Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

.270 remington wrote: »

will we get any compensation for OUR SPORTING GUNS .

No, because they won't be confiscated

rowa wrote: »

maybe an organisation such as the nra is unrealistic here but there is no reason not to have an organisation covering all the shooting sports

Yes there is, in fact there are several, and we've pointed them out again and again here.

what has happened here was the other shooting bodies smelled danger and threw pistol shooters to the wolves to allow them to run and hide

No, that's not what's happened, it's just how what's happened is being spun (mostly by people who'd otherwise find themselves being asked rather pointed awkward questions). Don't confuse individuals and groups like that, it only lets the rotten apples throw the rest of the barrel under the bus.

dismayed

You may not wnat to do the ISSF Vs. IPSC thing and neither do I - I simply stated that as handgun sports they are of equal standing in the world of international shooting sports.

If he is willing to get rid of one he will eventually get rid of the other as they are both handgun based sports. Remember, firearms are bad m'kay.

I just pointed out highlighting you (and by you I mean ANY sport) are an internationally recognised sport - or olympic recognised sport - remember sports get added and removed from the olympics all the time - will not save you as was evidenced in the Dail yesterday.

For example if IPSC is recognised as an Olympic sport in 8 years time will that mean it is again allowed in Ireland.

When the Minister asked the shooting bodies to select one of their number for sacrifice, instead of saying that sacrifice is not acceptable they said:

Des Crofton is the director of the National Association of Regional Game Councils, representing 28,000 gun licence holders in the country.

We asked for the association’s view on practical shooting, and he sent a letter to us on 25 June and it stated the following:

One of the matters discussed is the issue of practical and dynamic shooting. I wish to confirm that the associations in attendance at the meeting in December 2008 unanimously decided that practical pistol shooting was a cause of serious damage to the reputation of traditional shooting, as practised by Irish shooters heretofore, and was giving an undeserved bad impression of competitive pistol shooting generally. The associations present also unanimously determined that with immediate effect, none of them would approve of or support practical pistol shooting. This was the position then and to my certain knowledge, that remains the position today, as none of the associations in attendance at that meeting have given any indication that they have changed their position.

...Even today, I have received emails from both the NTSA and the NASRPC, both of which reiterate their previously stated opposition to practical shooting...However, I am concerned to hear that the impression has been given to some politicians that practical shooting enjoys support from some of the organisations or associations which met in Leixlip last December.

The Shooting Sports Association of Ireland representative wrote a letter in which he stated:

I am well aware of the Minister’s concern with practical or dynamic shooting, and I give a personal assurance that they will be neither promoted nor condoned by any of the 35 or so affiliated clubs and ranges. I welcome the majority of the steps in the legislation, and in particular, the co-operation of the Department of Justice and the work of the Garda unit. I take on board the stance regarding practical or dynamic shooting styles, and I accept that fully. It will not be part of shooting in Ireland.

and they will do it again if asked - provided the Minister organises a meetng in Mullingar where they get to wear their suits again.

Dismayed

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

No, because they won't be confiscated :(Yes there is, in fact there are several, and we've pointed them out again and again here. No, that's not what's happened, it's just how what's happened is being spun (mostly by people who'd otherwise find themselves being asked rather pointed awkward questions). Don't confuse individuals and groups like that, it only lets the rotten apples throw the rest of the barrel under the bus.

it think the problem is the "several" organisations , it should be just one , where there are several it leaves room for leverage by the minister .

how many organisations are there representing gaelic games ? one the gaa and they are a force to be reckoned with , if we were like that do you think for one moment that we would have been treated like this , no way .

dismayed

rowa wrote: »

how many organisations are there representing gaelic games ? one the gaa and they are a force to be reckoned with

That's why we still have the version of handball we all played against the wall when we were kids and it has not been banished to make way for the one recognised by the Olympic Council.

Grizzly 45

daveob007 wrote: »

Dear All,

As I have received so many enquiries, I have decided to send a single reply to you all. In case some may think we are sitting on our hands, let me assure you we are not and I have been very active on this issue from the off and even before.

The situation was that as of Tuesday night, the Minister was banning all handguns and those who have licences, would not have them renewed. I was aware of this at that time because I had been given a copy of the Minister’s speech to the Dail by the DOJ in advance of his making it. I was therefore in touch with my contact in the DOJ early on Wednesday morning and after a lot of argument and negotiating, he went to see the Minister. The outcome was satisfactory in that I managed to pull the situation back from the abyss. While I did not get exactly what I wanted, I did get the following:

Existing licence holders will be permitted to hold on to their handguns on a “grandfather’s” right basis and they will be renewed, subject to them showing they have a good reason for having them. This should not be a problem as they have already satisfied the “good reason” condition and presumably there have been no changes in their circumstances.

