Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

No, I have nothing on the restricted list Had a clear out

Well then I was right and everything you have is on the restricted list.

You're forgetting that there's nothing 'restricted' on the restricted list. It's a negative list

rrpc

Meyer wrote: »

Just been going over this in my mind. If you ignore the bit about the demand for high-powerd handguns, etc, etc. It translates as the banning of "undesirable practices" not being allowed to continue, and not the banning of the firearms themselves...Am I being overly optimistic in reading that into it?

There are a few quotes that might allow some optimism for the future. The first is the annual review that Charlie Flanagan proposed and that the Minister accepted without argument. Another is this brief exchange between the Minister and Charlie Flanagan:

Deputy Charles Flanagan: There was one issue the Minister did not address; namely, the matter of the exempted sporting pursuits that he would consider desirable in view of his earlier comments about Olympic and Olympic-style sports.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: As a result of the meeting I had with the consultative panel last week I undertook to speak to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism about this. I have no problem with legitimate sporting activities, but

---

Deputy Charles Flanagan: Internationally accepted sports.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: We must find out the designation of “internationally recognised”.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: I thought the Minister would have done that already, because he is enshrining it in legislation.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: No. My issue is one of security, not the definition of sporting activities. We are putting this in primary legislation, not secondary legislation - I am not giving myself the power to do this behind closed doors. I am putting it here in lights that we want to ban, in effect, practical shooting. We do not want to ban normal paintball operations.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: And other types of target practice that would be accepted as international competitive sports.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Static target practices.

It's not much, but it obviously means that he's going to bring in the Minister for Sport and give him some role in deciding what are 'internationally recognised' static target sports. Other than practical shooting, there appears to be no other qualification in that statement.

I think we can accept that practical shooting is a dead duck. There was nothing in those exchanges to suggest that the opposition were likely do push the issue at all and the Minister seems very determined to put a stop to it:

I want to send a clear message today to those who think they can continue these activities by changing the name of their organisation. There is no equivocation on this point and there is no room for semantics. When my firearms range inspector commences certifying target shooting ranges, this point will be made abundantly clear.

Don't even go there seems to be the message.

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

And yet there's a thread over three hundred pages long (last time i looked) on politics.ie on just such activities and the people who are involved and some very unsavoury characters. I think we're a bit too innocent here and don't believe the stuff that's going on until it's shoved right into our faces as the Michael Dwyer incident proved.

I hate to say this but politics.ie is inhabited by just as many nutters as indymedia.ieThis Dwyer affair has been hijacked by the Shell to Sea crowd and a others with a political agenda.Only thing we know was Dwyer played airsoft,somwhere...somtime and worked for a security company set up by Ex Irish rangers....Bodygaurd,HE WAS NOT!!! His tradecraft was appaling and glaring amatueritc mistakes were patently obvious all over the reports.He was a Walt that got in way too deep in somthing he had no comprehension of the consequences.

Except that when you're charging €2500 a pop, there's a lot more cachet to things going bang as opposed to click

In Ireland???you wish!!:D And that my friend is what discens the pros from the fleecers!Anyone charging 2,5k of your money to let you blaze away at targets is a rippoff BG school.


I

think you'd need to be careful about saying things about another sport that might bring it into disrepute for no good reason other than you trying to prove a point on an internet forum.

I am not trying to say that at all.I am sure 95% of all airsofters are sound law abiding folk here in Ireland,and I've no axe whatsoever to grind with them either..But there has been cases of this happening in Europe with Neo nazis,criminals and Leftist groups.So it is not somthing to be dismissed out of hand that it couldnt happen here.Dwyer being a case in point.

Or paintball for that matter. In fact the legislative provision to ban PP specifically allows it to be carried out with paintball markers or airsoft.

Well then isnt a juxtaposition in terms?? If you can then shoot PPwith airsoft,you are training for a sport with a replica of the real firearm,that is banned by the law.Or you can train for combat manouvers legally using airsoft??Err,if I was a military contractor lets be VERY specific here.
I think I would rather train up in combat tactics rather than a sport.

