Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

Are you saying that you know the NTSA did not send that letter to the Minister supporting the ban?

I'm saying I can't see any mention in the transcripts from Thursday where the minister says he recieved anything from the NTSA.

He does read out an excerpt from an email from Des Crofton giving support for the ban where Des Crofton claims to have received an email supporting the ban from the NTSA and NASRPC; but given that both the NTSA and NASRPC oppose the ban on fullbore pistols and have been actively working to try to prevent it, I don't know what Des is on about there. I also don't know when that email was written, or when the emails Des was talking about were sent, or what the actual content of those emails was - and btw, given that the Minister has just called Des a liar in the Dail, I don't know how much credence to give what I'm hearing from there.

(The Minister said he had no idea where the figure of 99 euro for the licence came from; Des said it was put forward by the department, if I'm recalling correctly).


Maybe you should reread the transcripts dismayed? I think you might have read them wrong the first time (and no shame if that's the case, I've done worse myself).

dismayed

both the NTSA and NASRPC oppose the ban on fullbore pistols and have been actively working to try to prevent it, I don't know what Des is on about there

More evidence that the Minister has mislead the Dail and the country

Possible evidence that the Minister was mislead

Surely the likes of this stuff is grounds for the Seanad to refuse to sign off on the bill and force the Dail to debate it again?

Dismayed

dismayed

And yet what he said was:

Even today, I have received emails from both the NTSA and the NASRPC, both of which reiterate their previously stated opposition to practical shooting

Which as I said shows that they supported the ban.

Dismayed.

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

And yet what he said was:

That's not what the Minister said, that's the excerpt of the email that Des sent to the Minister. Check the indentation of that section compared to the rest of the transcript.

dismayed

Are you saying that they did not send Des these emails?

Dismayed

Sparks

I'm saying I have no idea what emails were sent to Des, when they were sent, what was in them or even if they were sent.

dismayed

I know he lied outright when he said:

The evidence our people and the Garda have received about what has been going on in a number of practical shooting ranges indicates that it amounts to nothing other than a mimicking of combat style shooting

There are a limited number of ranges in the country where actual IPSC could have taken place -

I know of only four where it did take place.

I know that actual IPSC does not in any way whatsoever simulate combat.
I know that the bodies mentioned by the Minister and indeed the Gardai and his own department know this also.

If there was actual simulated combat taking place it was not IPSC.
I know that the bodies mentioned by the Minister, the Gardai and his own Department know this also.

IPSC, the international governing body and many of those individuals who took part in the sport in Ireland provided their local TDs, Ministers etc will all the information they needed to realise this.

In response the Minister stated that it was not a sport and he had the support of the NGBs in banning it.

Until the NGBs named by the Minioster publicly claim that they did not in any way support the Minister in introducing this bill, I will assume that what he has stated is correct.

Dismayed

packas

Pity all shooting NGB's can't work together to safguard all sport shooting disciplines. Take France for example. The 2007 IPSC European Handgun Championships were organised by the French Olympic Federation. Why couldn't that have happened here

Sparks

packas wrote: »

Take France for example. The 2007 IPSC European Handgun Championships were organised by the French Olympic Federation. Why couldn't that have happened here

Because here the ISSF instructed the NTSA to not be involved with IPSC shooting in any way on pain of derecognition. How FFTIR organised it so they didn't get sanctioned by the ISSF I don't know (though I suspect their rather arcane structure might have played a role, and I do know they were definitely threatened with expulsion over this before). But here, there was no choice.

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

Until the NGBs named by the Minioster publicly claim that they did not in any way support the Minister in introducing this bill, I will assume that what he has stated is correct

So for your personal assurance, you want them to put their necks on the chopping block with no hope of getting anything back for the sport, in order merely to counter the word of someone whom you've just said you know lied.

