Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Bananaman

Sikamick: We all know who they are and where they carried out practices that were way beyond what the IPSC people would have agreed with.

No we do not - please elaborate - otherwise it is just more 'I heard from a fella down the local'

I shot IPSC everywhere in Ireland that it was shot and I will say to anyone who asks that this is rubbish. Unless you can cite a range and an activity you are talking through your hole.

If people were doing something else and when they got caught they said they were doing IPSC then that is something completely different and has no bearing on practical shooting. They could just as easily have said they werre doing Olympic shooting as it would be equally true.
Even that is a load of horlick unless someone states the name of a range on which it occurred.

B'Man

Grizzly 45

Dont waste your time on this Bman!
Everyone "knows" who,what,and where of this supposedly illegal carry on in practical,but no one wants to step up to the plate and bat...You see we are quite good at this nowadays in the ROI...we are disposing with all this bothersomeness of evidence,the most scantiest will do.Facts,no need rumour and hersay is fine,proof,unnecessary a suspicion will do these days.
And thats just in the more important law of the land,not just about a type of shooting comperition!!!
So dont be in the least bit surprised that we got this kind of a deal.We prefer to make people guilty by suspicion rather than hard facts.

Now,when we have finished the usual traditional pastime of the Irish in defeat of blaming each other for collective cockups,and who screwed up more than whom.Is there anybody going to consider continuing practical here with airsoft,or shall we all migrate up to the North??

guns4fun

I have read pages of this stuff about practical and the wrongdoers who did silly things and brought the whole practical thing into the spotlight.
You all know who they are etc,, NO WE DON'T actually.
Would someone please please grow a pair and say who,what,when and where all these things were done and by who.
Sick of the guessing game.

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Dont waste your time on this Bman!
Everyone "knows" who,what,and where of this supposedly illegal carry on in practical,but no one wants to step up to the plate and bat...You see we are quite good at this nowadays in the ROI...we are disposing with all this bothersomeness of evidence,the most scantiest will do.Facts,no need rumour and hersay is fine,proof,unnecessary a suspicion will do these days.
And thats just in the more important law of the land,not just about a type of shooting comperition!!!
So dont be in the least bit surprised that we got this kind of a deal.We prefer to make people guilty by suspicion rather than hard facts.

Now,when we have finished the usual traditional pastime of the Irish in defeat of blaming each other for collective cockups,and who screwed up more than whom.Is there anybody going to consider continuing practical here with airsoft,or shall we all migrate up to the North??

http://www.peverilrifleclub.com/index.htm

tonysopprano

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

As to what Des Croften does in his office I would not know, but I do Know that his input on behalf of shooting sports and Country pursuits in Ireland is on questionable.

Des Croften and Frank Brophy, Lest we forget get, were the people who got the first pistol back.

Also please stop pointing the finger of blame at the wrong people re Practical
Pistol Ban and I lay no blame with the official IPSC people but at a small few greedy people that have more interest in the Euro than the sport.

We all know who they are and where they carried out practices that were way beyond what the IPSC people would have agreed with.

My point of view only.

Sikamick

As to reasons why some people stabbed pistol owners (especially practial shooters) consider this fairytale.

If people were to read the Barr report (page 578 section viii) below.




Now after reading this, if an organisation or person, with Euro signs in their eyes and a captive audience, saw that another organisation had a better course to offer in the skills mentioned, and saw that their monopoly was challanged, would they not work to the creed of "All's fair in love and war".



Also if people want to know what the new application form look like (or probably looks like) see appendix 8 of the Barr Report

rowa

that attachment doesn't appear to be working tonysopprano.

tonysopprano

Try now

Sparks

Tony, your attachment didn't work. The Barr Report is here for those looking for it.

I somehow doubt, however, that any private group looking to set up as the "gateway to shooting" body would be entertained like that, either by most shooters, or by the courts (whether an unincorporated association or an incorporated one, that'd be like trusting the fox to watch the henhouse and no Minister would ever risk touching the idea with a barge pole because both the gutter press and the shooting community would lynch him for it).

