Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Darr

well not really surprised but same situation here

"Quote: Originally Posted by budda15c
Cheers. That's more or less what I didn't want to hear "

This amounts to a slow end to pistol shooting in Ireland with no new blood coming in to sport and membership of clubs falling away as people give up and not replaced. Well folks time to get out your finger and let your Local TD then know your displeasure with it , I had very little reason to vote for my local TD and now I have another reason not to I shall be informing him of this .

I might not do any good but as we are probably the most apathetic of peoples it certainly can’t do any harm if a flood of letters, faxes and emails were sent .

Darr

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, the more I read this, the more I'm sure that there is not one thing in there that is good for the sports.
For gun dealers, yes, as we now all have to go through them.
For pistol owners, obviously not. For rifle or shotgun owners, nope, because now we're all getting caught on the buying in of ammo from abroad (and prices here are up to four times those outside the state, even across in N.I.). Yes, we do get the 3 year licence, but we already had that. There's no quid pro quo in here at all. No raising of the 1J limit to something more sensible, even though sub-1J stuff is now back under the Act. No one-man-one-licence deal. No eliminating that little loophole of "if I don't talk to you for three months, you're considered refused and notified". And the persona designata status is being encroached upon (though not actually eliminated), so even the Supers don't know where they stand on licencing. FFS. The whole thing is one soggy mess of pottage.

Yep, needs a whole pile of refinement to be properly viable, so we'll see whether it actually gets it.

-We lose pistols, bar in very limited cases (and who's going to buy a €1000 pistol to try out ISSF pistol without the cheaper option of secondhand Buckmarks and the like to learn with. Make no mistake, ISSF pistol will suffer dramatically here too)
-We lose personal importation. Firearms dealers benefit from this. The rest of us do not. We also now can't really bring in ammo from outside the state without the cooperation of an RFD, which gives them further monopoly. Say hello to increased prices.
-The provision for a reloading licence has been repealed. This may or may not be dealt with in the revised explosives act, but hey, they're not helping us so far, so why hope for more now?
-We can now be stopped and searched without a warrant on the suspicion of any member of AGS that we may have firearms.
-Airsoft now comes under the auspices of the firearms act again. How far a step is it to consider it "practical or dynamic shooting" and ban it outright again? It's not the feckin' troubles anymore!

We get approximately nothing from this but a collective sore hole.

jwshooter

"one soggy mess of pottage"
did we expect any thing better from this crowd, at least they did not let us down on that count.

just more to add to the rumours that some one is stealing there brains in templemore.

PS. whats the knife act ,i cant carry my knife in any public place .

so if have to walk along a road with my rifle and knife ,like i would a lot i can be stopped searched and fined.

chem

[SNIP] Also alot of the law can only be judged if we know what the guidelines will be for them.

Eg: you have to be a member of the olympic shooting team to get a .22 pistol, designed for the olympics etc........



MOD NOTE:
Post edited, see post #47

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

"one soggy mess of pottage"
did we expect any thing better from this crowd, at least they did not let us down on that count.

just more to add to the rumours that some one is stealing there brains in templemore.

More like on their way into Leinster House.

Sparks

Darr wrote: »

This amounts to a slow end to pistol shooting in Ireland with no new blood coming in to sport and membership of clubs falling away as people give up and not replaced.

For fullbore, certainly.
For smallbore and air, not so much, but the "designed for" (as opposed to "suitable for") wording does do damage to the low-cost entry point to pistol shooting, which is a major kick in the crotch. It's very fustrating as well - the Sports Council demands that there be pathways into the sport and low-effort entry points and that inclusion and participation be major factors in the sport, and then the DoJ comes along and slams the door on our fingers on those same points (not that the ISC isn't slamming doors on fingers itself) :mad:

I might not do any good but as we are probably the most apathetic of peoples it certainly can’t do any harm if a flood of letters, faxes and emails were sent

And please, don't wait on the NGBs for this, just go and do it. Somehow, I can't see a united front there because the interests of at least one body (the gun dealers association) are conflicted here.

