Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

chem

Jonty wrote: »

Does this mean there could be a turn around for practical pistol

Dont know about practical. (Minister really has it in for practical) But maybe fullbore bullseye pistol shooting?

It would be a meeting half way between both. Maybe waiting on a report back from the minister for sport on this issue.

Rovi

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sikasmicke

meathshooter wrote: »

I said to him thats only applies the certs after 18/11/08 he said that everyone
will be revoked only olmypic style pistol .22 will be allowed fianna fail will definetly go down in history for this. its very sad times we live in personally I and my family and as many people I can convince will never vote again for fianna fail for the personal cost and damage they have done to my sport If they allow this to happen

Simple response so, 1,800 district court appeals, as allowed for under the current legislation, leave to appeal to the High Court under Section 42 of the constitution with respect to property rights being infringed.

What a mess and so unnecessary, common sense is all that is required, having made a mess of the economy it is easy to see how FF can't deal reasonably with a few pistol shooters.

rowa

sikasmicke wrote: »

Simple response so, 1,800 district court appeals, as allowed for under the current legislation, leave to appeal to the High Court under Section 42 of the constitution with respect to property rights being infringed.

What a mess and so unnecessary, common sense is all that is required, having made a mess of the economy it is easy to see how FF can't deal reasonably with a few pistol shooters.

this goverment know they've sunk the country , we are the european version of zimbabwe now and the celtic tiger was an illusion built on credit , they also know they haven't a snowballs chance in hell of being re-elected and are doing what ever the hell they like now , if some shooting atrocity were to happen in the future in this country (heaven forbid) we are going to get ahern on the media telling everyone how he single handedly tried to avert it and was thwarted by shooting groups .
hearing some of the horror stories about the economy i think a lot of people have more pressing worries and are simply not concerned about this issue .

daveob007

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hope Mr Aherne has his cheque book ready then...:mad:

oh yes its not just the guns we want compensation for but all the other stuff also.
if we have to reapply and are refused then we have to be compensated for all our accessories,monitored alarms,ammunition,safes etc.
this will run into many thousands of euros for some.
this point should be made clear to al ff members.

daveob007

FRI 3RD OF JULY IS WHEN THE BILL COMES BEFORE THE SEANAD.
is there anything else between then and now??

how likely is it that the thing gets passed unopposed

daveob007

There was an interview last week fri or sat on limericks live 95 fm with dave o dea des crofton and a third guy whos name i can;t remember but his 2nd name is cahill.
does anyone have a link or podcast to this as i only got some of it??

Grizzly 45

Plus 1 on that Dave...
It is about time us Irish gunowners start getting as MAD AS HELL!!! with this Govt!!
We have done nothing wrong,[apart from being gunowners:rolleyes:]demanded nothing of them,apart from rational thinking and modification of archaic laws and procedures.Compromised on every issue,obeyed their directives and laws to the letter,at alot of our personal and financial costs,folded voluntarily a ligitmate section of a shooting sport recognised and allowed to continue FFS in a dictatorship like ZIMBABWAE!!,and former ones like Serbia or South Africa,where there is more chance of combat training being more useful than Ireland!!,and generally just want to be LET THE HELL ALONE to just go shooting in our various disiplines.

We even have not had once ONE public demonstration about our plight!
Every other group[and smaller ones than us] from pensioners to the Gardai themselves have been on the streets protesting and giving out about their lot.But we have not,wether this is because of our personal disipline or not being able to organise a bunfight in a bakery is debatable.:pac:
And all we have been handed back from them is a ginormus SHTE SANDWICH:mad:.

Try live95FM.com.They might have it on the website.

The Seanad,righhhtt!!! The expensive other talking shop,full of ivory tower dwellers,academics,has beens and also rans, and other not of this world individuals.Reckon two chances there:(:(

As a line in the old 10cc song "rubber bullets" is
"what'cha goin to do about it?":rolleyes:

meathshooter

daveob007 wrote: »

oh yes its not just the guns we want compensation for but all the other stuff also.
if we have to reapply and are refused then we have to be compensated for all our accessories,monitored alarms,ammunition,safes etc.
this will run into many thousands of euros for some.
this point should be made clear to al ff members.

