Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

daveob007

Fair enough point,but the problem with the print media is that they sell papers by printing the stories that shock and frighten the public.
Classic example is the stories about criminals using quote (DEADLY GLOCK AUTOMATIC PISTOLS) UNQUOTE.
these stories have made the glock the most feared and hated gun of all guns which is totally unjustified.
Would they refer to us as being gun nuts or something like that.
At least with radio shows you can, to a certain extent control the topic and the way that we are portayed and be able to respond to any negative stuff thats been said.
The print media have done their fair share of damage to us already by printing these stories in order to sell papers.
We need a level playing pitch in which to get our point accross in a civilised but meaningful way.

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

At least with radio shows you can, to a certain extent control the topic and the way that we are portayed

It isn't anywhere near as easy as that. No offence, but there's a long, long, long gap between a level playing field and Duffy's show. The show may be aural excrement, but that doesn't mean Duffy isn't good at what he does. His job - and he's got decades of experience at it, while you'll have none - is controlling the discussion. You go on his show and you're in essence getting into a dogfighting ring as one of the dogs.

And while articles in the newspapers are subject equally to the biases of the journalists and editors, letters are not. They can be shortened, or have names trimmed out, but they can't have their meaning altered as radically as interviews or articles can. It's print-or-don't-print, basicly. Which is why ICABS and other such lobby groups have letter-writing as a core activity. And why we should too.

Grizzly 45

IF you want to get on the radio,it is better these days IMO to go to a local radio station and get an airing there.Mostly because these presenters are up and coming types and do still have a bit of a sense of fair play. RTE,being a State organ couldnt give two figs about fair play anymore so long as ratings andpaychecks are met.Ditto Ryan and Duffy.Neither of them will give fair play on a topic THEY dont like,not to mind all these shows are are soundbytes for the great unwashed or bored housewifes.
We could do this in a fashion of "talk radio" with radio.The US had this problem for years ,folks on the right were feeling they were not getting a fair shot at getting their opinions heard on TV.So they went out and took over the radio airwaves.It is now so effective with people like Rush Limbaugh,G Gordn Liddy etc.That prez Obamalama wants to cut them off under FCC rules.
Sooo what we do is try and get our messages across via local community radio stations.

The antis.We are well behind in the learning curve on media with them!!:(
How many gun clubs, shooting organisations etc here have utilised Facebook,Twitter,Youtube,Indymedia[yup them too!] and all the rest to get a pro gun /shooting message across and out there?? How many Irish pistol shooters of any disiplines have used this to put across OUR side of the story????? Any of us got a pro shooting Channel on our websites?Or even a properly run and updated website??The antis have well put,well updated and are using EVERY modern form of media to get their propaganda out there.
We are losing out BADLY on this and better learn to "ketchup" right sharpish on this.
They overdid the letter writing bit.If you look at their ICABS page last year it was write to Gormless Gormly on every percived slight against any animal rights.Poor old John must have had to order in a huge bulk paper recycle bin and forklift into the office to deal with all these letters!!:D That if they are as big and have the" support of the majority of the Irish pouplation"...Not to mind how many trees were cut down for all this letter writing.
End result is ;ICABS managed to ailenate one of their main supporters due to bothering him all the time with trivialities.:D:pac:

So letter writing has to be done carefully as well.Overdo it and it loses effect as well. Even doing the letter to the editors can be negative if over done as well.Think on our friend in Callan.He writes consistently and faxes his letters to all papers local,national and international proably on a weekly basis.And has been doing so for 25 years now.But when we read it them it is just "Ah ! It's JF just mouthing off again about fox hunting or coursing...NEXT!"AND they are repitious. Cub hunting ,Bull fighting Summer,Foxhunting ,occasionally shooting Autum & Winter,Coursing and misc Spring.With the odd variety on a theme.
Or they are just plain opportunistic and sick.Like another one from Waterford and from the fat little blonde one from the Ward,after the tragedy of a shooting in a land dispute last year...That backfired on them,as using a tragedy to advance a cause isnt too good here in Ireland.

