Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Grizzly 45

ancienthunter wrote: »

Hi looking at this I understand the difference between the two below and they are completely different.

My question is what defines combat/self defense shooting.

Combat/self defence shooting are AGAIN two dfferent aspects. By rights it should be called Defensive pistol technique.As combat actually suggests an actual war,and a pistol is the last thing you would carry as a main arm going to war.
If you watched the starting sequences of "inside the Crucible" you would see
1] Torso targets [2] push away,draw and fire techniques,multiple attackers etc etc. NONE of that would be allowed on a practical pistol course.
The guns themselves ..Practical pistols in their more extreme forms are known as "raceguns" and are about as suitable for combat/self defgence shooting as a Formula 1 car is for daily commuting.They are not somthing any sane police force or military lawyers would allow as issue service sidearms.

It did have,and I empathise the DID bit ....a police training techinique back in he 1970s.But this has gone,and the USPSA became the combat part.THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM.They can get mixed up very easily by the uninitated or the cursory glance and reading.

I am into martial arts, I train with weapons for self defense. I know this is not a martial arts forum. But in an effort to try to ban what this minister might define as using a "deadly weapon for combat training" might have an effect on other types combat training.

Most of them already ARE banned here since 1992.. Courtsey of Willie O Dea and Ray Burke.:rolleyes:

All in all I can understand the difference but I do not see why anyone would offer it up as a token of good faith to his most high dermot ahern to satisfy his stupid Idiotology.[/

Mahammod and the Mountain,and said reluctance for mountain to come to abaove mentioned person. And not just Min Aherne...We have enough mountains here as well :rolleyes:
Not to mind somone wanted to know wether the first video was combat shooting.Hopefully they now know the difference.

If the Gardai want to come to a range in the future to be sure noone is doing practical,I'm sure they will have a very boring and taxpayer wasting monies day...Standing around looking at the law abiding shooting,maybe not they might like to try a shot themselves..
I'm sure no sane range owner in the future would risk their liscenses and range facilities to cater for an illegal sport .

Grizzly 45

QUOTE]Thanks for the short history which I wasn't aware of but again it begs the question of why one rule for the US and another for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]

Proably because the sport originated there and the governing body is in CA,and the original IPSC target looked a lot more humanoid when it started??

If the USPSA is so out on its own with its own way why don't the IPSC drop them and affiliate another body of true USA IPSC shooters?

Good question,and one I cant answer.But my theory is some in the USA felt that IPSC had gone too far into a genuine sport,and wanted to go back to the original concept of what practical pistol was,which Jeff Cooper invisaged it in the early days.

Having the IPSC president turn around and say we don't use humanoid targets and then the USA affiliate turning around and saying "well yes we do but only because we are different" is a real head spinner for me.[/

Now,you arecomparing two different definations of a "humanoid" target from two different sides of the pond.What we call a humanoid target here,IE a small box on top of a bigger one is not considerd a humanoid target in the US.It is in Europe.Stateside ASFIK a humanoid target is one with discernable human features.

sikasmicke

I just realised that I have a tactical knife that I bought in the USA a couple of years ago.

? Will it be banned when the new legislation comes in

? Will I have to get a non tactical knife instead with a blade half the length

Seriously it would be funny if it were not to effect so many people badly.

Perhaps we could ask people to draw up two lists:

1) The winners (those who will actually benefit from the Misc Act)
I suspect the list will be short
2) The people and business who will loose out?

1) Individual owners of firearms
2) Clubs who they are part of
3) Wifes or husbands who are delighted to get rid of them to the range for part of the day
4) Businesses who depend on shooting sports
5) Range operators who have invested in new ranges
6) The Gardai denied off duty practice
7) Property loss, loss on all the gear invested in
8) Local business due to loss in club competitions
9) ...................................

So what will be gained by the Gardai and Justice

Not a lot

Benefit to the legal profession, lots of tax payers money in court cases.

Lost by the Gardai and Justice: The confidence of the shooting community who have supported all manner of restictions placed on them to continue to enjoy their Sport.

Maybe caue for a new Thread perhaps

ancienthunter

sikasmicke are you serious???? I know your not...
I am going to call my butter knife a tactical butter knife and paint it black.
It will still be kept in the butter dish though.

Yes I can understand what it is its very interesting all the little details however I still think one does not have to agree with "them" that its dangerous or will cause danger to other, because if you do your only putting down a sub group of your own sport and that will only come back as karma

Simply pointing out the difference is enough.

Also martial arts training with weapons (swords, knife disarment, kombatan, katana etc.) is not ilegal, that is bs. unless your doing something dangerous of course.

TrapperJohn

Grizzly wrote:

Good question,and one I cant answer.But my theory is some in the USA felt that IPSC had gone too far into a genuine sport,and wanted to go back to the original concept of what practical pistol was,which Jeff Cooper invisaged it in the early days.
.

Thanks Grizzly, I can understand the dilemma with the USA but I would think its not good for the sport to have such a derogation just to keep the USA happy.

Sparks

We've been asked to post this from Sikamick on the video he posted; can folks wait until he's back on the board if they want to respond to him please?

Sikamick wrote:

Yes the video is in Northern Ireland and the point I was about to follow up with is, that NI is where the troubles started and they still have subversives active there, yet the sport of practical shooting is allowed to continue without been seen as a treat. Has this been put as part of the IPSC defence to the Minister.

Sparks

All remaining stages of the Bill are being taken in the Seanad today, which probably means it'll be sent to the Dail for the final vote tomorrow.