Im told this is how they will get out of not giving us a single cent,my pistols stand me €4000 in total but if the ban comes in they will be worth noting
northern dealers don't want them,also my equipment ,extra security I had to fork out for to make the cpo sign off for the cert plus the time and effort put in and the worst of all the loss of enjoyment I get from my chosen sport.Does anybody know a good solicitor ?

bunny shooter

"...........We must secure what we have. To this end we must be sure that the new guidelines mentioned do not make it impossible for a practicing sports shooter to relicense his or her equipment........."

NASRPC statement following FCP meeting on 9/6/09

Have these guidelines been published? These will be the biggest indicator of what the immediate future holds for pistols? All current firearms licences expire at the end of the month. These guidelines must be sorted now?

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

...............
It is about time us Irish gunowners start getting as MAD AS HELL!!!.........

Ya this would be a great idea start ranting and raving and see how long you'll have any firearms licences, remember you cannot appear to be a danger to either yourself or others and a bad temper/attitude could be used as a reason to revoke a firearms licence

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

However, nobody here is entitled to tell me my opinons are wrong

Actually, everyone here is entitled to do that. It's only actions that are regulated in this country

sikasmicke wrote: »

Simple response so, 1,800 district court appeals, as allowed for under the current legislation, leave to appeal to the High Court under Section 42 of the constitution with respect to property rights being infringed.

1. There aren't 1800 firearms licences for fullbore pistols in the state; I'd hazard a guess at between half and one-third of that, the remainder being smallbore, air and "non-pistol" pistols (starter guns, blank firing replicas, etc, etc, etc).
2. If you take those 900 cases to the DC, the judges involved will (assuming they are aware or are made aware of the changes to the law introduced by the Act that bans the handguns in the first place) throw the cases out of court on the grounds that the Minister has the legal authority to ban the firearms in question. (If the Act hasn't passed yet, then the ban can't be issued, and then you'd have 900 cases you could take to the DC, but you'd be better off taking the soundest case there as a test case and advancing to the HC and subsequently the SC; total cost will be somewhere in the six figure range).

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, everyone here is entitled to do that. It's only actions that are regulated in this country ...............

No they aren't :P (****thinking to myself .............I'll have the last word :pac:****)

Sparks, was wondering where you were hiding

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

No they aren't :P (****thinking to myself .............I'll have the last word :pac:****)

And how do you regulate an opinion when it's only in someone's mind?

Sparks, was wondering where you were hiding

Was on my first holiday in nearly two years. A week in Feruteventura, without radio, TV, phone, internet or newspapers.
I tell you, it was hard to log back in here after that

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

.................I tell you, it was hard to log back in here after that

Not hard enough obviously :P

Won't say you were missed

Grizzly 45

bunny shooter wrote: »

Ya this would be a great idea start ranting and raving and see how long you'll have any firearms licences, remember you cannot appear to be a danger to either yourself or others and a bad temper/attitude could be used as a reason to revoke a firearms licence

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Righhhttttt Bunny...OK,whatever.
Expressing displeasure with ones current "govt" is now sedition is it????GTFOH!!

Sparks

BS's point wasn't about the content of what you're saying Grizzly, just the manner of expressing it (which in your case does occasionally tend to obscure, rather than illustrate your point...).

Grizzly 45

Ok,point taken on the obscurity point Sparks[BTW welcome back ].
Either I'm too obscure or too literal,everyone says that about me:)

But being "mad as Hell" doesnt mean we take to the streets with our guns,pikes and pitchforks.Everyone can make up their own mind how they can tell this Govt to go and sod off.

Just my 2 cents
I would prefer we were and got abit more vocal.
Not that it will happen we are all too scared to do or say Boo to a mouse,cos we might be considerd, according to Bunny as some kind of danger to the State:rolleyes:

If the State thinks THAT poorly of citizens it has vetted itself to its satisfaction to own firearms.Including members of it's own defence,judicary and police forces active& retired .Yet still considers them some sort of threat..Do we really want to keep living in that kind of a state???Or what kind of a paranoid state of mind is there that is governing us?

