Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

daveob007

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Is it known yet how this bill will affect the ordinary rifle(.223) and shotgun owner ie security and storage etc.

i presume it will stay the same as it was ie restricted and not restricted.
this bill governs handguns mainly and thats where we might see tighter security requirments.
BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.
after the dail summer reccess Ahern might start on everything else.
this bill will give him more power to restrict or ban anything he likes.
SO BEWARE

daveob007

I went to my local garda station last week to hand in my guns for secure storage and was told that the gardai don't take them in anymore.
I was just lucky that i met my fo and he took them but said in future they would have to be given to a dealer to mind them.
Living in limerick means that there are no dealers who have restricted licences near me and that would mean that they could not store a handgun.
so what the hell do you do in those circumstances???
if you leave them at home and they get stolen you will never get a licence again.
So much for the gardai wanting people to be safe and secure about guns.

Terrier

all done and dusted now

Dail passes Criminal Justice Bill by 118-23 vote

The Dail has passed the controversial new Criminal Justice Amendment Bill by 118 votes to 23.
The legislation is aimed at tackling gangland crime, but civil rights groups have raised serious concerns about some of the measures it contains.
These include non-jury trials for suspected gang members where the opinion of any serving or former garda can be used as "expert" evidence.
The Government has forced the bill through the Dail despite widespread calls for further debate.

It wasn't me!

Terrier wrote: »

all done and dusted now

That's the wrong bill you're highlighting there. It's also a dirty shambles, but it has no implications here.

rowa

It wasn't me! wrote: »

That's the wrong bill you're highlighting there. It's also a dirty shambles, but it has no implications here.

that bill is a mess to but it has taken the media spotlight of the misc provisions bill which affects us , according to what i have seen and heard on the radio , papers and tv that bill is going to be in trouble in the supreme court sooner or later ,
to convict someone on the evidence of a garda's say so is dangerous (remember donegal) and another indication of the mindset of ahern , a little dictator , people like the family of donna cleary have been cynically exploited to get this bill through , does anyone seriously think that there will be an end to organised crime in limerick and dublin , these people earn millions from there activities and the glock and pipebomb are only tools to assist them .

meathshooter

Emails I have spent the last couple of months sending emails to all of the sitting TD in the dail especially Fianna fail TDs to try and change there minds about the handgun ban and all I have got of them(about 4 Fianna Fail TDs out of all of Fianna Fail) is we have noted your email and will pass it on to minister Ahern for direct reply as of today I still haven't received a reply from minister Ahern.Most of the Fianna Gael(apart from Deasy) and Labour replied promptly to my emails.Has anyone got a reply? or did you feel they where falling on deaf ears I will look forward to the next elections with a passion. shame on Fianna Fail and minister Ahern they wont be getting my family's and friends vote again Ive a big family and friends payback time now

Our man in Havana

Lisbon 2 won't be a shoe in.

Grizzly 45

I will look forward to the next elections with a passion. shame on Fianna Fail and minister Ahern they wont be getting my family's and friends vote again Ive a big family and friends payback time now

[/QUOTE]
Why bother waiting that long ?Lisbon 2 is around the corner...VOTE NO !!
Dont belive NOTHING this lot say anymore they are lying thru their teeth.The sooner they are gonefrom power by any means the better.:mad:

meathshooter

[/quote]
Why bother waiting that long ?Lisbon 2 is around the corner...VOTE NO !!
Don't believe NOTHING this lot say anymore they are lying Thur their teeth.The sooner they are gone from power by any means the better.


they want us to vote yes to be treated equal in Europe and the now ban us from having handguns and imports which every other EU state can do wheres the equality in that MR Ahern you want us to vote yes start treating us like equal

Grizzly 45

Even if they had left us the same as in the UK with the" freaks" [ultra long barreled handguns] or with .22 pistols so the various sports could have continued ,it wouldnt have been so bad.At least folks could have practised with .22 copies of their main big cal stuff for abroad matches.
But this is even WORSE than the UK!
As MS said,start treating us like European citizens or dont expect a yes vote on Lisbon from the gun owning community.Simple as!:mad:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But this is even WORSE than the UK!

We still have bullseye shooting, which the UK doesn't; and IPSC could still be done via airsoft as it is in the UK; but the personal imports issue is going to crucify us once you get outside the immediate short term

Grizzly 45

ASFIK Bullseye can be done with BP modern revolver conversions,or single shot BP pistols?
IPSC with either airsoft or long barrel pistol??
Personal imports...get ready for high and EU court ruuummmmbbllleeesss on this one folks!

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ASFIK Bullseye can be done with BP modern revolver conversions,or single shot BP pistols?

