Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Between "practical pistol" and combat pistol training


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWZaBVW4TPk

NO Combat shooting ....SPORT!:)
Minister NO ban this!!

WORLD of Difference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHB7R-aL9Go Combat shooting...
BAD!:mad:Minister Ban this!!!


Cant make this any simpler!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Deputy Dermot Ahern: No. My issue is one of security, not the definition of sporting activities. We are putting this in primary legislation, not secondary legislation - I am not giving myself the power to do this behind closed doors. I am putting it here in lights that we want to ban, in effect, practical shooting. We do not want to ban normal paintball operations.

Deputy Charles Flanagan: And other types of target practice that would be accepted as international competitive sports.

Deputy Dermot Ahern: Static target practices. It's not much, but it obviously means that he's going to bring in the Minister for Sport and give him some role in deciding what are 'internationally recognised' static target sports. Other than practical shooting, there appears to be no other qualification in that statement.

I think we can accept that practical shooting is a dead duck. There was nothing in those exchanges to suggest that the opposition were likely do push the issue at all and the Minister seems very determined to put a stop to it:


Quote:
I want to send a clear message today to those who think they can continue these activities by changing the name of their organisation. There is no equivocation on this point and there is no room for semantics. When my firearms range inspector commences certifying target shooting ranges, this point will be made abundantly clear.
rrpc= Don't even go there seems to be the message.

can make this simpler. don't move:o

Grizzly 45

PJ,
This was to illustrate the differences between practical and genuine combat training for PaddyEnfield and others who STILL belive it is one and the same.Anyone who could be arrsed would by simply unbaisedly comparing some youtube footage of the differences in both would be the 100% wiser.:rolleyes:But I guess never let facts upset a egotistical crusade or ignorance:rolleyes::mad:

Mr Mole

The following letter was received by me, and submitted to a Dail Deputy who had the courage to have it read into the record of the Dail during the debate last week. The letter is from Mr Nick Alexakos, President World Governing Body I.P.S.C. The Minister ignored it. See Dail transcripts. Mr Alexakos also supplied the names of the 80 Countries, and their respective National sporting Associations that recognise I.P.S.C as a lawful legitimate sport. Please read it, and hopefully put some belief into the statememnt from a man in this esteemed position.

I hope the letter also clarifies issues about I.P.S.C for the readers and contributors of Boards.ie, and educates those who have seen fit to know more about the sport than the President of the World Association concerned, I.P.S.C.

An open letter to whom it may concern:

I have been following the emergence of efforts to ban the ownership and use of firearms in Ireland with the exception of those used to compete in the Olympic shooting sports. The proposal is using the sport of IPSC shooting, which is not an Olympic sport, to draw a line between those shooting sports that are acceptable and those that are not.

Based on what I have read in the newspapers and followed in debate during a meeting of the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defense and Women's Rights on June 18th, it is necessary and critical that the facts about IPSC shooting be known.

By way of background, the International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) was founded as a shooting sport in 1976 and is recognized as a sport in over 80 countries (list attached). IPSC is an international sport, emphasizing safety and safe gun handling, accuracy, power, and speed, in high-level competitions around the world.

Although the early beginnings of IPSC were martial in origin, the sport developed just as karate, fencing, and archery had developed from their martial origins into well known, internationally recognized sports. As a point of fact, many Olympic sports today have their origins in military training exercises including the Olympic equestrian sports of dressage and eventing, and the Olympic Biathlon of skiing and target shooting, and like these sports IPSC is a civilian target shooting sport.

I noticed with interest that the term "extreme sport" was used many times to describe IPSC shooting. I believe it would have been invaluable to the discussion to have a firm understanding of the term 'extreme sport' and what kinds of sports define the term.

Generally speaking, 'extreme sports' is a media term for certain activities perceived as having a high level of inherent risk and danger. IPSC as the internationally governing body does not allow nor condone the promotion of IPSC as an 'extreme sport' because IPSC does not fall within the definition of that term, nor does it in the minds of promoters and marketers of extreme sports.

IPSC has an exemplary safety record and incidents of injuries are so rare as to be less than what is recorded for any Olympic sport let alone any non Olympic sport. Also, IPSC sanctioned competitions are judged on strict criteria and use highly competent range safety officers. Any safety infraction, no matter how small or unintentional, results in a match disqualification.