(That's not to say I think that there aren't a few who are salivating at the thought, in fact I could probably name a few who are, but that wouldn't do much good as they'll never succeed and so why waste the energy? Besides, sooner or later, everything ends up on the public record, so if you're really interested enough, read Parlimentary Questions, Dail and Seanad transcripts and fund FOI requests...)

tonysopprano

The last 3 lines of the excerpt says it all for me,

"Mr. Crofton has made it clear in evidence that his body (AND ONLY HIS BODY WITH NO MENTION OF ANY OTHER ORIGANISATIONS) is ready and willing to play its part and that it has the resources and expertise to provide he requisite structure"

Between parenthisis is my opinion.

In the article it says that NARGC has 17 european qualified instructors. In its short life(late 2005 to late 2008), IPSA had at least 5 WORLD QUALIFIED OFFICIALS (granted only recognised in 92 countries worldwide but let any NARGC official try to use his card in Guatemala or Surinam or Papua New Guinea and see where it got him) .

See the pattern. IPSA Licence was €100 and regognised worldwide, NARGC will be €???? and only recoignised in Ireland and compulsory.

<snip>

rowa

tonysopprano wrote: »

The last 3 lines of the excerpt says it all for me,

"Mr. Crofton has made it clear in evidence that his body (AND ONLY HIS BODY WITH NO MENTION OF ANY OTHER ORIGANISATIONS) is ready and willing to play its part and that it has the resources and expertise to provide he requisite structure"

Between parenthisis is my opinion.

In the article it says that NARGC has 17 european qualified instructors. In its short life(late 2005 to late 2008), IPSA had at least 5 WORLD QUALIFIED OFFICIALS (granted only recognised in 92 countries worldwide but let any NARGC official try to use his card in Guatemala or Surinam or Papua New Guinea and see where it got him) .

See the pattern. IPSA Licence was €100 and regognised worldwide, NARGC will be €???? and only recoignised in Ireland and compulsory.

<snip>

i think this is the reason mr.crofton seen fit to write his article in the digest , sooner or later some minister for justice is going to require a mandatory safety course of some type and he stuck the nargc front row centre to be the ones to supply it , arselicking ahern did this no harm in the least .

Clash

Jeez lads, do youse not like your houses or something? :eek:

You're cruising for a day on the Northside with stuff like that. And I'm talking about just over the liffey in that big house with the woman with the scales outside.

Grizzly 45

Libellous comments notwithstanding...There is possibly alot of truth in the statements.
Look at it like this.Apart from NARGC,which other organisations could/would /did challange the Govt in the courts for handguns and rifles???
Govt sees it is dealing with NARGC/Des on almost every turn and getting its ass kicked on bad law and decisions.NARGC is at Barr tribunal,giving evidence,and recommendations,is on FCP,is the largest gunowner organisation in Ireland.Des is on every TV ,and radio or paper on firearms related issues.
Where are all the other shooting organisations input into this in this time in Ireland???
Or who else will the Govt talk to logically??
If NARGC is the only voice being heard and only their suggestions,are we then surprised the Gov is going to lean that way?
<snip>

tonysopprano

Clash wrote: »

Jeez lads, do youse not like your houses or something? :eek:

You're cruising for a day on the Northside with stuff like that. And I'm talking about just over the liffey in that big house with the woman with the scales outside.

Nothing that i said except "(AND ONLY HIS BODY WITH NO MENTION OF ANY OTHER ORIGANISATIONS) and (granted only recognised in 92 countries worldwide but let any NARGC official try to use his card in Guatemala or Surinam or Papua New Guinea and see where it got him) is not in the public domain. The excerpts between parenthisis is qualified by my admission that this is my opinion.

As long as my statements are true and not blasphemous (after today), I reckon that I am okay.