Good to hear that at least.And thanks for that to Des!
But we shall wait & see on this by Aug 1st.

No new licences will be issued and anyone applying from Wednesday, November 19th 2008, and who succeeds in obtaining one, will be amenable to having that licence revoked when the new legislation comes in. Therefore, applications in the system (or before the courts) prior to the 19th will be processed without the threat of revocation.

Good as well

This is the outcome and I can only say that had the Minister implemented the originally intended complete ban, we would never succeeded in getting anything back. This leads me to a few observations. There were three occurrences which combined to bring this about. Firstly, the ongoing gangland feuding being waged with handguns (predominately 9mm); the ill-informed public utterances of John Deasy from Fine Gael who began to make the Minister look as if he was doing nothing about crime and finally, the number of 9mm licences being sought for use in practical pistol shooting which was regarded as an unacceptable form of shooting which had attracted more than a fair share of dubious characters and connections. I don’t intend to elaborate on this last factor as I believe a sufficient number of people will know exactly what I am talking about

On the last point No Des we don't...Either put up or SHUT UP for once on this!Name names,places times and locations.


. Coupled with these combining at the same time, there was also the fact that it is only 3.5 years since we started to license handguns again and it became clear that there were many who felt we should have everything and be almost like the NRA in the US. That was never going to be sustainable in Ireland and if there are people who disagree with me on this, then I can only say they are living in a fantasy world.

There was also the matter of the Firearms (Miscellaneous) Bill which has been in the drafting going back almost a year, before the current difficulties. One of the first amendments in the Bill is a provision banning the carrying of handguns in a public places.

Why wasnt this info coming out from the FCP,and all the other organisations involved with it last year,in light of Ahernes comments in May 2008??

As you all know, the carrying of a licensed gun has never been a problem. That is, not until several complaints were received in the Department of Justice about a number of incidents where target shooting people were observed in shops and supermarkets carrying pistols in holsters on their hips, presumably on their way to/from the range. Now how stupid is that?!

Its also very stupid to make allegations on rumour,heresay or inneunendo on a public board or press and then when it comes to showing the evidence becoming all coy and not providing a place or proof thereof.
OR reporting such to the Gardai.Anyone ever been charged?Where did this happen?What Garda station handled it so the day log could be checked??Proof please!

This is not a time for us to be engaging in public debate. The climate is not right and there is no member of the general public going to sympathise with gun owners in these circumstances.

That sounds like total procrastination for 35 years.

Far better that we do our work away from the glare of publicity where I will continue to press our case.

[/

Oh yes Des,thats why we are reading your letter here and not on the NARGC website??:rolleyes:
BTW speaking from Limerick and the supposedly "war zone".NOT ONE PERSON I have spoken to here is fooled that this will stop the gangs and think it is just stupid that the ligit pistol owners are getting it in the neck.


BTW THanks to Dave for posting this

IRLConor

rowa wrote: »

how many organisations are there representing gaelic games ? one the gaa

There are three:

• GAA - Men's Football and Hurling, Rounders and Handball
• LGFA - Women's Football
• CAI - Camogie

They work together but are separate organisations. Maybe like the shooting organisations should (and most of the time, do)?

Darr

rather sad that a law that will bring little or no good to anyone pass through without much in the way common sense been said .. Will show you that you the public hold little weight in what the government think .

I confess to not know enough about laws and how they are enacted , but I take that the chances of this not becoming law is very remote ..

and when they finally get booted out ( and hopefully stay out) that to change it would be very unlikely also ?
is the a legal route that could block it ( just asking not suggesting )

what is even more sad is the amount of crap said here and on the range about other organizations and disciplines ..

I have been involved in both flying and boating ( sail & powerboat) and have never seen anything like it .. every organization involved in shooting should have been up in arms over this as bar the banning of pistols , it leaves it open to ban anything at ANYTIME ( god forbid anything would happen with a rifle or shotgun but if the Sunday world or some other paper print something about the evil sniper rifle or the savage Sawn off then on the Monday Minister Ahern to the rescue banning them )

anyone who thinks different is mistaken .
What we have seen here is sad more than anything . I’m not a pistol shooter I prefer rifles but I’m now in the position that pistol shooters were a few months back (limbo not know knowing when the ax will fall)

a sad day for all of us ... as if the clubs don’t get new blood they will close ...
less clubs/ranges =less shooters ..