Arguments for banning non-Olympic firearms make a sharp distinction between stationary targets and moving targets harkening to Olympic level shooting of stationary targets as the only acceptable shooting that should be allowed. I draw attention to the sports of skeet, trap, and sporting clays shooting wherein the targets indeed move.
IPSC competitors do have some moving targets, but they are designed to ensure a 0% margin of error in safety and the vast majority of targets are, in fact, stationary.

I would also like to set the record straight about remarks that IPSC creates settings that are combat based such as home invasions or hostage scenarios. These are simply and boldly a misstatement of the facts. The IPSC does not allow any element of a competition to create such scenarios. Further, the use of humanoid targets is banned.

The suggestion that air pistols and paintball guns should be substituted for the firearms appears to contradict other statements that IPSC shooting itself trains combatants. It defies logic that air pistols and paintball guns are acceptable even though they could just as effectively serve as criminal training tools. This statement is made only to illustrate that it has no relevance because IPSC is a recognized lawful, civilian sport recognized as such around the world.

Nick Alexakos
IPSC President

dismayed

People are PMing me with links to all kinds of discussions that have taken part on boards over the years.

A couple of points.

I have been lurking on here for ages. I have seen all the stuff that people have written - the political one upmanship when there was good news - the greasy pig carry on when there was bad news. Sad at best.
All of what I have posted thus far is a rehash of stuff i have read on boards - which I have also heard elsewhere. A small % is deduction such as suggesting that those that are left standing when the dust settles were probably the ones who perpetrated the whole thing.

I've posted some stuff where I outlined what I surmised happened lately - and the posts got deleted - I was told to post proof and I can say whatever I want. I will have a think about that.

I never said that anyone specific did or said anything - bar repeating claims I had read on boards itself - pity these items cannot be posted without proof when it doesn't suit people.

[MOD SNIP]

Sickamick, Grizzly, etc. You are doing nobody any favours. Least of all yourselves when you just perpetuate the impression that boards is populated by denizens of the night whose posts will probably see them lose their licenses in due course.

Posting images or videos of people doing anything is not a good idea. The facts are irrelevant to the discussion. Sparks has posted images of himself doing practical with an air pistol with a Glock sticker on it. Garret Byrne pointed out at the latest FCP meeting that there would be no practical pistol allowed with olympic pistols.

2 + 2 = 22??

Dismayed

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

PJ,
This was to illustrate the differences between practical and genuine combat training for PaddyEnfield and others who STILL belive it is one and the same.Anyone who could be arrsed would by simply unbaisedly comparing some youtube footage of the differences in both would be the 100% wiser.:rolleyes:But I guess never let facts upset a egotistical crusade or ignorance:rolleyes::mad:

grizzly,

don't even think about it the guillotine waits:o

IRLConor

dismayed wrote: »

I have been lurking on here for ages.

Posting too. Your other account has a join date from years ago.

I've been debating as to whether I should ban this account as a duplicate but you've been let say your piece. If you push it too far and I have to ban your "dismayed" account I'll ban the other one too.



Notice to all posters:

I've been fairly busy over the last while and I haven't had the time to keep on top of this thread. Having (re-)read a good chunk of it I'm disgusted at a lot of you. I understand that you're all angry, I am too. That's absolutely no excuse to start having a go at each other.

Cop on.
Calm down.
Treat each other with respect.

That means:

• No calling each other names
• No slinging muck at ANY organisation or sport.
• No sly digs
• No conspiracy theory nonsense
• No spreading rumours

If not, I'll start making examples of people.

Grizzly 45

Sickamick, Grizzly, etc. You are doing nobody any favours. Least of all yourselves when you just perpetuate the impression that boards is populated by denizens of the night whose posts will probably see them lose their licenses in due course.

In plain ENGLISH please.....???What are you trying to say Dismayed??
Are you specifically saying somthing,or trying to say somthing about my/other persons posts??

Posting images or videos of people doing anything is not a good idea. The facts are irrelevant to the discussion.

OH! So we are now dispensing with evidence are we???
FACTS are irrevelant to a discussion?????? Where here?Or in the Dail?or ??Could you be abit more specific???

Sparks has posted images of himself doing practical with an air pistol with a Glock sticker on it.

What does that prove exactly???Actually it is a pic of his Air pistol with a Glock logo on it.Does that mean that if I wear a Glock logo baseball cap I am engaging in practical pistol?????

Garret Byrne pointed out at the latest FCP meeting that there would be no practical pistol allowed with olympic pistols.

Speaking of trying to use a sive for bailing water.And anyway it doesnt matter if it was used with a firearm of any type or calibre,it will be illegal.ESTABLISHED FACT!!! AND your point being exactly??????