If anyone else would like to read the Barr report, a certain Mr. Crofton, is quoted very many times and is made to look like the utmost authorithy on firearms in Ireland<snip>

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

As long as my statements are true and not blasphemous (after today), I reckon that I am okay.

Sure. You just have to pay ten to thirty grand to get in the door of the courtroom to present your defence.
And so do we, as legally we're the publishers.
So if you really want to go down this road, go to www.wordpress.com or www.blogger.com and get a free blog and post it there. (Why do you think I have irishshootingpolitics.wordpress.com?)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Libellous comments notwithstanding...There is possibly alot of truth in the statements.

/facepalm
Grizzly, once in a while would you please read what you write?

Or who else will the Govt talk to logically?

That'd be the FCP. And the NARGC is not the only voice being heard at the top level Grizzly. Des is good at PR, that's his job. Doesn't mean he's the only one being heard.
And there is no way a non-governmental organisation, be it incorporated or otherwise, is going to be given a role where they can veto someone from a government licence without government oversight.

BornToKill

Charter, anyone?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055171178

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

Charter, anyone?

Charter, you, specifically the bit on back-seat modding and reporting posts.

Clash

Bananaman wrote: »

I am sure that the Minister and his 'advisors' spent many late nights findng the likes of this article - or maybe they slept soundly and woke up in the morning to find the tooth fairy had left it on their pillow - which is more likely?

Maybe they just found this stuff in the IPSC constitution:

Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate these elements equally.

Firearm types are not separated, all compete together without handicap. This does not apply to the power of the firearms as power is an element to be recognised and rewarded.

Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical firearms and equipment. Any item of equipment, or modification to equipment, which sacrifices practical functionality for a competitive advantage contravenes the principles of the sport.

Practical competition is conducted using practical targets, which reflect the general size and shape of such objects as the firearm used may reasonably be called upon to hit in their primary intended use.

The challenge presented in practical competition must be realistic. Courses of Fire must follow a practical rationale, and simulate sensible hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used.

Practical competition is diverse. Within the limits of realism, problems are constantly changed, never permitting unrealistic specialisation of either technique or equipment. Courses of Fire may be repeated, but no course may be repeated enough to allow its use as a definitive measure of practical shooting skill.

Practical competition is free-style. In essence, the competitive problem is posed in general and the participant is permitted the freedom to solve it in the manner he considers best within the limitations of the competitive situation as provided.

Sparks

Can we drop the ISSF-vs-IPSC stuff? It's got very little to do with Irish shooting.

Grizzly 45

Grizzly, once in a while would you please read what you write?

Meaning more Des is a gobshte type comments.

That'd be the FCP. And the NARGC is not the only voice being heard at the top level Grizzly. Des is good at PR, that's his job. Doesn't mean he's the only one being heard.

Errr BEFORE the FCP was founded/organised???

And there is no way a non-governmental organisation, be it incorporated or otherwise, is going to be given a role where they can veto someone from a government licence without government oversight.

[/QUOTE]
No,but a Govt can make it a prerequsite that a NGB handles the training and liscense requirements.IDS and Coilte spring to mind.

tonysopprano

Sparks wrote: »

Can we drop the ISSF-vs-IPSC stuff? It's got very little to do with Irish shooting.

Specifically after today, as it was signed into law, banning practical shooting.

After rereading the charter, i still do not find that i am in breach, as per BornToKill( charter = unfounded statements, whether true ou untrue. All statements quoted available on Boards.ie)----except those stated to be my own) Adverts | Friends


****Allegations against named individuals. READ THIS OR GET BANNED TOO*****
I've just banned a user from this forum for making unfounded statements on this site against a named member of the shooting fraternity.

I don't care if its true or not frankly, if any of you feel strongly enough to sling mud at one another

Location: Dublin
Posts: 21,936
Adverts | Friends


****Allegations against named individuals. READ THIS OR GET BANNED TOO*****
I've just banned a user from this forum for making unfounded statements on this site against a named member of the shooting fraternity.

