Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not quite...But I wont say more here on this.
The enemy reads here too!:eek:

The problem is G45. the minister can ban on a whim now. We all know his reasons for the pistol ban in the 1st place were shakey, to say the least :eek: So now if there is ever court action taken against him, he can say its within his power, to ban anthing he feels might be dangerous.

He probably even has some anti terror laws, that allow him not to give a reason in public. Seems to be all the rage in the UK at the min.

bunny shooter

chem wrote: »

Bunny, I wasnt a member of the PP organisation.

My apologies confused you with someone else here

chem wrote: »

I was in the middle of getting a licence for a 9mm browning. Had my alarm up grade and alot of money spent on other security around the house. The the minister made his statment. So now i have to move my pistol to a club in the north to shoot it.

I am genuinely sorry to hear that. I know the expense involved. My security alone has cost me €1800+

chem wrote: »

credit to the lads in PP. But the minister might still have a sting in his tail. He can ban anything he likes for any reason givin. Id not hold out much hope for any pistols here in the future.

I agree about the lads from PP. I agree about the ****e that will probably come in the future too

chem wrote: »

If he can invent the laws before they are written eg: de facto ban on pistols after his statment. What will he do when he has the law behind him .

I couldn't agree more

chem wrote: »

How that de facto ban was not challanged is beyond me

Hard to challenge a policy? Takes time to get a case to court and money

bunny shooter

meathshooter wrote: »

for a start they wont be spending money on high court cases have direct contact with doj and gardai at highest levels afterall the main intrests are not pistols cause there clearly not now protecting there members now who have pistols

TBH of the 28,000 odd members of the NARGC a very small percentage are pistol owners. Most are game and vermin shooters

rowa

everyone i know in practical pistol is a very responsible shooter and remarkably skilled,several of them i know also spent large sums of money travelling abroad to advance themselves in the sport and represent there country , if there was a minority acting the idiot in practical why weren't there pistols removed and they charged with a criminal offence ?

i see reports of practical pistols shoots and people from the former communist countries shooting in them , who would have thought it , us with gun laws more draconian than them ?

its all heresay and to ban pistols on the back of it grossly unfair ,
i would say its a case of divide and conquer , whats next i wonder ?

chem

everyone i know in practical pistol is a very responsible shooter and remarkably skilled,several of them i know also spent large sums of money travelling abroad to advance themselves in the sport and represent there country , if there was a minority acting the idiot in practical why weren't there pistols removed and they charged with a criminal offence ?

because that would need real police work :rolleyes:

i see reports of practical pistols shoots and people from the former communist countries shooting in them , who would have thought it , us with gun laws more draconian than them ?

Its strange that alright. As the former communist countries come out of draconian ways of thinking. We seem to be moving more into police states here in the west.

its all heresay and to ban pistols on the back of it grossly unfair ,
i would say its a case of divide and conquer , whats next i wonder?

Id guess fullbore rifles:mad:

bunny shooter

rowa wrote: »

......its all heresay...........

Unfortunately it isn't

Grizzly 45

Well then isnt it about time now the Minister and other intrested parties in seeing practical pistol sunk stands up and provides
Irrefutable proof that will stand in a court of law!:mad:
This BullSHT has gone on long enough now!Even the Minister admitted in the comittee that he has "anecdotal" evidence of this going on! WTF!The man was a solicitor........ once.Even he must know that anecdotal evidence,and heresay is the worst possible evidence to build a case on in law.If he doesnt know this,surely to God he has enough,muppets,courtesans ,and whatnot to inform him of this tiny legal matter?

It is time now for the minister,and all the anti PP people to now either PUT UP OR SHUT UP!! Show us the proof of all this henious combat training that was supposedly going on.
The only person anyone will find of which there is concrete factual evidence that was involved in combat training in Ireland is James Shortt aka Baron Castleshortt,<MOD SNIP>.Last know address Castle Bellingham or Castle Cosey,Co Louth!Minister Dermot Ahernes home county! FACT!

Evidence thereof;a DVD and youtube footage of this combat training taking place in Ireland,freely purchaseable or watchable .FACT!
Course was attended by Irish members of IBA.FACT!

Has it gone now so bad in this country that we are trying a group of people on almost Mc Carthyist evidence and methodology???
Ignore the facts,and go on facts,however dubious and shakey that suit a certain political agenda??