2+2= 698.125 in the case of this post.

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And anyway it doesnt matter if it was used with a firearm of any type or calibre,it will be illegal.ESTABLISHED FACT!!!

Not quite established fact now:

MPB extract -

'...does not apply to the facilitation
or engagement in the use of a firearm pursuant
to an authorisation under section 2(5)(a) of 25
this Act, where the muzzle energy of the firearm
is less than 16 Joules'

Mech1

Dear

---

,
You were in touch with me some time ago in relation to the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

I should say that over the last number of weeks I have received many emails from sports people in a similar position to yourself and I also met with

---

---

and ---

---

who briefed me fully on the issues involved.

On Friday last we had the Second Stage debate on this Bill in the Seanad. I attach a copy of the debate here.

Deputy John Curran, Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform dealt with the issue on behalf of the Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern.

You will see that at the end of the debate it says Committee Stage will take place tomorrow Tuesday. For your information please note that this has actually been delayed until Wednesday of this week.


Kind regards,

Eugene






____________________________________________
SENATOR EUGENE REGAN
FG Seanad Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Seanad Éireann
Leinster House
Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Phone: 01 6183279
Fax: 01 618 4576
Email: eugene.regan@oireachtas.ie

Names removed as i dont know if they want names published

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

Sparks has posted images of himself doing practical with an air pistol with a Glock sticker on it.

No, I haven't. I've posted a picture of my air pistol with a glock sticker on it. Wee bit of a difference there.

Dvs

Hello Sparks ,
Don't you know those Deadly Glock Stickers are in demand by criminal gangs,
I have heard anecdotal evidence that there are "experts" that believe it is only a matter of time before someone that is asleep will have a deadly Glock sticker stuck over their mouth and another stuck over their nostrils causing unconsciousness maybe even death!

Senior Garda management are allegedly concerned that these stickers are easily concealed, at a recent screening of the new star trek movie a security operation was launched when one man was overheard saying,
he had some spock stickers for sale to the highest bidder.

The difference between Glock, Spock, and Heavy Rock, stickers to a certain extent is irrelevant as they might get mixed up and some dimwit that does not know the difference between Glock, Spock, and Heavy Rock may be in a position of power and the fact that he is making himself look like a total idiot on the world stage and a mindless glove puppet for the people that are supposed to work for him, may not bother him in the least.

Dvs.

dismayed

Sparks you may have been taking the piss but you posted images of yourself shooting practical with an Air Pistol.

http://sparks.journals.ie/2009/01/15/practical-joking/

That is no less taking the piss than posting images of someone shooting popup targets in a forest in kentucky.

Dismayed

TrapperJohn

dismayed wrote: »

Sparks you may have been taking the piss but you posted images of yourself shooting practical with an Air Pistol.

http://sparks.journals.ie/2009/01/15/practical-joking/

That is no less taking the piss than posting images of someone shooting popup targets in a forest in kentucky.

Dismayed

Find that leap of imagination a little too far even in this disjointed and fractious thread.

I suppose if I posted a photo of myself in a dark suit with sunglasses then I'd be acting as a bodyguard so .....

Grizzly 45

Trapper! You Imposter!!!
You will NEVER be employed in that kit or rig by anyone FFS!!:eek:
I mean,your ear piece is sticking out for all the world to see.The shades are sooooo 70s.Ditto the shirt.You looked like you've slept in the pants!And no decent display of hardware,C'mon every BG is going to display his 1000 piece set of hardware collection to impress the punters!!!You obviously never went to the Caughtshortt BG school & golf course here in Louth.Now THATS the way real BGs work and look!:rolleyes::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Sparks,Grip man! BOTH thumbs along the same side of the slide.:D:D
DV
You also heard that the film "School of Rock" is going to be banned as well??
As somone in Govt thought it was "School of Glock" a training film on how to be a gurrier in Irish schools?

TrapperJohn

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Trapper! You Imposter!!!
You will NEVER be employed in that kit or rig by anyone FFS!!:eek:

Shucks caught out despite my best Men in Black impersonation :D:D

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

Sparks you may have been taking the piss but you posted images of yourself shooting practical with an Air Pistol.

Not in here, I didn't. Post a link to the post on boards if you would.

dismayed

Sparks wrote: »

Not in here, I didn't. Post a link to the post on boards if you would.

It's on your signature in all of your posts - at least that's where I found it - I dunno if there is a reference elsewhere on boards.