So just be careful how you use the media folks.Remember they picture us as knuckle dragging ,wife beating NRA lovin trailer trash,and willdo anything to keep that image up there.


One other thing I will add to this is;
We dont have any political sponsor/politican who will stand and fight our corner as well.
The Gay folk have Sen David Norris who is gay.
The antis have plenty of Greenies who are against cute&cuddly animals being killed.
Who do we have that supports us politically who is a gunowner and goes shooting???
Would that politican please stand up?Please stand up?You will get a fine load of votes if you do.

zulu_dawn

Rovi,

sorry point noted.

chem

I see alot of growing support against the Mis bill lately. Not because of the firearms but because of the human and civil rights issues it contains.

Will this hold up the entire bill? Or can it hold up only parts of the bill? IF IT GETS HELD UP AT ALL.

BornToKill

You could be right but I think you might be mixing up two different bills. The Criminal Justice Amendments bill has been getting a lot of airtime yesterday and today but it's a different bill to the Criminal Justice Miscellaneous bill.

pullandbang

I contacted my local TD - Minister Noel Dempsey, about my concerns. He in turn wrote to Ahern and he sent me back the reply he received.

You can download it for yourself here

CJhaughey

He is worried about shotguns with pistol grips?
What the heck is that all about?
A pistol grip and a pistol are two entirely separate entities.
The minister is getting very bad advice from someone, IMO.

rowa

he has his knickers in a right twist over the "american style " gun culture , what ever that is , if he means there being 2+ firearms for everyone in the country , that would equate to over 8 million firearms held when currently we have only 250,000 , most of those being antiquated shotguns kept in farm houses.
as for pistols , i wonder how many actual cartridge firing pistols there are , 1,800 is the number often quoted , but how many of these are air powered or blank firing ? also in the club i am in nearly everyone has 2 pistols or more , i myself have three so if there are 700-800 licence holders in the country i'd say thats all there is , hardly an american style gun culture .

also the people who got there knifes out for the practical shooters should be ashamed of themselves , hope there day never comes .

Grizzly 45

pullandbang wrote: »

I contacted my local TD - Minister Noel Dempsey, about my concerns. He in turn wrote to Ahern and he sent me back the reply he received.

You can download it for yourself here

I did.WTF is this man on at all???:eek::mad: Practical pistol seen in America as even there an extreme shooting sport!!!WHY again are we comparing like with totally different???? So pistols are dangerous because they fire bullets rapidly,easy to conceal,an are used in rampages....PHEW,good job he has never heard of sawn off shotgus then!:eek::rolleyes:
This is just as if he has not taken aboard one counter arugement,explanation,suggestion or anything.Democracy and rational debate how are ya?
The ministers arrogance and bullying on these matters is breath taking in the way he is trying to force thru this measures,is somthing worthy of Hitler in the 3rd Reich!:mad:

pullandbang

My sentinments exactly.
I feel he has his own agenda and it's going through no matter what we or any one else says.
Keep up the pressure.

daveob007

This minister really has it in for guns!! and thats that.
pistol grip guns/black guns/short guns/rapid firing guns/ etc.
what if a person has some disability and requires a pistol grip?? is he/she going to be discriminated against for that,,more legal battles.
do we have to paint our blacks guns in bright colours so we can keep them?
judging by that letter the minister has not moved one little bit from his misinformed attitudes
this must get challenged or else we are going to get screwed for good.
And yes pistols are only the start next will be pump actions/semi autos/black guns/ basically everything he wants.
Gun culture my ass what about FFs brown envelope culture.
Ahern is sounding like a broken record that keeps playing the same old boring tune over and over.

Trying to stay calm but its hard.

.270 remington

hi all
things are not looking good re the proceedings in the dail today
fg pushed for a vote for changes to the cjb sections 10/11 they were defeated
was talking to my td a today he says it will not be changed once it has gone to the senate.