Dismayed, I get your sentiments, I really do, but (a) you're about five or six years late to the party here, and (b) you're just throwing rocks here, out of anger, without any idea of who they ought to be thrown at or where they are.

rowa

it all seems to be a donedeal now anyway , the bill will go ahead unless we are extremely lucky and the dail is struck by lightening ,

if rimfire pistols are to be allowed for paper target shooting , what is the situation regarding getting a pistol into the country and changing pistols etc ?
no more personal imports so does that mean dealers will be allowed keep pistols in stock , any ideas ?

dismayed

So for your personal assurance, you want them to put their necks on the chopping block with no hope of getting anything back for the sport, in order merely to counter the word of someone whom you've just said you know lied.

That support is one of the keystones of the Ministers claim that IPSC is not a sport and therefore should be banned. He is piggybacking the entire bill on that support including the prohibition on new pistol licenses.

If those NGBs did not give that support and publicly claim so, then the Minister can be challenged.

The Opposition parties and even a good number of his own party would not support him yet he claimed he had the support of those that manage the shooting sports in Ireland and even then he just managed to get his amendments through without alteration.

If they have any integrity left the NGBs would be publicly stating that they in no way whatsoever supported any of the apects of the bill that effected the licensing of firearms for use in sport or the shooting sports themselves.

---

Now, if they did give that support they should hang their heads in shame for what they did.

If they won't say they did not support him, for fear of losing what they have, then they are the spineless sheep I said they were in my first post and everyone will know that they are to blame for this state of affairs almost as much as Mr. Ahern himself.

The Minister is not an omnipotent all powerful Ming the Merciless. He is just a politician, an elected official, if you erode his support base he must negotiate with you.

Plenty of people did that, as evidenced by the vote in the Dail yesterday, however, he claims the NGBs as part of his support base and therefore will not negotiate.

Does noboy in the NGBs remember what happened in Britain? Do they not have a sense of deja vu? Or are they blinded by the presense of the almighty himself?

Lemmings come to mind.

Dismayed

Chipboard

In the context of the big debate which would be going on now, if Fianna Fail would allow new legislation to be debated, the following may be relevant. If the figures could be compiled for the number of a) injuries and b) fatalities as a result of target shooting, horse racing, rallying, motorcycle racing, mountaineering, etc I am sure that it would present a very strong argument for our sport to be left alone.

Is boxing the most dangerous sport?

Not in terms of deaths. On that measure, horse racing, sky diving, mountaineering and scuba diving are more dangerous. An assessment of their relative fatality rates conducted more than 20 years ago concluded that boxing caused 1.3 deaths per 100,000 participants compared with 11 for scuba diving, 51 for mountaineering and more than 120 for sky diving and horse racing. But the BMA says it is not death but the chronic brain damage that is most worrying about boxing.

Why is the BMA not calling for other sports to be banned?

Lots of people are injured as well as killed while participating in other sports. The majority view, however, is that if people want to take part in dangerous activities that is a matter for them in which the state should not interfere. The BMA argues that boxing is different because it is the only sport in which the purpose is to cause harm. In other sports, harm is an accidental side effect.

from
How dangerous is boxing and are doctors right to want to ban it?
Independent.ie
Friday Dec 7, 2007

I realise that some might argue that its not the risk to participants but to third parties if the tools of the trade are misused, but look at rallying. I do a fair bit of mileage during working hours and I have to put up with rally enthusiasts (lappers or turbo heads as they are called around here) putting my life at risk every day of the week because they are obsessed with rallying and too immature to show any consideration for other road users. How can they be allowed to modify their cars so that they look (and to some extent perform) like rally cars and then be allowed to drive them on the public road, while at the same time I will now not be allowed to use my firearm in a strictly controlled environment to which the public have no access (a firearms range) for my own enjoyment.

Minister Ahern knows what he needs to do to solve gangland crime - he needs more jail cells and more Gardai, but that would cost money and he doesn't have money. He can ban pistols with the stroke of a pen - it will cost nothing and it might convince some naive people that he is tough on crime.

meathshooter

daveob007 wrote: »

Dear All,

As I have received so many enquiries, I have decided to send a single reply to you all. In case some may think we are sitting on our hands, let me assure you we are not and I have been very active on this issue from the off and even before.