I'd almost expect Minister Aherne to annouce that he has a "list of names in his pocket" of blasphemers and practical pistol shooters who are intending to subvert the State! If this is the case,be worried...very worried about the democratic and judical process in this country..
We wont be too far from show trials then.:(

As for us gun owners we are not hanging together,but we are certainly hanging seperatly.Dont be surprised and be crying here in a few years or months time if suddenly your target rifles are next on the list!!

rowa

bunny shooter wrote: »

Unfortunately it isn't

ok maybe so , but if its not heresay arrest and if need be charge them with something that'll stand up in court .why did the practical pistol association not stamp this out too ?

i guessed myself that the centrefire rifles are next , i know anything of a "bullpup" configuration is a no-no and a fellow club member who had a sommer and okenfuss rifle was always getting flak from the guards over having it , and that documentary on rte made it clear that someone didn't like the idea of rifles like the .308 being in the hands of the public ," this round can kill elk at 4 miles" and other hilarious statements by "experts"

Lemon3

Not sure if this was mentioned but the transcript from Thursday is up now http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=JUS20090618.XML&Ex=All&Page=1

rowa

i've just finished reading the firearms parts of the proposed bill , fair play to pat rabbite for the stance he took against the minister , ahern certainly has it in for practical pistol and much of his evidence seemed to revolve around the "dark side" of pistol shooting which naturally he couldn't discuss in public because of security , in other words be has evidence but isn't going to tell anyone what that evidence is , how convienient .

des crofton really has done us an ill service , with the minister referring to him several times and that article he had published in the shooters digest slating both practical and centrefire pistol ownership, he was quick enough to associate himself with the brophy win but now that things have gone sour he is the first to distance himself and his organisation from us , sad .

Clash

rowa wrote: »

i've just finished reading the firearms parts of the proposed bill , fair play to pat rabbite for the stance he took against the minister , ahern certainly has it in for practical pistol and much of his evidence seemed to revolve around the "dark side" of pistol shooting which naturally he couldn't discuss in public because of security , in other words be has evidence but isn't going to tell anyone what that evidence is , how convienient .

Not going to tell anyone in public, there's a difference.

chem

Deputy Dermot Ahern: The consultative panel consists of a wide range of groups that range from the IFA, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Irish Sports Council, the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland, the Garda Síochána, deer hunting representatives, firearms dealers’ representatives, the National Target Shooting Association of Ireland, the Midlands National Shooting Centre, the National Association of Regional Gaming Councils, the Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association, Countryside Alliance Ireland and the Irish Gun Trade Association. I did not detect any huge difficulties at the meeting. People were very well aware of the Government’s position on all of the issues, especially the issue of handguns. They did not articulate them as strongly as I thought, but I should not speak for them. It was a good exchange and there was no acrimony. There was complete understanding of the position the Government is taking.

So even the minister was surprised at the lack of argument put forward for handguns to be licenced :eek:

It is the Government’s belief that the promotion of undesirable shooting practices over the last number of years, which has created demand for high-powered handguns, assault rifles and other military-type firearms, is not in the public interest and will not continue.

And so we see the end of full bore rifles and semi auto full bore shooting.

bunny shooter

chem wrote: »

..........And so we see the end of full bore rifles and semi auto full bore shooting.

I think the important term in his statement is "military-type firearms" eg AR 15's and some of the other stuff I have seen recently on the range :eek:

Personally I can see no reason why anyone in this country would need or want a fullbore semi-auto rifle.

rowa

bunny shooter wrote: »

I think the important term in his statement is "military-type firearms" eg AR 15's and some of the other stuff I have seen recently on the range :eek:

Personally I can see no reason why anyone in this country would need or want a fullbore semi-auto rifle.

neither can i to be honest bunny shooter but i think they're of limited interest anyway , most people i know are interested in accuracy and that means bolt actions and single shots , i just hope to god that centrefire rifles are left alone though i doubt they will be and i'd say anything resembling a military "black" rifle could be on the restricted list .

chem

bunny shooter wrote: »

I think the important term in his statement is "military-type firearms" eg AR 15's and some of the other stuff I have seen recently on the range :eek:

Personally I can see no reason why anyone in this country would need or want a fullbore semi-auto rifle.

And what is a military-type firearm bunny? Is it semi auto? .308 bolt action sniper rifle? Any military caliber?

As you can see from the ministers speach he has not a clue about firearms. Your very same logic is what has us in the boat now with pistols. Ah sure no need for them yokes, is the majority view. So why have you one?

So you would be happy to give semi auto fullbore up as long as it doesent effect you. But when the government deside to try take your interest in shooting, will you come looking for everyone else to support you?