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

For fullbore, certainly.
"designed for" (as opposed to "suitable for")

Practically speaking, how the bloody hell do you differentiate?? What will the Super want? Do they expect you to supply a product brochure or a page out of ISSF news with someone shooting said 'designed for' pistol?
I bet Ralf Schumann with a Browning buckmark would make a show of one of us with Pardini? Buckmark, not necessarily desinged for it, but more than capable with the right shooter

Sparks

Practically speaking, you read the Manufacturer's description.
Which means a Walther GSP is in; but a Hammerli X-esse may well be out because it's not designed for the olympics (it's perfectly suited for use as a mid-level pistol for ISSF shooting, but that's not what it's designed for, it's designed for general plinking).

jwshooter

bigred wrote: »

Practically speaking, how the bloody hell do you differentiate?? What will the Super want? Do they expect you to supply a product brochure or a page out of ISSF news with someone shooting said 'designed for' pistol?
I bet Ralf Schumann with a Browning buckmark would make a show of one of us with Pardini? Buckmark, not necessarily desinged for it, but more than capable with the right shooter

you will have to have a issf number be taking part in the sport ,world cups, etc.

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

you will have to have a issf number be taking part in the sport ,world cups, etc.

I wonder how long it'll take them to ask me for mine going in the gates of the range on a sunday morning. :rolleyes:

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

you will have to have a issf number be taking part in the sport ,world cups, etc.

No you won't - ISSF numbers are only given out to people who are shooting internationally for their country, which means that you have to make the Irish Team to get one. That's obviously not going to work, the documented procedure for making it onto the Irish Team is evidence to that.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

No you won't - ISSF numbers are only given out to people who are shooting internationally for their country, which means that you have to make the Irish Team to get one. That's obviously not going to work, the documented procedure for making it onto the Irish Team is evidence to that.

The fact that something is obviously stupid doesn't seem to matter much.

Incidentally, about £350,000 for a six bedroom house in Douglas. Hmm...

chem

To stop us importing our own must be against some kind of EU laws

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The fact that something is obviously stupid doesn't seem to matter much.

No, but obviously unworkable is something else, or there's no point in any of this and we might as well say **** You to the government and just give up on having a sport and just go back to the courts.

Sparks

chem wrote: »

To stop us importing our own must be against some kind of EU laws

If you can find the one, let us know...

bunny shooter

After a quick scan, FCP have some questions to answer :eek:

Will study this properly before I comment

It wasn't me!

Also, did people see the bit where the minister has the option to prohibit certain ammunition on criteria including ballistic coefficient?! If anything illustrates the lack of information displayed by this bill, that does.

daveob007

OK so I HAVE MY PISTOL CERT SINCE SEPT 08 THAT WILL BE RENEWED.
What happens if i want to trade it in for something else???
will a dealer take my gun and will i be able to change the cert details????
for another gun ie if i trade my evil glock will i be forced to buy a .22 olympic pistol instead (confused already)
this is some load of horse s**t but its going to sort out the gun crime!! isn't it??? or if someone has a .22 pistol will they be able to upgrade for a 9mm etc.

we are going to have loads of fun with this pile of manure

Sparks

I thought that the ballistic coefficient ban was something to do with banning ammunition like the rounds used in the P90? (You could licence the civilian version of the P90 in Ireland at the moment, but unless EU law has something to say on the matter - and I've not searched, so it might well do - they couldn't restrict you under Irish law from getting the nasty body-armour-defeating rounds it uses instead of the standard ball ammunition they also make for it).

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

OK so I HAVE MY PISTOL CERT SINCE SEPT 08 THAT WILL BE RENEWED.
What happens if i want to trade it in for something else???

Then you'd be looking for a new cert. I.e. You're stuck with it. The Certs are also non-transferable, so I can't buy your old fullbore pistol off you as I can't get a cert for it.

for another gun ie if i trade my evil glock will i be forced to buy a .22 olympic pistol instead (confused already)

Basicly, from what's written in the bill, yes.

we are going to have loads of fun with this pile of manure

Anyone taking bets that this will make it into law after the current administration has been given the boot?