Knob nation sometimes is very actuate on our government


Ignore me just my ramblings , but these type of ramblings get noitced !!!http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0703/1224249968695.html

Darr

rowa

i think you're right darr , the pistols are gone but knowing whats goning to happen next is the worry , i think "evil sniper highpowered rifles" that according to some journos can kill people 10 miles away will be next on the chopping block .
there was already a case a few years back where a limerick scumbag was trying to pick off a rival with a stolen .270 stalking rifle , i think that if this was to happen now we would be in serious trouble .

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

You may not wnat to do the ISSF Vs. IPSC thing and neither do I - I simply stated that as handgun sports they are of equal standing in the world of international shooting sports.
If he is willing to get rid of one he will eventually get rid of the other as they are both handgun based sports. Remember, firearms are bad m'kay.

I'm not arguing standing either (though you're wrong about numbers). And as to "eventually", what do you think banning personal imports will do to ISSF shooting in Ireland?

For example if IPSC is recognised as an Olympic sport in 8 years time will that mean it is again allowed in Ireland.

Yes, but that's about as likely - because of how this stuff works internationally - as finding a colony of leprechauns living in Dublin 12.

What's more likely is that .22 pistols would come off the olympic programme in a decade or two. So basicly, there's no upside here.

When the Minister asked the shooting bodies to select one of their number for sacrifice

Never happened. Despite some of the lovely rumours going about (which happen to portray some folks in a rather undeserved positive light, IMO).

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

it think the problem is the "several" organisations , it should be just one , where there are several it leaves room for leverage by the minister

Again, we've said it a hundred times here, one organisation won't work and can't be put together, for several very practical reasons (before you ever get to the very very real personal ones).

how many organisations are there representing gaelic games ? one the gaa and they are a force to be reckoned with , if we were like that do you think for one moment that we would have been treated like this , no way .

Apart from there being a lot more than just one (there's the three IRLConor mentioned, as well as the Player's association and the myriad regional and club-level groups), the GAA just got given their own pleasant surprise from the Minister for Sport with regard to funding, so frankly, you'd be wrong even if you weren't wrong about the number of bodies involved.

dismayed wrote: »

That's why we still have the version of handball we all played against the wall when we were kids and it has not been banished to make way for the one recognised by the Olympic Council.

Yup. It's also why GAA sports don't have any real international element (bastardised "international rules" games need not apply to count). And I'll bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in your pockets that if you took the top GAA handballer and put him up against the top Olympic handballer, the GAA lad would be going home feeling very depressed afterwards.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Good to hear that at least.And thanks for that to Des!

Are you kidding me? Grandfathering a sport is bad for one reason - grandfathers die. Grandfathering a sport this way, especially with such a small base, ensures it will die out rapidly.

On the last point No Des we don't...Either put up or SHUT UP for once on this!Name names,places times and locations.

The downside here, is that that's not what Des should be doing; he should be filing formal complaints against those shooters because they were openly breaking two or three laws by doing that. (I'm all for openness and transparency, but when you're dealing with a criminal action like walking about with a firearm in public like he describes, there are also correct procedures that must be followed, and you start those by going to the Gardai, not Boards.ie or the NARGC AGM).

Of course, if he's willing to let a sport go to the wall but not willing to bring a formal complaint against those who cause the problem in the first place, then there's rather a pointed, awkward question to be answered there.

Why wasnt this info coming out from the FCP,and all the other organisations involved with it last year,in light of Ahernes comments in May 2008??

It wouldn't have come from the FCP because the FCP's chair is a principal officer in the DoJ (if I've got the rank right), so if he said anything in public, it would have been treated under the rules as if the Minister himself had said it.

The other organisations sitting at the FCP table, however, that's another ball of wax.

Oh yes Des,thats why we are reading your letter here and not on the NARGC website??:rolleyes:

I have to admit, I'm rather amused at the way that "the glare of publicity" has come to mean here, while avenues like the ISD continue to make a dogs dinner of things and bring ever more faecal matter into the air circulation device...

dismayed

Never happened

Yes it did.

They may not have drawn lots, but to a man they called for or supported the prohibition of a legitimate shooting sport. Shameful.

The Minister read that fact into the public record yesterday. He may have Dail privilege and not have a clue what he is talking about but they know better and should be ashamed.

Every one of them knowing that it is a shooting sport,
Every one of them knowing it is not combat training,
Every one of them knowing that the Minister was wrong,
Every one of them coming to heel to see what treat they got.

As the NGBs for the Shooting Sports that is sacrificing one of their own - I dunno what else you could call it.