More than anything else, this really indicates that it's possibly not PP as such that the Minister has a problem with but the possibility of it being used as a camouflage for other activities

But then he is leaving himself totally open for it to be abused this training by other means?I couldnt think of a better way of training up people than by airsoft weaponary and tactics?.
Look if somone was training up contractors,as that person we were on about here a few posts back.[Ever after I'll refer to as "himself":)] is/was offering here is more suited to counter terroist or Mil contractor work rathewr than BG work.[I've yet had a need to know how to abseil down a building in full ninja kit with a MP5 in a day to day BG situation:eek:].
A fire selector is the same on an airsoft AK,as it is on the real thing.
Nor are they going to advertise the fact that they are up to somthing.
They are not going to do the mission trainiong in the open but in a "practise session somwhere out of sight and mind.Even with the proposed legislation of being only able to shoot on approved ranges.How will that work to make sure this contractor team doesant meet up somwhere else?

At the end of this all.The Minister is focusing on a sport with real guns that he belives can be misused for combat training.While allowing another sport that is tailor made for the conditions he is trying to ban,with less hassle,no backround checks etc on the participants.Because it uses "Toys "basically. How Irish can you get????:eek:


Sika,
Havent forgotten you.PM sent

milkerman

This thread has covered a hell of a lot of stuff that may or may not have influenced Ahern to introduce this legislation. It seems clear to me though that the advice of the Garda Commissioner would be pivotal in making the decision. I know quite a few Gardai and bye & large they were not comfortable with private ownership of handguns for various reasons - some reasonable and others crazy.
Dermo is pushing his Act through and the bitch is not for turning. So what next? What really scares me is the interpretation the GARDAI put on this Act. Lets face it, there is plenty of evidence to support the assertion that the Gardai have a tendancy to impliment the law in the way that suits them best (the poll at the top of this page being typical).
After the handgun has been dealt with some Supers will start raising issues about some new bogeyman 'Sniper rifles'? .223's? .308's? 'Black Guns'? your guess is as good as mine.

daveob007

milkerman wrote: »

This thread has covered a hell of a lot of stuff that may or may not have influenced Ahern to introduce this legislation. It seems clear to me though that the advice of the Garda Commissioner would be pivotal in making the decision. I know quite a few Gardai and bye & large they were not comfortable with private ownership of handguns for various reasons - some reasonable and others crazy.
Dermo is pushing his Act through and the bitch is not for turning. So what next? What really scares me is the interpretation the GARDAI put on this Act. Lets face it, there is plenty of evidence to support the assertion that the Gardai have a tendancy to impliment the law in the way that suits them best (the poll at the top of this page being typical).
After the handgun has been dealt with some Supers will start raising issues about some new bogeyman 'Sniper rifles'? .223's? .308's? 'Black Guns'? your guess is as good as mine.

i think you are right,this is just the start.
many gardai have worked through the last 30 or so years of conflict in the north and have a deep suspision of firearms and their owners.
the commish fachtna murphy has stated before that he is against civillians owning any type of guns,he is pushing aherns buttons also.
its mostly the older members of the gardai who have issues with guns but not entirely.
its up to us to prove ourselves safe and confident in firearms use..

Grizzly 45

the commish fachtna murphy has stated before that he is against civillians owning any type of guns,he is pushing aherns buttons also

.

Thats intresting...Somone I know very well and is a shooter for a long time here.Knows the Comm pretty well and said he had no problem with gunownership and grew up with them in Kerry. So are we getting as usual some smoke and mirrors here in Ireland..??Or is it just the usual no problem with guns that do not fall outside the remit of DBBL shotguns and .22 bolt actions??

daveob007

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.