Darr

"things are not looking good re the proceedings in the dail today
fg pushed for a vote for changes to the cjb sections 10/11 they were defeated
was talking to my td a today he says it will not be changed once it has gone to the senate. "

true when was the last time you ever heard them(senate) rejecting somthing ... seems to be more a formality then anything now .
Darr

.270 remington

true when was the last time you ever heard them(senate) rejecting somthing ... seems to be more a formality then anything now

true words dar

they would be afraid of becoming un-employed if they rocked the boat .

chem

Has it not been explained to the minister, that bullseye target shooting with fullbore pistols is a sport??? Fullbore is not just for PP shooting!!

Sparks

Yes, it has been.
(And it's a massive sport - leaving out the ISSF fullbore stuff, the ordinary NRA .22/centerfire <=.45/.45 bullseye event is something like ten times the size of IPSC shooting or more).

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, it has been.
(And it's a massive sport - leaving out the ISSF fullbore stuff, the ordinary NRA .22/centerfire <=.45/.45 bullseye event is something like ten times the size of IPSC shooting or more).

So will the minister for sports know this and report back? Or is it all fullbores are evil and can be used in PP, so ban them now, type thing

Sparks

I would hope the MoS would pass the letter on to the ISC, who'd then talk to the NGBs... but somehow I can't quite see it going so smoothly

rowa

the most disturbing thing in this bill is the clause that allows him or any future to ban any firearm they see fit with the stroke of a pen and not to have to give any justification or reason to anyone , now that is just like a law from stalins russia or hitlers germany , and the non shooting public will be fobbed off with "its for public safety" and buy it .

rowa

i just finished watching the oirechtas report on rte 1 , it covered the criminal justice bill and showed the debate in the dail , pat rabbitte was again very good and made several good points against a blanket ban on the ownership of centrefire pistols , ahern took to his feet and had a rant against practical pistol shooting again , he also stated that as part of his ministry he gets to visit gardai all over the country and has asked the rank and file as too what they thought of the bill and they all said the same thing that pistols had to go .
charlie flanagan stood up and asked why the centrefire had to go and suggested a capped licencing system where a set number of licences would be issued each year and monitored , he also asked the minister to set practical pistol aside and consider there use for bullseye type paper shooting , ahern again stood up and had a second rant against practical pistol ,
the bill is to be guillotined tomorrow anyway as the taniste said it has to rushed through so as to allow the new licencing system to be implemented soon .
ahern also stated that all "responsible" firearms lobby groups supported him in this bill and were also against centrefire and practical shooting .

that must mean crofton and the nargc

dismayed

An absolute disgrace - people should be ashamed of themselves for letting this happen when it could have been prevented.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60977537&postcount=432

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20090702.xml&Node=H5#H5

Dismayed

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

An absolute disgrace - people should be ashamed of themselves for letting this happen when it could have been prevented.

Yes, indeed they should be. Those lads in charge of things back when this got put into motion back in 2000-2004 should be quite ashamed, don't you think? :rolleyes:

dismayed

What cod are you talking about?
There were no handguns licensed in 2000-2004.

A case was brought where that was changed - fantastic - we all benefited from that but could we 'all' safeguard that when the chips were down - not on your nelly - 'we' heckled each other and declared one of our own unclean and banished them to the pit of despair.

How well adjusted of 'us' - I'm sure 'we' will benefit from that in the fullness of time.

It was like a gang of lads tearing up the boards in a lifeboat so they can have a warm cuppa before the sharks arrive after having tied and bound the guy who wanted to row to shore.

Now the Minister has succeeded in prohibiting the licensing of any more handguns, prohibited one of the primary world shooting sports, given himself the power to do whatever he likes without the sanction of the Oireachtas and all with the full documented support of the Irish Shooting NGBs - bar of course the one that got shut down well in advance because they knew it would fight.