The situation was that as of Tuesday night, the Minister was banning all handguns and those who have licences, would not have them renewed. I was aware of this at that time because I had been given a copy of the Minister’s speech to the Dail by the DOJ in advance of his making it. I was therefore in touch with my contact in the DOJ early on Wednesday morning and after a lot of argument and negotiating, he went to see the Minister. The outcome was satisfactory in that I managed to pull the situation back from the abyss. While I did not get exactly what I wanted, I did get the following:

Existing licence holders will be permitted to hold on to their handguns on a “grandfather’s” right basis and they will be renewed, subject to them showing they have a good reason for having them. This should not be a problem as they have already satisfied the “good reason” condition and presumably there have been no changes in their circumstances.

No new licences will be issued and anyone applying from Wednesday, November 19th 2008, and who succeeds in obtaining one, will be amenable to having that licence revoked when the new legislation comes in. Therefore, applications in the system (or before the courts) prior to the 19th will be processed without the threat of revocation.

An exception will be made for those who are taking part in Olympic class competitions with Olympic class handguns, which will continue to be licensed on the basis of “good reason” as before.

This is the outcome and I can only say that had the Minister implemented the originally intended complete ban, we would never succeeded in getting anything back. This leads me to a few observations. There were three occurrences which combined to bring this about. Firstly, the ongoing gangland feuding being waged with handguns (predominately 9mm); the ill-informed public utterances of John Deasy from Fine Gael who began to make the Minister look as if he was doing nothing about crime and finally, the number of 9mm licences being sought for use in practical pistol shooting which was regarded as an unacceptable form of shooting which had attracted more than a fair share of dubious characters and connections. I don’t intend to elaborate on this last factor as I believe a sufficient number of people will know exactly what I am talking about. Coupled with these combining at the same time, there was also the fact that it is only 3.5 years since we started to license handguns again and it became clear that there were many who felt we should have everything and be almost like the NRA in the US. That was never going to be sustainable in Ireland and if there are people who disagree with me on this, then I can only say they are living in a fantasy world. There was also the matter of the Firearms (Miscellaneous) Bill which has been in the drafting going back almost a year, before the current difficulties. One of the first amendments in the Bill is a provision banning the carrying of handguns in a public places. As you all know, the carrying of a licensed gun has never been a problem. That is, not until several complaints were received in the Department of Justice about a number of incidents where target shooting people were observed in shops and supermarkets carrying pistols in holsters on their hips, presumably on their way to/from the range. Now how stupid is that?!

This is not a time for us to be engaging in public debate. The climate is not right and there is no member of the general public going to sympathise with gun owners in these circumstances. Far better that we do our work away from the glare of publicity where I will continue to press our case.

Regards,

Des Crofton
Director
NARGC

Has the minister done a u turn on this before the 18/9/2008 clause

It wasn't me!

Any letters I've known of have not condemned practical pistol. Refusing to offer support is not the same as condemnation, but can very easily be spun as such by the minister. In some cases, such as the NTSA, it would in fact be illegal for them to offer support for practical pistol, as Sparks has demonstrated, and others have said that while they do not support practical pistol (as it is beyond their remit) they do not support the minister's measures with regard to prohibition of pistols, and I don't know of a single NGB that hasn't argued against that.

dismayed

Don't turn it around

I did not ask anyone to support anyone.

I asked them to state publicly that they did not support someone - namely Minister Ahern.

He is not claiming that those bodies did not support IPSC.

He is claiming that they supported the bill in calling for IPSC to be banned.

I ask them to refute that, publicly.

A simple statment by the NGBs along the lines of:

We in no way, whatsoever, offered the Minister our support for the prohibition of the licensing of handguns for use in sport nor the prohbition of internationally recognised shooting sports in the Criminal Justcice (Misc. Provisions) bill 2009

Why they could not do that s beyond me.