Thats intresting...Somone I know very well and is a shooter for a long time here.Knows the Comm pretty well and said he had no problem with gunownership and grew up with them in Kerry. So are we getting as usual some smoke and mirrors here in Ireland..??Or is it just the usual no problem with guns that do not fall outside the remit of DBBL shotguns and .22 bolt actions??

thats only what i heard but that might be a personal thing also dont know really.
smoke and mirrors seem to be a part of irish life.
we should know more pretty soon as the dail rises for summer in about 10 days or so.

milkerman

Growing up with guns means very little in this scenario. Fact is this, each member of the Cabinet is surrounded by senior civil servants and some private advisors. The Minister is supposed to make his decisions on the basis of the best available advice taken from his staff & advisors. In this circumstance the Garda Commissioner MUST HAVE ADVISED THE MINISTER. THIS IS ONE OF HIS MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTIONS.
The Gardai are not our enemy here though. IGNORANCE, SUSPICION & NO ACCOUNTABILITY within the Gardai is our enemy.
IGNORANCE - I got a .17HMR recently. My FO said to me ' Why are you changing to a less powerful calibre when everyone else is buying bigger stronger guns?' - I was changing from a .22 airgun.
SUSPICION - The view that a handful of PP shooters are engaged in combat training for some illegal activity? BASED ON WHAT EVIDENCE? Dont waste your breath on Lord whateverhisnameis - every society has its eccentrics. Unfounded suspicions are not a sound basis for governance.
NO ACCOUNTABILITY - How many shooters have applied for a licence and six months later not received the courtesy of a phonecall? How many never got the courtesy of written refusal? How many applications were simply lost? How many times in the recent past have shooters had to fight their cases in the Courts just to get a Super to act by the rules? This would not be acceptable in any other branch of the public service. There is far more work involved checking a planning application but the local council must give a response within 8 weeks of the date of application (or the planning permission is granted by default).
Enough ranting. If anyone has any ideas how to remedy this situation please tell me... and I dont see the FCP being part of the plan.

daveob007

We have loads of different groups representing various shooting interests and all with different opinions.
What we really need is one body that represents all aspects of shooting and should be made up of people from all shooting diciplines.
Something like the N.R.A. in th US might do the trick.
OK some people have issues with the NRA i'm only using them as an example. if we had that then every shooter in the country whether he/she is a pistol target shooter/clay buster/farmer/gamekeeper/deer stalker/tincan plinker etc should join.
Then no group would be trying to backstab another group.
NOT SUGGESTING FOR ONE MINUTE THAT THIS SORT OF THING GOES ON
HERE just making a point.

chem

We could do with taking a leaf out of the airsoft lads book.

http://irishairsoft.ie/?page_id=414

IRLConor

daveob007 wrote: »

We have loads of different groups representing various shooting interests and all with different opinions.
What we really need is one body that represents all aspects of shooting and should be made up of people from all shooting diciplines.
Something like the N.R.A. in th US might do the trick.
OK some people have issues with the NRA i'm only using them as an example. if we had that then every shooter in the country whether he/she is a pistol target shooter/clay buster/farmer/gamekeeper/deer stalker/tincan plinker etc should join.
Then no group would be trying to backstab another group.
NOT SUGGESTING FOR ONE MINUTE THAT THIS SORT OF THING GOES ON
HERE just making a point.

This idea comes up time and time again so I'll summarise the points that are usually made about it:

• Who would we trust to run it?
• How would the people running it be expected to know enough about all the shooting sports to do a proper job?
• What happens when there's a conflict of interest?
• The NRA is not the only shooting body in the USA.
• No single body can be recognised by both the ISSF and the IPSC. Do we trade the chance to send shooters to the Olympics to not disenfranchise the practical shooters or vice-versa? (Neither is acceptable IMO)

Great idea in theory but it falls down pretty quickly once you examine it.

daveob007

IRLConor wrote: »

This idea comes up time and time again so I'll summarise the points that are usually made about it:

• Who would we trust to run it?
• How would the people running it be expected to know enough about all the shooting sports to do a proper job?
• What happens when there's a conflict of interest?
• The NRA is not the only shooting body in the USA.
• No single body can be recognised by both the ISSF and the IPSC. Do we trade the chance to send shooters to the Olympics to not disenfranchise the practical shooters or vice-versa? (Neither is acceptable IMO)

Great idea in theory but it falls down pretty quickly once you examine it.

i see your point alright.
too many different diciplines involved and also the nra prides itself on the 2nd ammendment of the us consitution the right to bear arms,
something we don't have or want.

Grizzly 45

SUSPICION - The view that a handful of PP shooters are engaged in combat training for some illegal activity? BASED ON WHAT EVIDENCE?