Grizzly 45

TJ,
Think of this in a US context.Not the rest of the World.The US hasnt got any problems with defensive ,tactical or other than sport shooting disiplines.The tactical aspect of shooting is also acceptable in more enlightned EU countries as well under their firearms and self defence laws.So it was logical that that aspect could be practised in those EU countries with the US trappings and techniques.We in Ireland never wanted that disipline,due to ur laws on ownership and self defence.
Also the US has the largest contingent of practical shooters than anyone else,and the World HQ for the sport is based there.As a matter of fact it is THEY who gave us [rest of the world]the derogation to use the "turtleback" target or airsoft in countries where real firearms were going to be a problem.

Sparks,
Anything that could be done as a last ditch emailing,phoning or faxing to TD etc on this one?

.270 remington

its live in seanad at the moment

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anything that could be done as a last ditch emailing,phoning or faxing to TD etc on this one?

Áras an Uachtaráin,
Phoenix Park,
Dublin 8

Tel +353 1 617 1000
Fax +353 1 617 1001
Lo Call 1890 430 430
Webmaster webmaster@president.ie

Rosahane

...referendum on October 2nd.

Well if FF want to F*** around with my hobbies I'm quite prepared to pay them back in kind;)

Sparks

The transcripts from today's seanad session are up here.

Our man in Havana

BornToKill wrote: »

Áras an Uachtaráin,
Phoenix Park,
Dublin 8

Tel +353 1 617 1000
Fax +353 1 617 1001
Lo Call 1890 430 430
Webmaster webmaster@president.ie

I don't think She can be influenced.

However She may order an article 26 enquiry. That will stall the bill for a while.

Sparks

Bond-007 wrote: »

However She may order an article 26 enquiry. That will stall the bill for a while.

She may... but she doesn't have a track record of doing so, unlike her predecessor.

Our man in Havana

Sparks wrote: »

She may... but she doesn't have a track record of doing so, unlike her predecessor.

Indeed, which is an awful shame.

bigred

Bond-007 wrote: »

Indeed, which is an awful shame.

So, when does el presidente put her signature to the end of this godforsaken chapter of Irish shooting history??

Sparks

Not sure bigred. It still has to go back through the Dail for the final vote, but that's a formality at this stage.

.270 remington

bigred wrote: »

So, when does el presidente put her signature to the end of this godforsaken chapter of Irish shooting history??

the president has to sign bill between the fifth day to the seventh day of the
month

.270 remington

i wonder when we will get our licence extension if at all ???

Our man in Havana

.270 remington wrote:

the president has to sign bill between the fifth day to the seventh day of the
month

No.

Article 25.2

2. 1° Save as otherwise provided by this Constitution, every Bill so presented to the President for his signature and for promulgation by him as a law shall be signed by the President not earlier than the fifth and not later than the seventh day after the date on which the Bill shall have been presented to him.
2° At the request of the Government, with the prior concurrence of Seanad Éireann, the President may sign any Bill the subject of such request on a date which is earlier than the fifth day after such date as aforesaid.

Dvs

the President not earlier than the fifth and not later than the seventh day after the date on which the Bill shall have been presented to him.

At the request of the Government, with the prior concurrence of Seanad Éireann, the President may sign any Bill the subject of such request on a date which is earlier than the fifth day after such date as aforesaid.

Dvs.

Snap!

.270 remington

Dvs wrote: »

the President not earlier than the fifth and not later than the seventh day after the date on which the Bill shall have been presented to him.

At the request of the Government, with the prior concurrence of Seanad Éireann, the President may sign any Bill the subject of such request on a date which is earlier than the fifth day after such date as aforesaid.

Dvs.

Snap!

government has not looked for an earlier date ( 16:50 today)

snap back ( quote )

Dvs

It will still be after the fifth and before the seventh day after which the bill is presented to the President.

so when it is voted on in the dail it will be sent to the President,
six days later it will be signed unless it is sent to the Supreme Court.

Dvs.

Snap was to bond 007, we posted the same thing at 22.14

.270 remington

Dvs wrote: »

It will still be after the fifth and before the seventh day after which the bill is presented to the President.

so when it is voted on in the dail it will be sent to the President,
six days later it will be signed unless it is sent to the Supreme Court.

Dvs.

Snap was to bond 007, we posted the same thing at 22.14

sorry about that dvs
mad as hell with them shower of w*** pots bye bye to our sport

Our man in Havana

Was the billed passed by the Dail yet?

Sparks

Yes
No vote needed as no amendments made in the Seanad.

Terrier

When did we get to see it?

daveob007

I was out of the country for a few days and judging by what i have read in the last few posts it looks like we are done for.
when does this thing finally become law??? because it looks like it is already.
are there any changes made to the original bill or is it exactly the way ahern wants it???

sickened

Rosahane

daveob007 wrote: »

I was out of the country for a few days and judging by what i have read in the last few posts it looks like we are done for.
when does this thing finally become law??? because it looks like it is already.
are there any changes made to the original bill or is it exactly the way ahern wants it???

sickened

Unfortunately exactly as he wants it:mad:

Despite mounting opposition including from his own party, total lack of rationale in his ever changing arguments and reasoning, the bill was pushed through under the whip:(

We seem to be heading towards Dev's and now Ayatollah Aherne's dream of a dictatorship with all firearms and knives conficated, criminal conviction and imprisonment on the word of one person and even jail time for blasphemy - which probably means questioning Aherne's divinity:eek:

gofaster_s13

Is it known yet how this bill will affect the ordinary rifle(.223) and shotgun owner ie security and storage etc.