I don't care if its true or not frankly, if any of you feel strongly enough to sling mud at one another

tonysopprano

tonysopprano wrote: »

Specifically after today, as it was signed into law, banning practical shooting.

After rereading the charter, i still do not find that i am in breach, as per BornToKill( charter = unfounded statements, whether true ou untrue. All statements quoted available on Boards.ie)----except those stated to be my own) Adverts | Friends


****Allegations against named individuals. READ THIS OR GET BANNED TOO*****
I've just banned a user from this forum for making unfounded statements on this site against a named member of the shooting fraternity.

I don't care if its true or not frankly, if any of you feel strongly enough to sling mud at one another

Location: Dublin
Posts: 21,936
Adverts | Friends


****Allegations against named individuals. READ THIS OR GET BANNED TOO*****
I've just banned a user from this forum for making unfounded statements on this site against a named member of the shooting fraternity.

I don't care if its true or not frankly, if any of you feel strongly enough to sling mud at one another

Above post is not as I posted it, maybe something happened in the ethernet, but i stand by it's content.

Everything I said is availabe on boards except that which I qualified as my own opinion

daveob007

Jasus lads i'm backing well away from this one!
Not tellin anyone what to do but all this stuff should stop here and now because we are doing ourselves no favours only creating suspision and mistrust which is the last thing we need right now.

tonysopprano

Aledged lists to Justice,
Articles in ISD,
People proclaiming themselves to be expert in disciplines that they know nothing about etc.

To quote daveob007 "creating suspision and mistrust". I wonder why?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Meaning more Des is a gobshte type comments.

No, meaning you contradict yourself in the one sentence sometimes.

Errr BEFORE the FCP was founded/organised???

Yes, before the FCP was founded.

No,but a Govt can make it a prerequsite that a NGB handles the training and liscense requirements.IDS and Coilte spring to mind.

Doesn't work like that. IDS don't have veto over Coillte leases; coillte requires you to do an accredited test. You don't want to do the HCAP with the IDS, you can set up your own HCAP or similar training programme, get it accredited by Coillte and away you go.

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

After rereading the charter, i still do not find that i am in breach

That's nice, but your opinion doesn't count.

And I'm locking this thread for the rest of the night so folks can go soak their heads and calm down some.

IRLConor

Unlocked.

Darr

A shame to see the way this thread has gone ..
I would have to agree (probably with the majority of people here) that it’s about time to drop the association A V association B arguments (yes all a shame but it did any shooter in Ireland feck all good so if you don’t like it don’t join A or set up your own B ) really like this is the CJB 2009 bill , not I (perceive to have or have not) got shafted by A or B thread .


so back on thread if that’s ok with ye , I spoke with my FO last week and he said that the new forms should here in the next 2 weeks and that he doesn’t see big delays in processing renewals as they have brought more people on board .. now he did say that NEW applications in the next 4 months may take a good while longer , anyone else heard of anything like this as I wanted to put in a renewal and a new license app at the same time.

In relation to the ammo amounts he said you would want a very good reason for having over 1000 rounds e.g. proof you’re in competitions , etc etc .

this was his own opinion as he is kinda in the same boat as us and this is only what he heard ( I believe they are training next week on the new process)


Darr

daveob007

It just looks bad seeing all this arguing and disagreement being places in the public forum.
We are not the only people who look at these threads IE. doj/media/gardai etc.
there is a private message service on boards so it might be a good idea for the 4 or 5 people who are in disagreement to use this to get things off their chests, you can send a private msg to 5 people at a time.
I am not judging or condemming anyone here,just want to see thing done in a positive and calm manner.

Vegeta

Here here dave

Lads keep it on topic or there will be deletions and bans.

I'm sick of this political bullsh1t spilling over into these threads.

Keep it on topic

Darr

And here is the NEWS

Ahern signs new gun control act into law

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eykfsnsnauid/rss2/


I feel safer already...(sarcasim folks)