Dismayed.

Hivemind187

Disgusting. Simply disgusting.

Shooters/airsofters/paintballers/pretty much anyone: "Do you have evidence?"

Minister Ahern "How dare you ask for evidence! Bailiff remove this man and have him publically flogged".


... I hear the weather in Arizona is lovely this time of year.

BornToKill

I don't mean to interrupt but just a quick point.

Sparks wrote: »

The Minister said he had no idea where the figure of 99 euro for the licence came from

That's not quite what he said. Charlie Flanagan said:

"I was surprised to learn of the varying categories of licence fee. Up to recently the cost was €66 per gun and it is now €99 per gun per year. This was introduced by way of regulation, the publication of which was minimalist."

The minister then said:

"I am not sure where Deputy Flanagan received his information regarding an apparent licence fee of €99 per year. There is no such charge."

There isn't either since, everything else aside, the fee will be for a three year licence.

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

That support is one of the keystones of the Ministers claim that IPSC is not a sport and therefore should be banned.

Really? Because from where I'm standing, he wanted to ban something in the wake of the Geoghan shooting and now here we are. Logic (at least of the non-political kind) had nothing to do with it.

If those NGBs did not give that support and publicly claim so, then the Minister can be challenged.

Maybe - but can he be successfully challanged? I know objections have been raised within the FCP to a lot of this stuff, informally, formally, verbally and in writing. Hasn't helped anything. Those objections can be pointed out to the next Minister in an effort to seek a repeal, yes, but against this Minister I don't think they carry much weight.

The Opposition parties and even a good number of his own party would not support him

77-63 says you need to recheck that assumption

yet he claimed he had the support of those that manage the shooting sports in Ireland

Put it this way - he claimed that support. That doesn't necessarily mean what he's portraying it as. An NGB not getting up and walking out of the only negotiation channel to the DoJ could be construed as support, even though it's only assent in the same way that not running away fast enough is you assenting to be mugged.

For example, he claimed to have been given a round of applause at the last FCP meeting. There's a gap, however, between that image and the reality where it's a polite gesture to the office (rather than the man in the chair) to clap at the end of a meeting where a senior government official is present. It's all spin.

If they have any integrity left the NGBs would be publicly stating that they in no way whatsoever supported any of the apects of the bill that effected the licensing of firearms for use in sport or the shooting sports themselves.

They have been - you've just not been reading their websites, their emails or noting them going in to meet with the DoJ, the Minister, the opposition TDs or any of the other things they've been doing.
Again, not saying all are angels - but quit trying to throw out the entire barrel because you think there's one rotten apple in there, would you?

If they won't say they did not support him, for fear of losing what they have, then they are the spineless sheep I said they were in my first post and everyone will know that they are to blame for this state of affairs almost as much as Mr. Ahern himself.

That's terribly useful.

By the way, how long have you been helping run matches, collate results, apply for grants, select and send off teams to international matches, and generally do all the legwork involved in runing an NGB?

The Minister is not an omnipotent all powerful Ming the Merciless. He is just a politician, an elected official, if you erode his support base he must negotiate with you.

Indeed. And right now, that support base is 77 votes to the opposition's 63, and that Minister has the authority to eviscerate our sport overnight with a single SI. And that's before the Bill is passed, by the way.
He may not be omnipotent, but he's potent enough to do us serious damage.

Does noboy in the NGBs remember what happened in Britain? Do they not have a sense of deja vu?

I sure do. I remember ISSF shooters there appearing on national UK TV to protest the ban, the NSRA actively protesting it as well, and today I keep seeing folks who seem to have the idea that the NSRA had been waving pom-pom's and cheering on the conservatives and liberals as they competed to draft the most inclusive ban. Even though that never happened.
And now I'm seeing the same thing here. Yeah, I'm getting deja vu allright...