They just didn't count on the fact that a sport exists independent of an NGB and so the individuals who were about to have their sport prohibited fought back and approached their local TDs and in the end were out by 14 votes - I've seen that many people in the snug in Toners.

Mr. Ahern told people that if they supported his ban of IPSC he would put their case to the Minister for Sport and later that day the press announced that the Department of Sport is one of those on the block from An Bord Snip Nua. Well done lads.

He gets a letter from the President of the World body of one of the largest shooting sports in the world, represented and recognised by state bodies in over 80 countries making it at least as big if not bigger than the ISSF handgun sports And what did he do - he said it was not a sport.

Of course, he will recognise whats left because they 'are' sports.

Pull the other one - it has bells on it.

Dismayed

daveob007

Dear All,

As I have received so many enquiries, I have decided to send a single reply to you all. In case some may think we are sitting on our hands, let me assure you we are not and I have been very active on this issue from the off and even before.

The situation was that as of Tuesday night, the Minister was banning all handguns and those who have licences, would not have them renewed. I was aware of this at that time because I had been given a copy of the Minister’s speech to the Dail by the DOJ in advance of his making it. I was therefore in touch with my contact in the DOJ early on Wednesday morning and after a lot of argument and negotiating, he went to see the Minister. The outcome was satisfactory in that I managed to pull the situation back from the abyss. While I did not get exactly what I wanted, I did get the following:

Existing licence holders will be permitted to hold on to their handguns on a “grandfather’s” right basis and they will be renewed, subject to them showing they have a good reason for having them. This should not be a problem as they have already satisfied the “good reason” condition and presumably there have been no changes in their circumstances.

No new licences will be issued and anyone applying from Wednesday, November 19th 2008, and who succeeds in obtaining one, will be amenable to having that licence revoked when the new legislation comes in. Therefore, applications in the system (or before the courts) prior to the 19th will be processed without the threat of revocation.

An exception will be made for those who are taking part in Olympic class competitions with Olympic class handguns, which will continue to be licensed on the basis of “good reason” as before.

This is the outcome and I can only say that had the Minister implemented the originally intended complete ban, we would never succeeded in getting anything back. This leads me to a few observations. There were three occurrences which combined to bring this about. Firstly, the ongoing gangland feuding being waged with handguns (predominately 9mm); the ill-informed public utterances of John Deasy from Fine Gael who began to make the Minister look as if he was doing nothing about crime and finally, the number of 9mm licences being sought for use in practical pistol shooting which was regarded as an unacceptable form of shooting which had attracted more than a fair share of dubious characters and connections. I don’t intend to elaborate on this last factor as I believe a sufficient number of people will know exactly what I am talking about. Coupled with these combining at the same time, there was also the fact that it is only 3.5 years since we started to license handguns again and it became clear that there were many who felt we should have everything and be almost like the NRA in the US. That was never going to be sustainable in Ireland and if there are people who disagree with me on this, then I can only say they are living in a fantasy world. There was also the matter of the Firearms (Miscellaneous) Bill which has been in the drafting going back almost a year, before the current difficulties. One of the first amendments in the Bill is a provision banning the carrying of handguns in a public places. As you all know, the carrying of a licensed gun has never been a problem. That is, not until several complaints were received in the Department of Justice about a number of incidents where target shooting people were observed in shops and supermarkets carrying pistols in holsters on their hips, presumably on their way to/from the range. Now how stupid is that?!

This is not a time for us to be engaging in public debate. The climate is not right and there is no member of the general public going to sympathise with gun owners in these circumstances. Far better that we do our work away from the glare of publicity where I will continue to press our case.

Regards,

Des Crofton
Director
NARGC

.270 remington

will we get any compensation for OUR SPORTING GUNS .
not every handgun owner shoots pp but seemingly the minister could not care less.this cjb would be more suited in a dictatorship .wthf is his problem or has minister/government some other agenda that we do not know about.

rowa

press our case ?

a bit late for that ,the horse has bolted well and truly now and all the minister has to think about is the next category of firearms to ban .

daveob007

Just thought i would post that mail and let see what happened earlier in the year.
Anyway it looks like that its going ahead without changes being made.
So lets presume thats that,how do we prove that any new application we make for handguns will be for olympic syyle shooting???
is there a certain type of pistol or calibre allowed?

