has the support of the FCP in his position on these matters, and at one point proudly announced that he has received a round of applause at the recent meeting.

An opinion piece in a recent Irish Shooter’s Digest was referred to several times in support of the Minister’s position, and it appears to have almost taken on the attributes of holy writ and is now apparently acceptable as hard evidence.


The opposition amendments to the firearms sections were withdrawn, to be re-submitted at a later stage of the process.


That’s about all my imperfect memory and patchy notes can gather together for the moment, the publication of the minutes will allow a much more detailed account.

As of now, the Minister is holding firm to his position on handguns and certain shooting sports.

Grizzly 45

Anecdotal evidence,muddled descriptions of practical pistol,"concealability of legally held handguns...Are criminally held ones,unconcealable somhow??.....If anyone was trying to build a case from this from a civillian standpoint.You wouldnt even get a hearing in a district court,before a Judge would have you flung out of the court for wasting court time.
Yet because this is a minister for justice,[a former solicitor],this is now in a Dail comittee hearing and accepted as gospel....The mind boggles.:eek::mad:
What opinion piece in ISD are they referring to?Could anyone post this here ?TIA

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

What opinion piece in ISD are they referring to?

We'll have to wait for the transcripts to be sure, but I'd feel comfortable hazarding a guess that they were referring to one of Des Crofton's pieces on pistol ownership.

/mutters about how the ISD should have been shut down years ago before this happened.

daveob007

Cant wait to read those trancripts and what they said about the GLOCK
of which i have.
The last time i looked at it there were no horns sprouting from it or cloven hoofs.
The minister is taking the hard line approach alright and would love to know what in the shooters digest he was referring to.
The last i read in it was critical of the minister.
So whats the next stage?

Half-cocked

Rovi wrote: »

The Minister reiterated several times that he has the support of the FCP in his position on these matters, and at one point proudly announced that he has received a round of applause at the recent meeting.

I heard the shooting Associations raised a lot of concerns about the Bill at the recent meeting but it sounds like the Minister has conveniently forgotten that. Whats this about a round of applause? Sure it wasn't a slow hand clap? Anyway, considering the FCP is partialy made up of Gardai, DOJ officials, NPWS etc its easy to claim support. I'd be interested to hear the shooting associations version of events at this meeting. I have a terrible vision of them emerging from the meeting waving the piece of paper with the new licensing procedures on it and declaring 'peace in our time';)

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

We'll have to wait for the transcripts to be sure, but I'd feel comfortable hazarding a guess that they were referring to one of Des Crofton's pieces on pistol ownership.

/mutters about how the ISD should have been shut down years ago before this happened.

i read that piece in the digest written by crofton against practical pistol , and couldn't believe it when i did , surely the old saying of "if you've nothing good to say , say nothing" should have crossed his mind , its bad enough the attempts so far in removing pistol ownership without it being assisted by our own "representatives"
the minister in using anecdotal evidence should be ashamed of himself , and the whole thing stinks of whitewash !

Half-cocked

rowa wrote: »

the minister in using anecdotal evidence should be ashamed of himself , and the whole thing stinks of whitewash !

A Minister using anecdotal evidence to justify a course of action??? OMG, next thing you'll be accusing our political class of all sorts of underhand and unethical behaviour:eek:

It is you who should be ashamed of yourself, trying to sully the reputation of such an honourable and upstanding profession. How dare you! You're obviously unfit to hold a licensed firearm;)