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

I thought that the ballistic coefficient ban was something to do with banning ammunition like the rounds used in the P90? (You could licence the civilian version of the P90 in Ireland at the moment, but unless EU law has something to say on the matter - and I've not searched, so it might well do - they couldn't restrict you under Irish law from getting the nasty body-armour-defeating rounds it uses instead of the standard ball ammunition they also make for it).

Ballistic coefficient has nothing to do with terminal ballistics, so, if that's the case, epic legislative fail. And it's a damn stupid idea in the first place.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Then you'd be looking for a new cert. I.e. You're stuck with it. The Certs are also non-transferable, so I can't buy your old fullbore pistol off you as I can't get a cert for it.

Basicly, from what's written in the bill, yes.

Anyone taking bets that this will make it into law after the current administration has been given the boot?

Speak to local opposition candidates *now* is your best bet, and get written opposition to the bill if at all possible.

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Speak to local opposition candidates *now* is your best bet, and get written opposition to the bill if at all possible.

And go after the Justice committee as well, where amendments can be brought in. There's only a few TDs on that - a concentrated effort by grassroots shooters to them would be noticed in a hurry.

Sparks

And I wouldn't limit it to the opposition, as the FF backbenchers are desperate for votes right now (seriously, hasn't anyone in here noticed even the election posters are scrambling to distance FF candidates from the FF party?).

It wasn't me!

That's very true. The current administration does us no good, so change them. A new minister for justice and we can have this farcical proposition done away with overnight, or enormously changed to reflect the work our representatives have contributed to this, rather than this effort, which does nothing but put the boot in.

bunny shooter

Looking at the comments here I get the feeling things are not good :eek:

I have read the text published and now I am going to now disect it and anyalise it in detail.

Sparks as an adamant defender of the FCP process do you now feel your faith in it has been confirmed?

Sparks

BS, this is the Minister's doing, not the FCP's - and sadly there isn't a body in the state that can tell a Minister to go get bent. Or a process that can 'keep the Minister in line'.

As to the FCP, it's flawed (FFS lads, publish some damn details on the process) but it's still the best we have.

That's not to say we have a lot, you understand. Be under no illusions - the FCP doesn't outrank the DoJ or the Minister or the Dail. And really, would you want them to?

It wasn't me!

bunny shooter wrote: »

Sparks as an adamant defender of the FCP process do you now feel your faith in it has been confirmed?

I'll throw my own two cents in here, just because I'd like to make my own view clear.

The FCP represents an enormous amount of hard work and forward thinking on the part of all of the sides represented on it, a fine symbol of cooperation and striving towards mutual interests and solutions. However, we currently have a minister who's not listening to anything, who for one reason or another hasn't decided to just outright scrap the project, just to ignore it. The current minister's attitude towards the FCP does not detract from the long-term gains that a consultative panel of all interested parties represents for both the sports and the legislative interests.

chem

The law seems so wide open, that it was left for the commish to allow any "guide lines" he likes. Also, is everything else on the restricted list now banned?

Anyone have a link to the restricted list?

Rovi

Can I ask that anyone planning to contact their political representatives do so in a thoughtful and constructive manner?
'Spamming' the entire Dail with a message that boils down to: "You are all cnuts and you can't deny me my rights" will do nothing but turn off the fence-sitters and moderates, and confirm the antis in their belief that we're all nutters and a danger to society.

Target your representations to specific people (your local representatives in all parties (especially if you know them personally), opposition spokespersons on Justice, the members of the Justice Committee, etc), and above all, be constructive.
Give them something to work with: suggest alternatives to the proposed measures, explain (in layman's terms) why you think specific measures in the Bill are incorrect or poorly thought through, etc, etc.

Don't forget to raise your concerns with those lobbying for your vote in the County Council/European elections too.