People can roll out all the guff they like about

"well if we didn't everything would be gone"

they should have had the liathroidi to stand up to the Minister and say they would not accept it. At least if squashed them they would have gone down with some pride knowing they had tried to do the right thing.

Now they are but sheep in his eyes and he knows they have no spine so he can take what he likes when he liked - un-challenged.

I suppose the one thing we can take from this is that they finally united - like sheep under a tree in a lightning storm.

Dismayed

murph226

The cert for my Sig was issued on the 18 of December 2008, what happens next ???

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

Yes it did.

No, it fecking didn't. The PP stuff was dropped on everyone's heads from a rather high altitude. And frankly, from what you've said here, I don't think you've had the inside story - I wasn't privy to most of it, but even I know you've posted some significant errors here w.r.t. the IPSA and so forth.

They may not have drawn lots, but to a man they called for or supported the prohibition of a legitimate shooting sport. Shameful.

And you're basing this on...

The Minister read that fact into the public record yesterday.

And there you go.

Like I said, be consistent. Or is the minister only wrong about shooting when saying why IPSC is bad, and he's never ever wrong, and never ever distorts things when talking about any other aspect of shooting? Do you think he's only a politician some of the time?

Of fecking course he said everyone's behind him in the Dail, what else would you expect him to say? "Oh gee, none of the experts think this is a good idea, and it's all off my own bat"? Or would you expect him to, not quite lie, but definitely present facts in a somewhat context-free manner?

For example, do or did the NTSA support IPSA? No. Because the ISSF would have derecognised them for doing so. It was the proximate reason for the NTSA leaving the SSAI (though there were others, it was the most urgent). Without that ISSF recognition, the NTSA might as well disband and go home - which means that (as the NTSA is a company) the directors in the NTSA actually, literally, legally could not support IPSA like that because their actions would be ruled ultra vires by any court if they did so, and whatever the directors did would be ruled null and void.

But that doesn't mean that the NTSA worked against IPSA. It just means they couldn't do the cheerleader routine. They happily worked with them in the FCP via the SSAI, and individual shooters were able to shoot PP and ISSF if they wanted to (and quite a few did, and they shot other disciplines besides). But do you think that that kind of nuance is going to be reported by the Minister or do you think he's going to say that the Olympic NGB is against practical shooting? Three guesses. And you're buying it - hook, line and sinker.

That is a very real reason why there's no single lobbying body for our sports in this country - even when the single worst laws are passed by a man publicly avowed as being opposed to firearms ownership by private individuals, we'll still take his word as gospel if it means we can throw rocks at one another. :mad:

Sparks

murph226 wrote: »

The cert for my Sig was issued on the 18 of December 2008, what happens next ???

If the bill passes on time, you'll lose it come renewal time (you'll receive a letter telling you exactly when)

murph226

Sparks wrote: »

If the bill passes on time, you'll lose it come renewal time (you'll receive a letter telling you exactly when)

With no compensation whatsoever?

Sparks

murph226 wrote: »

With no compensation whatsoever?

I doubt any will be offered murph, you'll lose the licence and be told to surrender the sig to a dealer with a restricted licence; from there you can either sell it or move it up north or to the IoM or somewhere else abroad. Because you've got those options, they'll claim you don't require compensation. 1972 all over again.

(That's not to say that that's fair, or that you couldn't challenge it).

G17

So the bill, in all likelihood, will go through, before Summer recess, effectively exactly as it was originally published save for a few typos?

Sparks

Looks like it so far G17
This bill and 16 others are getting guillotined (and damn few are happy about that given the crud that's in those 16 other bills) in order to meet the deadline.
Why the dail can't just say "Feck it lads, the economy's in the toilet, there's a ton of work to do, let's just work an extra month to set an example for the country and boost morale" I don't know. But I guess it's like Ned O'Keefe said the other day, "I was contacted by a representative for the parents’ council and told her straight out my position. Des O’Malley used to do the same. All things being equal, I asked her why I should look after the people of Rathcormac if they didn’t look after me? I told her there was no funding available."

daveob007

Sparks wrote: »

If the bill passes on time, you'll lose it come renewal time (you'll receive a letter telling you exactly when)

and pass it will because all those other ff tds who disagreed with the bill did nothing to stop it.
i am preparing a letter to al ff members outlining my disgust with this and to tell them all that i or my family will never vote ff ever again.

bunny shooter

FF will never see a vote from me again nor will FG thanks to Mr. Deasy and Labour due to Pat Rabbittes attempts to help us will benefit in all future elections. Complete 360 degree turnaround for me

rowa

frankly i don't know how fianna fail got re-elected the last time out , i went out specially to vote to get them out , they are a disgrace of a party , anything underhand or corrupt there is usually one of there number at the centre of it , i have never voted for this shower and i certainly never will in the future , i have a feeling i am one of millions .
i just watched the six-one news on rte , and i believe now the law society are up in arms over the other part of this bill , they are appealing the government to wait until after the summer break to allow this bill to be debated properly , it has fallen on deaf ears .

dismayed

Sparks wrote: »

do or did the NTSA support IPSA? No

......