Just to say about the mail from the nargc. i am not supporting or condemming anyone for what has happened (except AHERN) and his advisors.
I dont know enough about the sport as i am only a newcommer since last year and have heard and read many comments for and against certain people,i reserve judgement.
We need to look to the future and what it holds for everyone elses guns and start our campaign now to protect whats left.
FULLBORE RIFLE OWNERS BEWARE
I am only presuming that the bill will go ahead as is and only hope for miracles, but its not looking good.....

rowa

he is clearly obsessed with the practical shooting issue , now matter what anyone said in the dail or questions they asked , it was the issue he constantly returned to , personally i think it was the gardai pushing his buttons in the back ground .
maybe an organisation such as the nra is unrealistic here but there is no reason not to have an organisation covering all the shooting sports , what has happened here was the other shooting bodies smelled danger and threw pistol shooters to the wolves to allow them to run and hide , personally i think its a disgrace , practical had already wound up voluntarily , so what then is the problem ?
the second bee in aherns bonnet was the concealability of pistols ,d'uh, two minutes with a hacksaw and a four foot long shotgun is concealable under a jumper or coat easily and more people have been shot with those than anything else and will continue to so into the future .
as for pistols used in organised crime , the pistols are so easy to obtain that they routinely left the glocks or sigs in the cars as they burned them out , if the underworld can get in drug shipments by the lorry load , why not firearms .

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

What cod are you talking about?

The cod where those who were claiming to represent all of us were busy setting in place the groundwork that got us so thoroughly shafted a few years down the line with the CJB2004.

could we 'all' safeguard that when the chips were down -
not on your nelly - 'we' heckled each other and declared one of our own unclean and banished them to the pit of despair.

If you talk with those who have been doing the bulk of the legwork of late on the IPSC side of things, you'll learn relatively quickly that some of those who you're lambasting were amongst those doing the most work; and that some of those now saying what you're saying were in fact amongst those who did the most damage.

and all with the full documented support of the Irish Shooting NGBs - bar of course the one that got shut down well in advance because they knew it would fight.

Actually, that's not the case. The "documented support" is actually documented protest at the laws the Minister wanted drafted. The problem is that now, as throughout the history of the state, the constitution says that private clubs don't have a veto over Dail Eireann.

Mr. Ahern told people that if they supported his ban of IPSC he would put their case to the Minister for Sport and later that day the press announced that the Department of Sport is one of those on the block from An Bord Snip Nua. Well done lads.

That's not what Ahern said, it certainly wouldn't have been agreed to because in case you've missed it, NGBs have had a fairly up-close and personal view of the way the Dept.of Sport and the ISC think of shooting sports.

making it at least as big if not bigger than the ISSF handgun sports

We are not going to go down the ISSF-vs-IPSC road here, thanks.

And what did he do - he said it was not a sport.

Be consistent, would you? Either he's a politician who hates our sport all of the time or he's not - what do you expect, that he'd turn around on the floor of the Dail and say "whoops, sorry about that lads, a guy I've never heard from before wrote in from outside the country, so I'm not going to push for this law, and no it was this foreign chap's letter that changed my mind, not the Irish lads who've been writing in protest for several months, my bad"? That letter should have landed in on his desk back in November (and I'm rather surprised it didn't).





Look, you're angry at what's happened? Well, join the rather large club (because it's not just the PP shooters who've been walloped here, it's ISSF, PPC, IMSSU, hunters and the guys doing bullseye shooting who've also been walloped - and that last group's the largest by the way). Pull up a chair, welcome to the wake, and where the heck have you been for the last five years when we needed people to do some legwork to prevent this from happening?.