My Training log

(I cannot see your signature if I am logged in but if I log out I can)

Dismayed

Sparks

I asked for a link to the post on boards dismayed, not a link to a private blog entry on another site.

ancienthunter

Hi looking at this I understand the difference between the two below and they are completely different.

My question is what defines combat/self defense shooting.
I am into martial arts, I train with weapons for self defense. I know this is not a martial arts forum. But in an effort to try to ban what this minister might define as using a "deadly weapon for combat training" might have an effect on other types combat training. All in all I can understand the difference but I do not see why anyone would offer it up as a token of good faith to his most high dermot ahern to satisfy his stupid Idiotology.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Between "practical pistol" and combat pistol training


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWZaBVW4TPk

NO Combat shooting ....SPORT!:)
Minister NO ban this!!

WORLD of Difference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHB7R-aL9Go Combat shooting...
BAD!:mad:Minister Ban this!!!


Cant make this any simpler!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

TrapperJohn

Mr Mole wrote: »

I would also like to set the record straight about remarks that IPSC creates settings that are combat based such as home invasions or hostage scenarios. These are simply and boldly a misstatement of the facts. The IPSC does not allow any element of a competition to create such scenarios. Further, the use of humanoid targets is banned.

Nick Alexakos
IPSC President

Sorry folks but I'm not a pistol shooter and I went to have a look at what YouTube had on IPSC shooting to see what it was all about. The humanoid target seems to be used on just about every video I've watched. Unless my definition of a humanoid target is off?

I'm not taking sides in this but I was confused by the statement above from the IPSC president. If its outline looks like a torso or a standing person is that not humanoid?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpLnm282qjU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dCYZ6C0Y0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Rnmf9QJDo

Dr_Teeth

TrapperJohn wrote: »

Sorry folks but I'm not a pistol shooter and I went to have a look at what YouTube had on IPSC shooting to see what it was all about. The humanoid target seems to be used on just about every video I've watched. Unless my definition of a humanoid target is off?

I'm not taking sides in this but I was confused by the statement above from the IPSC president. If its outline looks like a torso or a standing person is that not humanoid?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpLnm282qjU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dCYZ6C0Y0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Rnmf9QJDo

None of those videos featured IPSC targets. Those targets are used in the US, but are not used internationally, and certainly not in Ireland.

An IPSC target is an octagonal shape, like this:

http://www.ipsc.org/image/ipsctarget.jpg

dismayed

A distinction must be drawn between IPSC and USPSA.

IPSC is the International Practical Shooting Confederation - which is comprised of more than 80 countries.

USPSA is the United States Practical Shooting Association
USPSA is the United States IPSC affiliate, as IPSA was the Irish IPSC affiliate.

USPSA, however, applies different rules within the boundaries of the United States, which are neither recognised, nor sanctioned by the IPSC.

USPSA would, as would any brand, promote theselves as the original form of IPSC, however, they have spilt from IPSC because of the IPSCs lack of willingness to include items such as the 'USPSA target', which you highlighted, in the sport.

Minister Ahern and his department, have seen fit to allow Google to set the policy in our country - we elected them so I suppose cannot argue with that now.

The United States has an extremely large population a large percentage of whom own firearms, a large percentage of whom own handguns.

Even though the Minister would liken Ireland to the United States in this regard - we all know the folly of that - I would not be surprised in half the firearms in civilian ownership in the entire world were in the Unites States. It is different from everywhere else and always will be so.

It would, therefore, be only reasonable to assume that there would be a large percentage of all webpages, videos, etc on the net being from the United States. Therefore the majority of what you will find when looking for IPSC will be,in fact, USPSA.

The best place to look for actual info on IPSC is
The IPSC Itself:
http://www.ipsc.org
or the individual regions that comprise the IPSC.
http://www.ipsc.org/regions.php

Google should not be used to form Government policy.

Dismayed.

TrapperJohn

Dr_Teeth wrote: »

None of those videos featured IPSC targets. Those targets are used in the US, but are not used internationally, and certainly not in Ireland.

I take your point but look how it appeared to me when I stuck IPSC into YouTube and got back a load of US guys and gals shooting at humanoid targets.

Either its IPSC with the right target or its not IPSC, giving the USA an exemption to use humanoid targets does not do the cause much good.

TrapperJohn

dismayed wrote: »

USPSA is the United States IPSC affiliate, as IPSA was the Irish IPSC affiliate.

USPSA, however, applies different rules within the boundaries of the United States, which are neither recognised, nor sanctioned by the IPSC.

Thanks for the short history which I wasn't aware of but again it begs the question of why one rule for the US and another for the rest of the world.