It wasn't me!

dismayed wrote: »

Don't turn it around

I did not ask anyone to support anyone.

I asked them to state publicly that they did not support someone - namely Minister Ahern.

He is not claiming that those bodies did not support IPSC.

He is claiming that they supported the bill in calling for IPSC to be banned.

I ask them to refute that, publicly.

A simple statment by the NGBs along the lines of:



Why they could not do that s beyond me.

Dismayed.

Hmm, how about the NTSA's statement on their website a while back stating their resentment at the sport being dealt with in criminal legislation, a sentiment echoed by other groups? That do?

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

I ask them to refute that, publicly.
...
Why they could not do that s beyond me.

They did. About a fortnight ago on the NASRPC website, and at the FCP meeting for all the others. If you won't read their website, it's hardly their fault.

BornToKill

dismayed wrote: »

came quite close with a vote in the Dail yesterday going 77/63 in support of the ban - hardly the whitewash the Minister was hoping for.

If the shooting bodies had stood as one and lobbied to prevent the Minister from making any prohibitions that vote may well have gone the other way.

Do you not understand how the parliamentary process works? I mean the whips and the party system? The government would have won a vote on anything yesterday by 77/63 because that was the non-paired numbers in the house. It would not have mattered what the motion was.

That all guns be banned - 77/63. That from now on it should only rain during the night - 77/63. It was not a quite close vote. It would not have gone the other way. It was just the inevitable outcome of the system once a vote was called and government and opposition divided.

Mech1

simple answers please,

Q: I have had my glock 9mm since april 07, can i keep it under this new law?

Q: Do I have to do anything different than last renewals time?

Sparks

Mech1 wrote: »

simple answers please,

Sure.

Q: I have had my glock 9mm since april 07, can i keep it under this new law?

Maybe.

Q: Do I have to do anything different than last renewals time?

Yes.

Mech1

C'mon Sparks help, simple dosn't have to be short.

packas

Sparks wrote: »

Because here the ISSF instructed the NTSA to not be involved with IPSC shooting in any way on pain of derecognition. How FFTIR organised it so they didn't get sanctioned by the ISSF I don't know (though I suspect their rather arcane structure might have played a role, and I do know they were definitely threatened with expulsion over this before). But here, there was no choice.

It's a shame that one organisation would behave like that towards another. After all they are both sporting organisation.

Sparks

Mech1 wrote: »

C'mon Sparks help, simple dosn't have to be short.

No, but we've gone over these points several times in the last few pages.

But basicly, noone really knows. You won't lose the licence automatically because you've had it since before 11/11/08, but that doesn't mean you'll get to keep it; and you'll have to reapply rather than renew the licence this year anyway.

Sparks

packas wrote: »

It's a shame that one organisation would behave like that towards another. After all they are both sporting organisation.

Shame or not, it's what we have to work with. This sort of stuff is way above our pay grade, so to speak.

Grizzly 45

According to the latest press clippings from the Irish Times.He is now claiming that criminals are infitrating gun clubs to learn how to shoot,and that practical pistol was being used to train criminals.Good job he was speaking with Dail privilige.WTF is this coming from?

Guess the recession is hitting the criminal class as well then.The line usually from the Gardai is they go off foriegn to to the US or stag weekends in Prauge to get their "combat training " there:rolleyes::rolleyes:

dismayed

Mech1 wrote: »

simple answers please,

Q: I have had my glock 9mm since april 07, can i keep it under this new law?

Q: Do I have to do anything different than last renewals time?

The dilemma is

[1] All licenses used to be renewed on July 31st unless you cancelled it
This year all licenses are extended to November at which point they are revoked.

[2] You have to apply for a license again as if it was the first time

[3] Gardai will not be issueing new licenses for handguns

That makes [2] and [3] cancel each other out

You must apply for a hangun license anew and the gardai are not allowed to issue new handgun licenses.

D.E.D.

Dismayed