Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Rovi

Thanks for that BOB, just reading it now.

The 'Firearms' bit starts at page 19, everyone.

Sparks

Okay, so it allows the Minister to prohibit certain types of firearm, it allows for the renewal of certs to be spread out over the year instead of all happening at once, it allows for people other than the Gardai to handle the licence fees (ie. An Post) once the licence is granted, it says you can't get a pistol licence for anything that's not currently on the restricted list unless you already have the licence for it prior to November last year and if you had the licence after that, it's revoked, it bans "practical or dynamic shooting" which is defined as "simulated combat or combat training", it bars personal importation of firearms (only an RFD can import them now) unless a licence is granted, it brings airsoft back into the authorisation mechanism, and it changes the firearms cert to 3 years and theres more...

G17

Let the posts/counter posts/biting/I told you so/how dare you/well look after your own/that bloke down the pub was right/wrong, begin.


I would NOT like to be a moderator today!

Sparks

...merging threads...

lordarpad

If I am reading point 31, the new section 17 of the firearms act correctly one can't even buy ammo up North any more and bring it home?

Sparks

I'd say so lordar.

Rew

You can apply to keep you pistol if you had it before Nov 19th 2008:

3D.—(1) As and from the date of commence- 50
ment of this section, no application for a firearm
22
certificate in respect of a short firearm shall be
considered by an issuing person other than for—
(a) a device capable of discharging blank
ammunition and to be used as a start-
5 ing gun or blank firing gun;
(b) a short firearm of a type specified at
paragraph 4(2)(e) of the Firearms
(Restricted Firearms and
Ammunition) Order 2008 (S.I. No. 21
10 of 2008) and designed for use as so
specified;
(c) a short firearm for which the applicant
for the firearm certificate held a firearm
certificate on or before 19
15 November 2008.
(2) Any firearm certificate in respect of a short
firearm, other than one to which paragraphs (a) to
(c) of subsection (1) relates, granted between 19
November 2008 and the date of commencement of
20 this section and in force shall stand revoked.
(3) For the purposes of this section, “short firearm”
means a firearm either with a barrel not
longer than 30 centimetres or whose overall length
(excluding the length of any detachable
25 component) does not exceed 60 centimetres.”.

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

I'd say so lordar.

Lads Remember this is a Bill and not legislation.

The canned reloading from the last CJA so even at Act stage it can be sorted!!!

A shame about the decisions made by the licensing authorities since 19th November 2008. So much for the ministers confidence in the Supers, but it will make an interesting challenge in the courts!!!

The conditions for a certificate to be revoked are clearly defined in another section of the act, a super may only do so, so now we have the basic principal of the independence of the superintendents being challenged, the Minister fettering the decisons of the Superintendents...........

Realistically it looks like a mess to me and typical of bad law............

More resaons for trips to the high court than can be counted on your fingers, the FCP must really be pleased to have such profound changes to the Firearms Legislation brought forward with no consultation!

Look at the lateral damage as a result, the constitutional lawyers are going to have a field day................

How will a tourist or target shooter now bring a gun into the country, export it to a dealer in Ireland and re-export it when finished.

Rovi

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Lads Remember this is a Bill and not legislation.

Exactly!

As Sparks said in another thread:

Sparks wrote: »

Also folks, don't forget that once this gets published, that's only the first step in a long line. There's the first stage in the Dail (that's what we're waiting on here), where it's just read out. Then there's the committee stage, then the second stage in the Dail, then it goes to the Seanad where it's read, then goes to the Seanad Committee, then back to the Seanad, then back to the Dail and finally voted on to become law; at any point along the way, it can be massively altered (remember the Criminal Justice Bill 2004? It had more amendments in Committee stage than it had original text, by a factor of two or three!).

There's a long way to go before this becomes 'Law', so let's not panic quite yet.

jwshooter

should not impact a tourist bring a firearm in for sport only a citizen trying to import a firearm for there purposes

G17

From the SI 2008 http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2008/B25960.pdf

You can't get a pistol in Ireland except for:

(e) the following short firearms designed for use in connection with competitions
governed by International Olympic Committee regulations:
(i) air-operated firearms of 4.5 millimetres (.177 inch) calibre,
4 [21]
(ii) firearms using .22 inch rim-fire percussion ammunition.


No more Glocks, H&Ks, 1911s or anything like that LEGALLY in Ireland. Well if that doesn't make Joe Public happy.....

It wasn't me!

G17 wrote: »

No more Glocks, H&Ks, 1911s or anything like that LEGALLY in Ireland. Well if that doesn't make Joe Public happy.....

It won't. There's no widespread public support for the handgun ban, at all, and most I've spoken to have seen it for the smokescreen it is.

This is a very, very poor show. Not remotely amused by this.

packas

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Hot off the press

Practical prohibited!

Power to prohibit firearms of a certain criteria (pistols gone!)

Reloading kicked to touch ( all that good practical work in the 2006 wasted)

Significant restictions on airsoft!!!

Everyone effected and not for the good.

The defininition of practical/dynamic shooting in the bill means any form of activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat or combat training.

IPSC shooting is a sport & is not used to simulate combat shooting. However it origins were martial (as was archery). Combat training/simulation would be IDPA in my view.

It wasn't me!

packas wrote: »

So based on that it's my view that IPSC is not prohibited.

Wouldn't want to take that court case though, would you? Honestly, this is not making for good, light reading.

Rovi

[MOD NOTE]
Can I ask everyone to please not get into pointing at other sports or activities as a justification as to why our sport should or should not be legislated for, or making statements like "If we're going to be restricted/banned/whatever, so should they"?

That sort of thing does no credit to our argument or position, and only alienates potential friends and allies.

rrpc

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Lads Remember this is a Bill and not legislation.