If the USPSA is so out on its own with its own way why don't the IPSC drop them and affiliate another body of true USA IPSC shooters?

Having the IPSC president turn around and say we don't use humanoid targets and then the USA affiliate turning around and saying "well yes we do but only because we are different" is a real head spinner for me.

Kryten

dismayed wrote: »

It's on your signature in all of your posts - at least that's where I found it - I dunno if there is a reference elsewhere on boards.

My Training log

(I cannot see your signature if I am logged in but if I log out I can)

Dismayed

Had a look at this. So because Sparks is using his Baikal (glock ) air pistol on the outdoor range in the Midlands, it's practical shooting? Care to notice the little 10meter air pistol target in the top right of the target board.

dismayed

Kryten wrote: »

Had a look at this. So because Sparks is using his Baikal (glock ) air pistol on the outdoor range in the Midlands, it's practical shooting? Care to notice the little 10meter air pistol target in the top right of the target board.

Kryten,

I do not want to keep going over this ground but that is not what I meant at all.

i simply said that Garret Byrne (DOJ) said at the last FCP meeting that there would be no pracitical shooting with Olympic pistols. Sounds a bit daft as a proposition as time is a factor in your score and there can be steel targets which must be knocked down but I decided to try and find out what prompted it and I found this:

http://sparks.journals.ie/2009/01/15/practical-joking/

Where Sparks was taking the piss out of IPSC by pretending to shoot it with an Air Pistol upon which he had stuck a glock sticker.

I was using it as an example of how posting an image or video can be taken out of context and used against you - for the benefit of people who were posting youtube videos.

Instead it became a mickey measuring competition.

Dismayed.

Sparks

Kryten wrote: »

Had a look at this. So because Sparks is using his Baikal (glock ) air pistol on the outdoor range in the Midlands, it's practical shooting? Care to notice the little 10meter air pistol target in the top right of the target board.

I think dismayed dug back a few months, past the letter to the Minister condemning the Misc.Bill, past a look at the Misc Bill's problems, past even the funnier photos of my Death to the Teddy Bear Desk, past a post on shooting .303s, .223s, .308s and a 9mm, past a post lamenting the daftness of banning fullbore pistols, past a post on my new Pistol case, past a slew of posts on the OCI/ISC scrap, the funding from the ISC for the sport, the Range & Clubs SIs, and right back past photos of various air rifles wearing glock stickers to the post with the original glock air pistol photos.

Is it just me, or is that an awful lot of work to go to to find mud to sling?


ps. For context, here's the text at the beginning of that post, I think a few posters in here might spot themselves in the joke...

Are you an ISSF air pistol shooter?

Are you tired of being belittled by folks who need their pistols to be so loud that shooting without ear protection will damage their hearing permanently with one shot, before they consider them to be a real man’s gun?

Well then this is for you, courtesy of $10 and a sticker seller off ebay

Behold! My brand new Baikal IZH-46M Glock 46M air pistol!

...

Ha! Let’s hear how ISSF pistols aren’t black and scary enough now!

Sparks

dismayed wrote: »

I decided to try and find out what prompted it and I found this

Shame you didn't find out what prompted it though, isn't it? Because it sure as blank wasn't that photo!

Might I suggest you review the records of who said what about 9mm pistols and the ISSF measuring box at that FCP seminar earlier this year? (And I take it you're talking about that seminar when you say "last FCP meeting", because the minutes of the last FCP meeting - the one where the Minister attended - were not released, so you couldn't know what happened there without someone at that table breaking confidential agreements).

ancienthunter

I for one cannot see why the goverment has a problem with what shape the paper target is. or if they walk hide or run around with the bloody pistol. Is there not real issues to be dealing with.. Also if they ban practial is it not likely that the gards will be calling up standing on the side lines to make sure your not doing practical? Is offering up this not giving them more leeway, to make more and more restrictions. I cannot understand how shooters can really give a crap about practical shooting and what someone likes to do or if it should be banned, god...this whole mess just wrecks my head. I advocate common sense only I think people should do the same and not bargain with anyone.

Sparks

ancienthunter wrote: »

Also if they ban practial is it not likely that the gards will be calling up standing on the side lines to make sure your not doing practical?

No, they'd just refuse to licence the range, which would make shooting there (or in fact doing anything there, right down to sweeping the floor as a club member) an illegal act with a hefty punishment.

Is offering up

Offering???
Nobody offered them this ah, it pretty much landed on everyone's head from a height!