I didn't actually mean bullseye as in NRA Bullseye, I just meant shooting at round paper targets; but yes, all of those in the UK. Here we can use .22 pistols and maybe fullbores (maybe, it was sounding like that'd be allowed at the end there).

IPSC with either airsoft or long barrel pistol??

Don't know for sure. I know UKPSA uses airsoft replicas, but it's not considered even close to ideal (and I'm not suggesting it's a good thing, I'm just saying that it's an option - IPSC is only banned with firearms, not airsoft replicas).

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Personal imports...get ready for high and EU court ruuummmmbbllleeesss on this one folks!

Only if we have to. Remember, it's law - but it's not yet commenced, and until it is, the problem can still go away quietly.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Even if they had left us the same as in the UK with the" freaks" [ultra long barreled handguns] or with .22 pistols so the various sports could have continued ,it wouldnt have been so bad.At least folks could have practised with .22 copies of their main big cal stuff for abroad matches.
But this is even WORSE than the UK!
As MS said,start treating us like European citizens or dont expect a yes vote on Lisbon from the gun owning community.Simple as!:mad:

The 'freaks' are not pistols under our law; the short firearm (pistol) is defined as anything less than 60cm in overall length and with a barrel of less than 30cm in length.

BornToKill

Bond-007 wrote: »

Lisbon 2 won't be a shoe in.

As long as there isn't more than 64 votes in it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055584896

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

IPSC with either airsoft or long barrel pistol??

No. It's explicitly banned in primary legislation. No practical or dynamic shooting with anything over 16 joules. That would include long barrel pistols but not airsoft practical.

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

As long as there isn't more than 64 votes in it.

69, but somehow I don't think they're running Lisbon 2 as a poll on boards.ie

Grizzly 45

BTK,Hello! I was talking about the UK,:)where they can use airsoft or the freak pistols.
Hmm,so overall length of 60 cms...PDW shooting anyone??:D

No6

Sparks wrote: »

Only if we have to. Remember, it's law - but it's not yet commenced, and until it is, the problem can still go away quietly.

So do you mean I could order a gun abroad today and commence the paperwork to import it and it would be ok as the law hasn't commenced yet?

rowa

No6 wrote: »

So do you mean I could order a gun abroad today and commence the paperwork to import it and it would be ok as the law hasn't commenced yet?

i don't think you'd find the guards willing to sign off on the article 7 importation form , they have a habit of starting to use laws before they are actually implimented.

what is the situation with bringing in firearms that you might have owned for years though ? i know a german who recently brought in a shotgun that was his fathers , how would that work now ?

BornToKill

Sparks wrote: »

69, but somehow I don't think they're running Lisbon 2 as a poll on boards.ie

You need to deduct the votes for parties comprising or supporting the government.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

i don't think you'd find the guards willing to sign off on the article 7 importation form , they have a habit of starting to use laws before they are actually implimented?

The gardai don't have the option to refuse the article 7, it's an entitlement of a licence-holder under EU law.

However, the thing the Act bans is the importation, not the ordering - which means that if you do order now, it's a race between the post and the law. I wouldn't recommend it, especially as you still need the licence anyway, so you'd have to bet that the Act wouldn't be commenced before the licence was granted and the firearm posted... which isn't hugely likely.

rrpc

No6 wrote: »

So do you mean I could order a gun abroad today and commence the paperwork to import it and it would be ok as the law hasn't commenced yet?

You will still need an import permit from the Department of Justice.

rowa wrote:

what is the situation with bringing in firearms that you might have owned for years though ? i know a german who recently brought in a shotgun that was his fathers , how would that work now ?

There's no issue with regard to bringing in your own property. It's the same as if you went abroad to shoot and then came back with your firearm.

You will have documentation to prove that this is the case.

BornToKill

No6 wrote: »

So do you mean I could order a gun abroad today and commence the paperwork to import it and it would be ok as the law hasn't commenced yet?

Yes, you probably could. Less of a chance of success if the gun in question is a handgun though.

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

You need to deduct the votes for parties comprising or supporting the government.

True that.
Mind you, in the real world, you've got the disgruntled (which we're lumped in with, but along with farmers, construction workers, anyone who's lost their job or life savings recently, or anyone who's listened to Ned O'Keefe of late) as well as the supporters of the opposition.
Frankly, despite the scaremongering that says that a Yes on Lisbon is needed to safeguard the economy, I don't think they've got it sewn up the way they think the departure of Libertas from the stage says they do. The only polls I've seen of late put both sides evenly split, with 30% undecideds still to play for - not that those polls are hugely informative, mind you.