After all we have played by the rules all along and have got one step forward and then three back,and BS suggestion that were we to be more vocal and then we would lose our liscenses just suggests intimadation by the State of a section of it's pouplation.VERY SINISTER in a democratic society...
So long as no one is preaching overthrowing the state by force of arms.

[.Oh sorry forgot Shin Fein/IRA was doing that awhile and look they are now in the Dail and Stormount. Lecturing in the Dail about Gun control :eek:]

As it stands,open protest seems to be the only one untried option left to Irish gunowners anymore.:(

sikasmicke

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, everyone here is entitled to do that. It's only actions that are regulated in this country

1. There aren't 1800 firearms licences for fullbore pistols in the state; I'd hazard a guess at between half and one-third of that, the remainder being smallbore, air and "non-pistol" pistols (starter guns, blank firing replicas, etc, etc, etc).
2. If you take those 900 cases to the DC, the judges involved will (assuming they are aware or are made aware of the changes to the law introduced by the Act that bans the handguns in the first place) throw the cases out of court on the grounds that the Minister has the legal authority to ban the firearms in question. (If the Act hasn't passed yet, then the ban can't be issued, and then you'd have 900 cases you could take to the DC, but you'd be better off taking the soundest case there as a test case and advancing to the HC and subsequently the SC; total cost will be somewhere in the six figure range).

Point being made missed: Every firearms certificate for a pistol and all other firearm will need to be applied for come the end of the current certificate, extended as it may be; correct

Is has been on the wires for some time that the Gardai will apparenly refuse applications for full bores, I think that there are more than 1,200 such firearms licensed, if one is refused a lisence they appeal it to the district court, each lisence that is in the region of 1,200.

In addition it is further said that only olympic pistols will be allowed, I have only seen one of these in use since 2004 in Ireland.

Not only will every application that has been refused appealed to the district court but it will have the effect of puting in the public domaine the name and address of every single person who appeals the decision, I would say there is a certian endangerment there that is totally unnecessary.

Any application refused is entitled to appeal to the district court, so if one has three pistols that is not one appeal but three. Get it now?

rowa

i have three pistols , 2 rimfire and a centrefire that i paid 3,000 euro for , i really can't afford to right off this amount of money as a loss if the guards refuse to issue the licences and so i would be forced to take it to the district court , but am i going to have to stand up in the court in front of every scumbag in the area up on charges that day and talk openly about this ?
that is a major security risk for me , i might as well put a sign in the window advertising the fact there is guns inside the house .

are people with new licences issued after november going to be compensated for the loss of there pistols which are now worthless ?

Sparks

sikasmicke wrote: »

Get it now?

Yes - you're not talking about the handgun ban at all, but all 180-odd superintendents (or whatever the subset size is that are responsible for the fullbore pistol licences) simultaenously refusing to renew licences under the current laws (as opposed to the law after the Misc Bill is passed).

1. That assumes that the Act isn't passed by July 31 and we run under the old rules this year (which isn't an utterly bad assumption).
2. It also assumes that the Supers will all either independently originate the idea of banning fullbore pistols in their district or that they will be asked to do so from above and will acquiese in contravention of existing case law.

However, if this is the case, and you go to court, and you win; it won't affect the Minister's proposed handgun ban in the slightest. Unless, of course, that in the interim the Minister is replaced and his successor doesn't want to bring in an act that gives him more powers...

rowa

i don't think ahern is going to be replaced and i can see this hobby horse bill of his being passed , i wish fianna fail would do the decent thing and call an election and promptly disappear , they are no longer wanted by anyone .

Grizzly 45

if the guards refuse to issue the licences and so i would be forced to take it to the district court , but am i going to have to stand up in the court in front of every scumbag in the area up on charges that day and talk openly about this ?
that is a major security risk for me , i might as well put a sign in the window advertising the fact there is guns inside the house .