Indeed.

The conditions for a certificate to be revoked are clearly defined in another section of the act, a super may only do so, so now we have the basic principal of the independence of the superintendents being challenged, the Minister fettering the decisons of the Superintendents...........

Remember that the Oireachtas gave those powers to the Supers and what he Oireachtas giveth, the Oireachtas can taketh away.

How will a tourist or target shooter now bring a gun into the country, export it to a dealer in Ireland and re-export it when finished.

That's not considered to be an import because it's not permanent. That whole area is a mess anyway because of the stupid system of having to get an Irish licence and not using the Europass properly.

G17

Rovi wrote: »

[MOD NOTE]
Can I ask everyone to please not get into pointing at other sports or activities as a justification as to why our sport should or should not be legislated for, or making statements like "If we're going to be restricted/banned/whatever, so should they"?

That sort of thing does no credit to our argument or position, and only alienates potential friends and allies.

Judean People's Front, SPLITTERS!!

Breachloader

As and from the date of commence- 50
ment of this section, no application for a firearm
22
certificate in respect of a short firearm shall be
considered by an issuing person other than for—

a short firearm for which the applicant
for the firearm certificate held a firearm
certificate on or before 19
15 November 2008.

The above does noy specify a pistol license, it states that one must have been in possession of a firearm cert. before this date. Which essentialy means anybody at present who has a cert. (shotgun, rifle, air rifle, pistol etc.) is eligable to apply... However NOBODY in the future will be able to apply for one, unless they had cert. before Nov 19. 2008... Thats grandfathering for you is it not?
Am I reading this right?

They may take the applications but will they grant any cert. is the question?

Breachloader..

Grizzly 45

[IPSC shooting is a sport & is not used to simulate combat shooting. However it origins were martial (as was archery).

Better said it is about as revelant to modern day combat training,as marching in formation has to modern police methods in combating crime.

Sparks

Breachloader wrote: »

The above does noy specify a pistol license, it states that one must have been in possession of a firearm cert. before this date.

No, it's talking about certs for "Short Firearms" which basicly means pistols in effect.

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Wouldn't want to take that court case though, would you?

I wouldn't, but I know a few people who would love to get shouty (just because they like to shout) and this bill is just going to give them the time of their lives.
And those who have an actual case to take against this part of the bill will probably find themselves being drowned out by them

Hopefully the FCP (or the NGBs) will make a public statement about all of this soon. If half the shooters don't want this law and the FCP (or more accurately, the NGBs) doesn't support them, we'll be right back to square one (as in, where we were back in 1997) before we know it, with the idiots running the asylum both in the sport and in the legislative side of things

rrpc

Breachloader wrote: »

As and from the date of commencement of this section, no application for a firearm certificate in respect of a short firearm shall be considered by an issuing person other than for—

The above does not specify a pistol license, it states that one must have been in possession of a firearm cert. before this date. Which essentialy means anybody at present who has a cert. (shotgun, rifle, air rifle, pistol etc.) is eligable to apply... However NOBODY in the future will be able to apply for one, unless they had cert. before Nov 19. 2008... Thats grandfathering for you is it not?
Am I reading this right?

No, it's a short firearm which is defined elsewhere as anything with a barrell less than 30cm and overall length less than 60cm.

budda15c

G17 wrote: »

From the SI 2008 http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/esi/2008/B25960.pdf

You can't get a pistol in Ireland except for:

(e) the following short firearms designed for use in connection with competitions
governed by International Olympic Committee regulations:
(i) air-operated firearms of 4.5 millimetres (.177 inch) calibre,
4 [21]
(ii) firearms using .22 inch rim-fire percussion ammunition.


No more Glocks, H&Ks, 1911s or anything like that LEGALLY in Ireland. Well if that doesn't make Joe Public happy.....

Sorry, in work and haven't had a chance to read anything in detail, so apologies for diving straight in. Just had a quick scan over the above link. Does this mean that 22 rimfire pistols will not be banned

It wasn't me!

budda15c wrote: »

Sorry, in work and haven't had a chance to read anything in detail, so apologies for diving straight in. Just had a quick scan over the above link. Does this mean that 22 rimfire pistols will not be banned

*designed for use* in Olympic disciplines, which is a pretty narrow selection of .22 pistols in the first place, and the only reason one would have one is to shoot Olympic disciplines.

Sparks

In short, yes, if they're suitable for use in ISSF shooting (which covers a wide range of pistols).

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

*designed for use*

Whoa, what?
*rereads*
Oh for feck's sake...

budda15c

It wasn't me! wrote: »

*designed for use* in Olympic disciplines, which is a pretty narrow selection of .22 pistols in the first place, and the only reason one would have one is to shoot Olympic disciplines.

Cheers. That's more or less what I didn't want to hear:(

It wasn't me!

budda15c wrote: »

Cheers. That's more or less what I didn't want to hear:(

Me either.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Whoa, what?
*rereads*
Oh for feck's sake...

Yep, shafted.

Sparks

Yeah, the more I read this, the more I'm sure that there is not one thing in there that is good for the sports.
For gun dealers, yes, as we now all have to go through them.
For pistol owners, obviously not. For rifle or shotgun owners, nope, because now we're all getting caught on the buying in of ammo from abroad (and prices here are up to four times those outside the state, even across in N.I.). Yes, we do get the 3 year licence, but we already had that. There's no quid pro quo in here at all. No raising of the 1J limit to something more sensible, even though sub-1J stuff is now back under the Act. No one-man-one-licence deal. No eliminating that little loophole of "if I don't talk to you for three months, you're considered refused and notified". And the persona designata status is being encroached upon (though not actually eliminated), so even the Supers don't know where they stand on licencing. FFS. The whole thing is one soggy mess of pottage.