CJhaughey

rrpc wrote: »

You will still need an import permit from the Department of Justice.


There's no issue with regard to bringing in your own property. It's the same as if you went abroad to shoot and then came back with your firearm.

You will have documentation to prove that this is the case.

Ehh I beg to differ, well for the UK anyway.
I have had a .243 licensed to me for a few years and the gunshop will not be able to clear it from their books without it being sent via courier.
OK if you travel over with the gun, but you will find that you will not be able to bring it back in person, if you are picking it up for the first time over in the UK.
Not sure about NI, but would imagine it could be similar.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

There's no issue with regard to bringing in your own property. It's the same as if you went abroad to shoot and then came back with your firearm.

Under which section of the Act?
I keep looking at what Section 17 of the Act is about to become, and I still think that it's going to ban bringing any firearm in, under any circumstances, unless a firearms dealer has been granted an importation order for it by the DoJ.

Section 17 wrote:

17.(1) Without prejudice to the provisions of the Firearms (Firearms Certificates for Non-Residents) Act 2000, no person, other than a registered firearm dealer, shall import into the State any firearm, ammunition, or prohibited weapon.

(2) A continuing licence to import firearms or ammunition may on application in the prescribed manner be granted by the Minister if he or she thinks fit so to do to any registered firearms dealer, and every such continuing licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into the State of firearms and ammunition generally or of any specified class or classes of fire- arms and ammunition through the port, by the registered dealer, during the period and subject to the conditions named in such licence.

(3) An occasional licence to import into the State a firearm or prohibited weapon, with or without ammunition therefor, may, on application in the prescribed manner, be granted by the Minister if he or she thinks fit so to do to any registered firearms dealer and every such occasional licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into the State of the firearm and the quantity of ammunition (if any) specified in such licence through the port, by the registered firearms dealer, within the time and subject to the conditions named in such licence.

(4) Notwithstanding subsections (1) to (3) of this section, a licence for importing a firearm, ammunition or prohibited weapon may not be granted unless

(a) the applicant has a good reason for importing it,
(b) granting the licence would not prejudice public safety or security, and
(c) if the application relates to a restricted firearm or restricted ammunition, the applicant possesses an authorisation under section 10 of this Act.

(5) An applicant for a licence under this section shall supply in writing any further information that the Minister may require in the performance of his or her functions under this section.

(6) The reason for refusing an application for a licence under this section or for its renewal shall be communicated in writing to the applicant.

(7) Every continuing licence granted by the Minister under this section may be varied or revoked by the Minister at any time before its expiration. The reason for varying or revoking the licence shall be communicated in writing to the licensee or former licensee.

(8) If any person imports into the State a firearm or prohibited weapon or any ammunition without or otherwise than in accordance with a licence under this section authorising such importation or, in the case of ammunition, in quantities in excess of those so authorised, or fails to comply with any condition named in a licence granted to him or her under this section, he or she shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.

(9) The possession of a licence granted under this section shall not relieve any person from the obligation to obtain or hold any certificate, permit, or authority required by any other provision of this Act.

(10) This section shall not apply to the importation into the State of any firearms, ammunition or prohibited weapon which is so imported under the authority of the Minister for Defence for the use of the Defence Forces of the State or under the authority of the Minister for the use of any lawful police force in the State.

BTW, it gets funnier - section 1 there has no provision in it for licences, as the original section 1 did. It's just a straight ban. I'm not sure if you can issue a licence to permit a prohibited activity like that, that's why the original section 1 mentioned them off the bat:

Original section 1 wrote:

No person shall import into Saorstát Eireann any firearm, ammunition, or prohibited weapon unless such import is authorised by a continuing licence granted under this section and in force at the time, or by an occasional licence granted under this section and relating to the specific firearm, ammunition or prohibited weapon so imported.

(That's not to say that RFDs couldn't import, just that I don't see the provision for licencing it in section 1 - so it's arguable in theory that any RFD could import something without an import licence without breaking the law, because section 1 says in black and white that they're allowed import stuff and places no limitation like licencing on that permission).

And even the Europass SI doesn't let you back in the country with your firearm - it specifically lets you go to another Member State, as does Section 16 of the Act; but it says nothing about coming back.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

You will still need an import permit from the Department of Justice.

I'm not sure about "still" - whether you need an import permit or not at the moment under the current law isn't a simple yes or no question, it depends on what you're bringing in, how you're bringing it in, and from where.

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

I keep looking at what Section 17 of the Act is about to become, and I still think that it's going to ban bringing any firearm in, under any circumstances, unless a firearms dealer has been granted an importation order for it by the DoJ.

In a bit more detail, the curious case of Article 38.