I'm sure your Solr should push and there really should be no objection from the DJ, or the State that these types of cases are held in camera.
[IOW only people directly involved with the cases are allowed in the court room.You & your council,and the State council.]
How this will work in our overworked DC will be intresting.However if the DC insists on an open sesion,you can really not be blamed if your stuff is lifted.After all all this info is going to be chucked around in an Post if the liscensing system goes ahead. So WTF is the thinking about the security???
WE need gunsafes,alarms,etc etc.And the other side goes and lets the info be freely available to all and sundry in the postal system or your name and details be discussed in an open court,full of the people they want to prevent nicking or aquiring firearms????:rolleyes:

sikasmicke

Sparks wrote: »

Yes - you're not talking about the handgun ban at all, but all 180-odd superintendents (or whatever the subset size is that are responsible for the fullbore pistol licences) simultaenously refusing to renew licences under the current laws (as opposed to the law after the Misc Bill is passed).

1. That assumes that the Act isn't passed by July 31 and we run under the old rules this year (which isn't an utterly bad assumption).
2. It also assumes that the Supers will all either independently originate the idea of banning fullbore pistols in their district or that they will be asked to do so from above and will acquiese in contravention of existing case law.

However, if this is the case, and you go to court, and you win; it won't affect the Minister's proposed handgun ban in the slightest. Unless, of course, that in the interim the Minister is replaced and his successor doesn't want to bring in an act that gives him more powers...

Chief Supers will be making decisions on restricted firearms.

And honestly when last have the Gardai acted within the law when it comes to firearms legislation, all the high court cases would not have been necessary if they did.

Don't think that there are not meetings, briefings and instructions been issued to Garda Supers contrary to the current firearms legislation, why has there been no pistol licenses issued in any district recently, do you think that Garda Supers are like a flock of starlings and all turn together, no they have received instructions and we all know that presently that is not allowed, god help us when they have the power under the new act to issue guidelines, man if they are getting away with blue murder without any legislation behind them imagine the situation when they do get the legislation behind them.

The way things are shaping up the minister is giving the Gardai the power to do what every they like and what do they call it when the police have more power than the Government! A police state, tell me it is not.

Getting back to my original point, when licenses are refused and refused they will be, you will have individual firearms holders standing up in the district court, beside scumbags and criminals who will be only too happy to hear that Joe Soap has been refused a lisence for a Glock 9mm and as a decent citizern he has already been granted lisences for 2 x shotguns, a high power rifle and perhaps a .22, this all inthe district where they live, if there was not a need for a monitored alarm before there will be after.

So yes Rowa you and many others will be put in harms way by the Gardai who should be preventing this type of information getting into the public domane. I like anyone else have no wish to defend my firearms certificates in the district court and put myself and my family in danger, do you think that the super will give a toss though!

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

......Expressing displeasure with ones current "govt" is now sedition is it????GTFOH!!

Depends if you do it in a reasonable, calm manner or as you seem to act here :rolleyes: Like something demented But you would never act like that in reality I suppose

rowa

the whole thing is madness , and i think a blatent case of intimidation .

yes we the gardai have refused your licence but if you go to court to challenge it the criminal world will know what firearms you possess and if some vermin comes around and puts a knife to your throat and threatens you and your family for them, well thats your doing .

i was sort of told this by the cpo who inspected my security , i asked what else i could do to make things more secure and he said nothing really "but if you want these things (pistols) in your house thats the risk you take "

p.s bunny shooter , i think ranting and raving is the common lot at the moment , it'd be strange if we weren't doing so .

Sparks

sikasmicke wrote: »

And honestly when last have the Gardai acted within the law when it comes to firearms legislation, all the high court cases would not have been necessary if they did.

Honestly, as we've said here again and again, a decent estimate is that over 99% of the time, there aren't any problems with licencing. Yes, there have been court cases, yes there have been problems. 75-odd cases, when you've 230,000-odd applications a year, doesn't make for a large percentage. Even if you say that every case is the tip of an iceberg, the numbers of problem cases still don't come out very high as a percentage.