Myself I collect. And as part of that interest I enjoy shooting semiauto military rifles. So you would tell me I shouldnt have it because you dont share my interest?

Clash

chem wrote: »

And what is a military-type firearm bunny? Is it semi auto? .308 bolt action sniper rifle? Any military caliber?

Pretty much everything was a military calibre at some stage in it's existence, however not every firearm was/is a military firearm.

As you can see from the ministers speach he has not a clue about firearms.

For someone with very little contact with firearms or the shooting sports until relatively recently, he certainly demonstrated a far greater knowledge than I would have expected. Unfortunately for us, he obviously knew more about the legislation and the sports than the people sitting across the table from him and that showed through in their responses to his answers,

Your very same logic is what has us in the boat now with pistols. Ah sure no need for them yokes, is the majority view. So why have you one?

Exactly! We are wonderfully adept at shooting ourselves in t he foot

Myself I collect. And as part of that interest I enjoy shooting semiauto military rifles. So you would tell me I shouldnt have it because you dont share my interest?

Absolutely. What sort of a menace to society are you? :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

++++1 on that Chem!:D
This BS of my gun is better than your gun,cos I dont like it or cant see any need for it,would really want to be killed like NOW! .THAT attitude can turn around and REALLY bite you in the ass!:mad:

Just ask the UK Olympic pistol shooting team.THEY are the ones training abroad,after being the ones to sell up everyonne with the evil black guns and practical pistols..
All the bans in the UK were to get rid of these disiplines
Practical rifle,with straight pull bolt actions are still going on,practical pistol albiet with airsoft or long barreled yokes goes on still,and practical shotgun still goes on.
As for why anyone would need one;
1]I am left handed ,it is easier to get a left handed semi AR15 than a left handed bolt action,so if you are denying me that you are discriminating against me straight off.
2] Every other country in the EU,apart from these two rocks in the Atlantic have NO problem whatsoever with their citizens owning them.
They are the hottest selling item of firearms in Germany for five years running.And there they still have stronger laws about owning military firearms than we ever will.
3]Your bolt action a 100 years ago was the assault rifle of the day.
Who or why should any person say..sofar shall you go technology and no further??It would be like saying ok you can only drive VW beetles and nothing else??
4] When they come to ban your target rifle as it has suddenly morphed into a "deadly sniper rifle".Expect no sympathy or help from those you sold down the river.
To paraphrase a famous saying;

First they came for the pistols,but I said nothing because I didnt own a pistol,or didnt like the disiplines.
Then they came for the semi auto rifles,but I said nothing because I didnt own a semi auto rifle,or could see no reason for anyone owning one.
Then they came for the "military style" shotguns,but I said nothing because I could see no reason for owning one.
Finally they came for my civillian target rifles and hunting shotguns,but it was to late as no one could speak up for me or could see a "good reason" for me to own one.:(

Grizzly 45

For someone with very little contact with firearms or the shooting sports until relatively recently, he certainly demonstrated a far greater knowledge than I would have expected. Unfortunately for us, he obviously knew more about the legislation and the sports than the people sitting across the table from him and that showed through in their responses to his answers,

Or,it just shows what sort of spineless,gutless,witless , toadying and backside kissing has been going on behind the scenes as well on that FCP by people who are supposed to repersent us.:mad::mad::mad:.Are they so in awe of this man???Well maybe it IS true then that he got a standing applause:rolleyes::mad:.I think maybe us gunowners and payers into these organisations should look at who or what is repersenting us as well when this is all over.Maybe there people there who are just too comfortable anymore.

bunny shooter

chem wrote: »

And what is a military-type firearm bunny? Is it semi auto? .308 bolt action sniper rifle? Any military caliber?

As far as I'm concerned anything currently used by any countries army. How can any civilian justify requiring something like this irrelevant of calibre, action or calibre. Just for the record .308 Win. and .223 Rem. are not military calibres :rolleyes: 7.62mm and 5.56mm are !

chem wrote: »

As you can see from the ministers speach he has not a clue about firearms. Your very same logic is what has us in the boat now with pistols. Ah sure no need for them yokes, is the majority view. So why have you one?

I had 2 x pistols. Have got rid of them as I don't need the hassle. I am not a sulky child who has had my toys taken from me. I enjoyed my rifle and stotgun shooting before they were allowed and I will still enjoy my rifle and shotgun shooting now I've given up my pistols

chem wrote: »

So you would be happy to give semi auto fullbore up as long as it doesent effect you. But when the government deside to try take your interest in shooting, will you come looking for everyone else to support you?