But that doesn't mean that the NTSA worked against IPSA. :mad:

Sparks,

You should be a politician - yopu have a knack for answering a question that was never asked or replying to a statement that was never made.

I never said anything about IPSA - that's old news - so last year.

I said that, yesterday in the Dail, the Minister read an excerpt from a letter - not claimed he had support - he had a letter in which it was given - in which the NTSA supported a call to ban the sport of IPSC in this bill.
He read excerpts from letters from the NARGC, NASRPC and SSAI in which they also supported the banning of a sport.

We just have to wonder who will be next to be called 'unclean'?

I have no doubt in my mind that Mr. Ahern is in the end to blame for this but the shameful display of the shooting NGBs in supporting him in his moves is a disgrace. Those running these groups have lost all credibility, not just in my mind but in that of the Minister.

He knows they are cowards and will treat them accordingly..

Dismayed

daveob007

all the shooting organisations really need to get the act together and protect whats left.
we do need an umbrella group for everyone,a group who have no bias toward any form of shooting.
this is only the tip of the iceberg for shooters,,just wait till after the summer reccess is over and who knows whats to come.

rowa

the problems is its shooting organisationS plural , each will sell the other out to protect there own interests and money . and its all to do with money and cushy jobs .

BornToKill

Rowa, that's the wrong bill. The Miscellaneous bill is gone to the Seanad. The Amendments bill is in the Dail.

rowa

yes the bill on the news was the one about criminal gangs being tried without a jury , willie o'dea was speaking about widespread intimidation of jurys , the interviewer asked what hard evidence he had to support these claims , he said none but he had loads of anecdotal evidence , sounds familiar .

fianna fail- the anecdotal party

Rosahane

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/firearms-seized-in-co-louth-1805516.html

Maybe the Minister has a evil twin that he is protecting us from:eek::D

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

you have a knack for answering a question that was never asked or replying to a statement that was never made.

And you've a talent for not listening to the point I was making, which is that you're taking the minister's word as heinous and obvious lying one moment and gospel the next, and the only difference between the two moments is that the latter moment is when the Minister says something that lets us throw rocks at each other.

Those running these groups have lost all credibility, not just in my mind but in that of the Minister.

Fantastic. I'm actually happy to hear you feel that way, because now I know you're going to turn up to the next AGM to vote those who are doing the work out, and you'll step up to the plate and take over the workload.
Right?

Or are you just going to throw rocks and do no work, same as 98% of shooters have been doing since long before I started in this sport?

BornToKill wrote: »

Rowa, that's the wrong bill. The Miscellaneous bill is gone to the Seanad. The Amendments bill is in the Dail.

Yes, but both are under the same guillotine, aren't they?

rowa wrote: »

the problems is its shooting organisationS plural , each will sell the other out to protect there own interests and money . and its all to do with money and cushy jobs .

Money and cushy jobs? I can think of basicly two people in our entire community who earn a living from the work they do in shooting organisations - everyone else is a volunteer, and they usually put very large sums into their sport in terms of contributed time, petrol, phone bills, and just straight-out paying for stuff.

Whereas if you created one large uber-body in charge of everything, you'd have enough money for a few permanent staff, and then you'd see the problem cases crawling out of the woodwork like a scene from a bad disaster film involving ants...

daveob007 wrote: »

all the shooting organisations really need to get the act together and protect whats left.
we do need an umbrella group for everyone,a group who have no bias toward any form of shooting.

I'll happily predict, here, now, in public and in writing - if you create a single body for all shooting, and you put everyone in it, not only will you see the bitching, infighting and dirty tricks come back, but they'll rise to a level we've never seen before and frankly, I'd be surprised if the sport lasted a year.

dismayed

Sparks wrote: »

you're taking the minister's word as heinous and obvious lying one moment and gospel the next

Are you saying that you know the NTSA did not send that letter to the Minister supporting the ban?

Dismayed

BornToKill

Not disputing that at all - rush and guillotine and all that. I was just observing that the Law Society is not raising issues in relation to the Miscellaneous bill or questioning it's constitutionality.