Exactly!Please provide the proof in an open forum Minister.

Dont waste your breath on Lord whateverhisnameis - every society has its eccentrics. Unfounded suspicions are not a sound basis for governance.

Eccentricity is NO excuse for breaking the firearms laws either! Even if he was.
For the last time. CAN PEOPLE GET THIS INTO THEIR HEADS!!!!
THERE IS EVIDENCE there with this point in question..IT is the DUTY of this GOVT and POLICE FORCE to investigate these allegations and suspicions and to find out wether it is founded or unfounded.What FFS are peoples major malfunction with understanding this?????

packas

daveob007 wrote: »

i see your point alright.
too many different diciplines involved and also the nra prides itself on the 2nd ammendment of the us consitution the right to bear arms,
something we don't have or want.

+1 to that. Having legally held firearms for self defence (as is the case in USA) leads to a gun culture that we don't need or want

PJ Hunter

daveob007 wrote: »

i see your point alright.
too many different diciplines involved and also the nra prides itself on the 2nd ammendment of the us consitution the right to bear arms,
something we don't have or want.

what nra do you mean. easy mistake to make. http://www.nra.org.uk/

hk

Dear xxxxxx,
Thank you for getting in touch in relation to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009
I just wanted to let you know that the Bill is in the Seanad next Friday 3rd July.
[MOD SNIP]
Reference to named individuals deleted pending some investigation
[MOD SNIP]
As I am sure you know also, Charlie Flanagan, Fine Gael's Dáil Justice Spokesperson, has been working very hard on this issue. I know that Charlie's amendment to the Bill which would ensure that guns used for legitimate sports would be exempt from the provisions laid out in the Bill, is back in for Report Stage of the debate. We are hopeful that the Minister will see fit to accept this Fine Gael amendment and broaden the exemption beyond Olympic Sports.
I will send you a copy of the Seanad debate upon its completion next Friday

Kind regards,
Eugene

____________________________________________
SENATOR EUGENE REGAN
FG Seanad Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Seanad Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Phone: 01 6183279
Fax: 01 618 4576
Email: eugene.regan@oireachtas.ie

G17

packas wrote: »

+1 to that. Having legally held firearms for self defence (as is the case in USA) leads to a gun culture that we don't need or want

If the minister came to a range he would see a culture of safety, friendship, ferocious jeering, instant coffee, raising money for charity, target shooting and most of all craic!

I really really don't know where this gun culture thing came from, I've been at ranges up and down the country and I've never seen ANY gung ho types, they'd be laughed out of a target range!! Hopefully the genuine target shooters will be allowed to continue and to hell with those responsible for dragging decent target shooters' names through the gutter, may your downstairs bits fester and drop off (a measured response I think).

Grizzly 45

packas wrote: »

+1 to that. Having legally held firearms for self defence (as is the case in USA) leads to a gun culture that we don't need or want

As PJ O Rourke said "America was founded by religious nuts with guns.":D

Grizzly 45

G17 wrote: »

If the minister came to a range he would see a culture of safety, friendship, ferocious jeering, instant coffee, raising money for charity, target shooting and most of all craic!

Ahh.But who likes their bias and sterotypes being showed up as being wrong???

I really really don't know where this gun culture thing came from

, Buzz words from the media and ignorance prthaps?:(

Hopefully the genuine target shooters will be allowed to continue and to hell with those responsible for dragging decent target shooters' names through the gutter, may your downstairs bits fester and drop off (a measured response I think).

[/QUOTE]
Indeed,well said and may it apply well to criminals, meddlsome ministers,and bothersome burrocrats.:D

meathshooter

Had to ring DOJ about an import matter any way they gave me number for the new Garda firearms policy unit which I rang found the garda very helpfull(also the DOJ to give them credit) he took my details and query and was back on to me within 10 minutes,I got talking to him about the upcoming ban and what he said to me matter of factly was that all fullbore handguns will have there certs revoked next month

bunny shooter

meathshooter wrote: »

Had to ring DOJ about an import matter any way they gave me number for the new Garda firearms policy unit which I rang found the garda very helpfull(also the DOJ to give them credit) he took my details and query and was back on to me within 10 minutes,I got talking to him about the upcoming ban and what he said to me matter of factly was that all fullbore handguns will have there certs revoked next month

Heard this myself from a few sources but have been putting it down to rumour. Your source would be a bit more than rumour :eek:

All certs have to be re-applied for I wonder if theis is what they are referring to?

chem

bunny shooter wrote: »

Heard this myself from a few sources but have been putting it down to rumour. Your source would be a bit more than rumour :eek:

All certs have to be re-applied for I wonder if theis is what they are referring to?