I don't need or want a s/a fullbore. See previous comment If they decide to take something I have away I will change to something else. I am not going to act like a child who has has their toys taken from them There are lots of disciplines to try and to participate in thankfully. I am also sensible enough to know that as long as the majority don't agree with what I want to do then I will not win against the duly elected government of the State.

chem wrote: »

Myself I collect. And as part of that interest I enjoy shooting semiauto military rifles. So you would tell me I shouldnt have it because you dont share my interest?

Fair enough you like to collect each to their own IMO. I enjoy shooting military weapons too. Luckily I am a serving member of the RDF so I get to fire such weapons there :cool:

When I first started civilian shooting I had a 12g o/u shotgun and then I got a .22 Hornet b/a rifle. I thought I was in heaven. Now people who start shooting want s/a .308's/223's and AK 47 type shotguns :rolleyes:

I met a lad at the range recently and he had a 220 swift. It was his first rifle. He was shooting at 100 yards and not doing well to say the least. He told me he was trading up to a 300 Win Mag. I asked him why and he said "I'm a member here and I wanna shoot foxes therefore I'll get the licence".

This type of lunacy is what is ruining it for the rest of you !!!!!!

bunny shooter

Grizzly and chem I totally agree with you :eek: And I am as upset as ye over this situation

BUT there is no point tilting at windills

lykoris

rowa wrote: »

neither can i to be honest bunny shooter but i think they're of limited interest anyway , most people i know are interested in accuracy and that means bolt actions and single shots

limited interest...because they are 'banned' in ROI.

certain semi-auto's will be more inherently accurate than bolt-action rifles...I've seen a few national match M1As outshoot bolt czs.

I think it best neither you nor bunny shooter ever come to a range in Luxembourg, Belgium or France because 90% of what you will see are 'military' semi-autos....you'll probably never trully recover thinking we are all gun nuts :pac:

There are many competitions for 'military' semi-autos with various classes here.

I also think semi-auto centerfire rifles are excellent hunting rifles...for quick follow-up shots.

Grizzly 45

bunny shooter wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned anything currently used by any countries army. How can any civilian justify requiring something like this irrelevant of calibre, action or calibre. Just for the record .308 Win. and .223 Rem. are not military calibres :rolleyes: 7.62mm and 5.56mm are !

Well why then does any civillian require a rifle capable of accuacy of a 1/2in MOA out at 500 meters???there is no earthly reason for one of those either going by your logic. Or need cammo clothing or a whole lot of things that are mnilitary related too.

I had 2 x pistols. Have got rid of them as I don't need the hassle. I am not a sulky child who has had my toys taken from me. I enjoyed my rifle and stotgun shooting before they were allowed and I will still enjoy my rifle and shotgun shooting now I've given up my pistols

Your choice again,but please let the rest of us try and hold onto our stuff.And I ,and others resent being referred to spoilt children:mad: :mad::mad::mad:
It is a democratic right to own property,and for us to be deprived of them on the most spurious grounds by a quasi tinpot dictator stinks to high heaven.

I don't need or want a s/a fullbore. See previous comment

Your choice,others might like them.Called freedom of choice in a democratic society.

If they decide to take something I have away I will change to something else. I am not going to act like a child who has has their toys taken from them

There are lots of disciplines to try and to participate in thankfully. I am also sensible enough to know that as long as the majority don't agree with what I want to do then I will not win against the duly elected government of the State.

Yeah,but then going and saying ah well some types are really not suitable,because the majority says so,will kill off all the rest of them as well. So really said ,if the majority say long range target shooting is out,you will agree?Where does it end???Going by your statements,if in the end your BA and OU is gone you will have to agree with it..

Fair enough you like to collect each to their own IMO. I enjoy shooting military weapons too. Luckily I am a serving member of the RDF so I get to fire such weapons there :cool:

Thats total hyprocrisy Bunny.!!!!!!You can enjoy this because you are in the RDF and more stuff like Full auto as well.But you would deny your fellow gunowners then the right to own and shoot semis???What makes you now better than the rest of us???
Because you are in the former Free Clothes Association????OH PLEEEAAASSSEE!!!!

AHHH...Is this it???Only Qualified Military personel and police are fit to own and use such things ???Mere civillians are not fit to be let near things like these????