Don't think that there are not meetings, briefings and instructions been issued to Garda Supers contrary to the current firearms legislation

Can we see some proof of that, please...

why has there been no pistol licenses issued in any district recently

There have been licences issued, they've been reported here.

do you think that Garda Supers are like a flock of starlings and all turn together, no they have received instructions

We've specifically asked and been told specifically what those instructions are (to remind all applicants of what the Minister said in November).
We have been specifically told no instructions were issued by the Minister to the Superintendents to refuse licences, or on how to make decisions regarding licencing.
Now, if you have proof that the Minister was lying - and acting illegally by the way - let us know, would you?

Getting back to my original point, when licenses are refused and refused they will be

Again, you're not talking about the handgun ban there - you're assuming the Act will fail to pass as written and the Gardai will take it upon themselves to impose a blanket ban in defiance of Dunne v Donohue (and thus the Firearms Act itself).
And that won't stand in a Circuit Court (DCs can be a bit odd, but it shouldn't stand in them).

you will have individual firearms holders standing up in the district court, beside scumbags and criminals who will be only too happy to hear that Joe Soap has been refused a lisence for a Glock 9mm and as a decent citizern he has already been granted lisences for 2 x shotguns, a high power rifle and perhaps a .22, this all inthe district where they live, if there was not a need for a monitored alarm before there will be after.

That's possible.
It's more likely that the hearing will be in camera though, and if the in camera motion is refused, my understanding is that that decision (to hold the case in camera) can itself be appealed to a higher court.

do you think that the super will give a toss though!

So, out of curiosity sick, whom do you call when your daughter goes missing from the local disco, the NARGC or the ICPSA? Or do you call someone else, like the CAI or the Sports Council maybe?

Grizzly 45

bunny shooter wrote: »

Depends if you do it in a reasonable, calm manner or as you seem to act here :rolleyes: Like something demented But you would never act like that in reality I suppose

So you work as a psychologist as well????:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Somthing demented.....Expressing the facts in a forceful manner is now considerd demented??? Hmmm better roof off and build up the walls around the Dail then.Opinions have benn expressed more forcefully there by our glorious leaders than I ever have..
You must have got your training in one of the old Soviet Union political mental hospitals then...Where anyone who dared critizise the system was declared nuts and treated as such..:mad:
"Reasonable and calm" has been done BS....End results....See Boards.IE many topics on proposed gun laws in Ireland much to our benefit.

Do tell us your solution to make this abit more public and sympathetic???

daveob007

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So you work as a psychologist as well????:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Somthing demented.....Expressing the facts in a forceful manner is now considerd demented??? Hmmm better roof off and build up the walls around the Dail then.Opinions have benn expressed more forcefully there by our glorious leaders than I ever have..
You must have got your training in one of the old Soviet Union political mental hospitals then...Where anyone who dared critizise the system was declared nuts and treated as such..:mad:
"Reasonable and calm" has been done BS....End results....See Boards.IE many topics on proposed gun laws in Ireland much to our benefit.

Do tell us your solution to make this abit more public and sympathetic???

Has anyone tried the gerry ryan or joe duffy shows???
those 2 shows have a huge listenership,,can't do any harm.
There was an interview last weekend on limericks live 95fm with des crofton and two other people who i won't mention because they might not want their names on this forum.
these guys were speaking for us in a big way.
Thats the kind of publicity we need but leave it to the people who know what they are talking about.
by the way,,,,does anyone have a download or podcast of that interview cos i missed most of it?????

Sparks

can't do any harm

So wrong. We're one of the few sports where the phase "no news is bad news" isn't even close to being right.
Duffy&Co do not play to the underdog - they play to the lowest common denominator. Which isn't the same thing in our case because we're a small, fairly well trained and knowlegeble subset of the population. Which is why most of these laws can be fired our way in the first place - people don't know enough about us (because we've not been doing PR properly for long enough), so they mentally pigeonhole us in as "gun nuts" with all the stand-up comedy routines about the NRA in the US, and that's basicly how we wind up portrayed by Duffy&Co in order to boost ratings.

What we could be doing, and what we should be doing, but have not been doing, is writing in to every newspaper in the country, be it local, regional or national, and doing so on a weekly basis. ICABS do it, and they get political support and Deputies by the bucketload lined up saying they support them. We don't, and when the axe comes down like it's doing now, there's precious little to stop it.