It wouldnt be like our government, to try anything underhanded. Would it:rolleyes::mad:

bunny shooter

chem wrote: »

It wouldnt be like our government, to try anything underhanded. Would it:rolleyes::mad:

No, sure it's not as if the new legislation would allow them to do it :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Hope Mr Aherne has his cheque book ready then...:mad:

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hope Mr Aherne has his cheque book ready then...:mad:

No doubt they will spin that to make the shooters look the baddies as usual

meathshooter

bunny shooter wrote: »

Heard this myself from a few sources but have been putting it down to rumour. Your source would be a bit more than rumour :eek:

All certs have to be re-applied for I wonder if theis is what they are referring to?

I said to him thats only applies the certs after 18/11/08 he said that everyone
will be revoked only olmypic style pistol .22 will be allowed fianna fail will definetly go down in history for this. its very sad times we live in personally I and my family and as many people I can convince will never vote again for fianna fail for the personal cost and damage they have done to my sport If they allow this to happen

Grizzly 45

Dont belive them ..The Gardai and DOJ are NO FRIENDS of ours either!!
At this stage I wouldnt belive nothing a Garda,DOJ or any offical body on ours or their side says on this anymore...:mad:

chem

Did the UK government, shaft shooters and collectors of brocock airpistols? I might be wrong on this but last I remember hearing, Everyone who handed them in was still waiting on compo :mad:

zulu_dawn

Email reply sent to me 26th June 2009
Do any of you guys know the two names mentioned?

Dear <snip>,
Thank you for getting in touch in relation to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009
I just wanted to let you know that the Bill is in the Seanad next Friday 3rd July.
[MOD SNIP]
Reference to named individuals deleted pending some investigation
[MOD SNIP]
As I am sure you know also, Charlie Flanagan, Fine Gael's Dáil Justice Spokesperson, has been working very hard on this issue. I know that Charlie's amendment to the Bill which would ensure that guns used for legitimate sports would be exempt from the provisions laid out in the Bill, is back in for Report Stage of the debate. We are hopeful that the Minister will see fit to accept this Fine Gael amendment and broaden the exemption beyond Olympic Sports.
I will send you a copy of the Seanad debate upon its completion next Friday
Kind regards,
Eugene
____________________________________________
SENATOR EUGENE REGAN
FG Seanad Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Seanad Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Phone: 01 6183279
Fax: 01 618 4576
Email: eugene.regan@oireachtas.ie

Jonty

zulu_dawn wrote: »

Email reply sent to me 26th June 2009
Do any of you guys know the two names mentioned?

Dear <snip>,
Thank you for getting in touch in relation to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009
I just wanted to let you know that the Bill is in the Seanad next Friday 3rd July.
[MOD SNIP]
Reference to named individuals deleted pending some investigation
[MOD SNIP]
As I am sure you know also, Charlie Flanagan, Fine Gael's Dáil Justice Spokesperson, has been working very hard on this issue. I know that Charlie's amendment to the Bill which would ensure that guns used for legitimate sports would be exempt from the provisions laid out in the Bill, is back in for Report Stage of the debate. We are hopeful that the Minister will see fit to accept this Fine Gael amendment and broaden the exemption beyond Olympic Sports.
I will send you a copy of the Seanad debate upon its completion next Friday
Kind regards,
Eugene
____________________________________________
SENATOR EUGENE REGAN
FG Seanad Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Seanad Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Phone: 01 6183279
Fax: 01 618 4576
Email: eugene.regan@oireachtas.ie

Does this mean there could be a turn around for practical pistol