I met a lad at the range recently and he had a 220 swift. It was his first rifle. He was shooting at 100 yards and not doing well to say the least. He told me he was trading up to a 300 Win Mag. I asked him why and he said "I'm a member here and I wanna shoot foxes therefore I'll get the licence".

This type of lunacy is what is ruining it for the rest of you !!!!!!

[/QUOTE]

How has this got to do with owning Semis?????

But doing this attachment to each other is no help either.:(

Clash

:eek: Grizzly

You're a real Mr. Angry tonight, you have the poor oul 'angry' smiley wore out. Your mouse must be in holy terror of you.

Grizzly 45

I havent even started yet!!:D:D

rowa

to be honest i am surprised that ahern didn't try to ban semi auto centrefire rifles first , but i suppose he now has the power to ban anything he or future ministers for justice feel like , he can and probabily will ban them next and do so overnight , i only seen one semi auto centrefire and that was a fn in 7.62 and to be honest i was amazed , it is only used for deer shooting but is an impressive rifle .
i read the report today and another thing springs to mind , ahern states several times about traditional shooting sports that have been carried on in ireland for decades and things like pistol and practical shooting have no tradition in this country , i feel he may want to return to a time when only shotguns and rimfire rifles were commonly licenced and everything else can be removed or made so difficult to licence no one bothers.
i didn't mean to raise hackles when i didn't see the need for semi auto centrefires , i just didn't think there were any being licenced anyway .
finally i think some people were going a bit too far on both sides , one well known target shooter i know wanted flag to take a court case against the gardai/dept of justice so as to allow full auto rifles to be licenced and on the other hand i know a lot of target shooters wanted centrefire pistols other than .32 acps to be taken up and made some very negative comments about anyone who wanted to shoot anything other than paper , eg practical , skittle shoots , silhouettes etc .

chem

bunny shooter wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned anything currently used by any countries army. How can any civilian justify requiring something like this irrelevant of calibre, action or calibre. Just for the record .308 Win. and .223 Rem. are not military calibres :rolleyes: 7.62mm and 5.56mm are !

Some people find this type of shooting fun! And if its not causing a problem, why ban it? Id like to see you explain the differance of the calibers to the minister;) noone could get .223s here because of the troubles.

I had 2 x pistols. Have got rid of them as I don't need the hassle. I am not a sulky child who has had my toys taken from me. I enjoyed my rifle and stotgun shooting before they were allowed and I will still enjoy my rifle and shotgun shooting now I've given up my pistols

Do you mind me asking what hassle you got? and from who? You give up your pistols that you were allowed to have, even after this bill:eek:

I don't need or want a s/a fullbore. See previous comment If they decide to take something I have away I will change to something else. I am not going to act like a child who has has their toys taken from them There are lots of disciplines to try and to participate in thankfully. I am also sensible enough to know that as long as the majority don't agree with what I want to do then I will not win against the duly elected government of the State.

So where will you draw the line bunny? lots of disciplines to try but getting smaller with every bill thats changed or put forward. You are right we are the minority. So every minority must give up its peacefull hobbies because the majority dont/wont understand it? If thats the case ban all modified cars. Most people hate them so to hell with the young people who have a hobby. Better if they were to spend there money on good old fashion drink and smokes. Something the majority can understand.

When I first started civilian shooting I had a 12g o/u shotgun and then I got a .22 Hornet b/a rifle. I thought I was in heaven. Now people who start shooting want s/a .308's/223's and AK 47 type shotguns :rolleyes:

I met a lad at the range recently and he had a 220 swift. It was his first rifle. He was shooting at 100 yards and not doing well to say the least. He told me he was trading up to a 300 Win Mag. I asked him why and he said "I'm a member here and I wanna shoot foxes therefore I'll get the licence".

You enjoied shooting your hornet. Thats great. But what if you had been told it was to powerfull for you to have? Why not a .22lr? Why take the fun and learning away from the guy? Was he doing any harm? Were people running for cover at the range when he showed up? Instead of scoffing at his lack of markmanship, why not lend him a hand and give him some pointers?

bunny shooter

Grizzly I think you should check what the defination of democracy is because your version seems different to mine

bunny shooter

Lads public perception of us is very important

chem

bunny shooter wrote: »

Lads public perception of us is very important

Bunny ask the average guy on the street if pistols or semi autos are legal here. The MAJORITY would say no!! Kina proves a point in its self. There is not an issue with them so they dont come to the public interest;)

finnlite

bunny shooter wrote: »

Lads public perception of us is very important

they will be collecting your firearms in the morning if so