Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

bunny shooter

Yes, a public statement from the FCP would be nice

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Anyone have a link to the restricted list?

Try this...

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Yes, a public statement from the FCP would be nice

I'd settle for public statements from the NGBs (since the FCP is chaired by the DoJ and so can't really come out and condemn the Minister's fun and games).

It wasn't me!

bunny shooter wrote: »

Yes, a public statement from the FCP would be nice

It's been said before, but since the FCP are chaired by the DoJ, they don't make public statements. Your representatives on the FCP should be doing so, so contact them and ask why they aren't.

Dr_Teeth

Problems with the Bill so far (imo):

1. No further center-fire pistol licences. This is uncalled for and will destroy many legitimate target sports like ISSF center-fire, PPC1500, IPSC etc. as well as other legitimate uses such as humane dispatch.

2. No personal importing. This is a pointless change that does nothing except raise prices and increase paperwork. If you have a licence and article 7 for a firearm you should be able to bring it into the country. Ditto with ammunition.

3. References made to "Olympic" short firearms in the SI. Who knows whether or not a pistol was "designed" for the Olympics.. can we look inside the head of the guy who originally designed the pistol? They should not be making reference to the Olympics or the ISSF or any other body. They should focus on characteristics for the firearm only.

What is or isn't an Olympic target shooting event changes over time based on popularity, space/time constraints, cost of building the facilities etc. This isn't something to base legislation on. Moreover, Olympic events aren't gender neutral. 50m Free Pistol is a men-only event in both the Olympics and in ISSF competitions. If a woman applied for a licence for a free pistol, could they be refused because they couldn't shoot it in competition and thus had no legitimate need for it?

The SI should just mention any short firearm of .22LR calibre.

4. In the amendment to section 3A of the Firearms Act (part 27 of the firearm section of this bill) it looks like the Minister is saying "I can do whatever the hell I want LOL!" what's the point of this bill if he or the Commissioner can come in later and monkey around to their heart's content?

5. I had hoped they would be improving how licencing was done, like licencing the person for one or more firearms rather than licencing firearms individually. No sign of that.

Sparks

Dr_Teeth wrote: »

What is or isn't an Olympic target shooting event changes over time based on popularity, space/time constraints, cost of building the facilities etc. This isn't something to base legislation on.

Very true. ISSF regulations themselves change a lot more slowly than what's on the olympic programme.

Moreover, Olympic events aren't gender neutral. 50m Free Pistol is a men-only event in both the Olympics and in ISSF competitions. If a woman applied for a licence for a free pistol, could they be refused because they couldn't shoot it in competition and thus had no legitimate need for it?

Interesting idea - wrong match (50m free pistols - long-arm types or not - qualify as rifles because of their barrel length typically being over 30cm, so this doesn't affect them).

The SI should just mention any short firearm of .22LR calibre.

Amen to that. This "designed for" clause is utter dross.

BOBTHESHOOTER

jwshooter wrote: »

should not impact a tourist bring a firearm in for sport only a citizen trying to import a firearm for there purposes

Intresting observation, the fact that an Irish Citizen can be discriminated against!

If one has a reasonable memory this aspect of Irish Firearms Legislation was sucessfully challenged in the High Court in 1998 by the NARGC and resulted in the formation of the first Firearms Review Group, it resulted in new firearms legislation being introduced in 2000!

Another note, the 1993 EU firearms directive as transposed into Irish Law provided for the harmonisation of firearms legislation to facilitate the easy transfer of firearms around the community.

The prohibition on an individual purchasing a firearm in another EU country and being prevented from importing it to Ireland which is another EU country will make another interesting challenge to the new proposed legislation, as is in contravention of the very principal of free trade that the union is built on!

It will be like open season in the courts and one thing for sure yet again it will be the tax payer who pays and the solicitors who make the money, does the minister care, clearly not, it will not be his money squandered in the courts to achieve what end, make Ireland a safer place, no................

daveob007

no sign of the training licence either,my 13 year old cant wait till he is 14 to get his,now it looks like he wont be able to pistol shoot either.
what happens if your pistol becomes too old or worn and needs to be replaced?? does your licence die and stop you from shooting??
i will certainly be writing to my local fg td michael noonan about this one.
he loves to put the boot into the ff party.

just remember that if you are writing to any fg member that our biggest enemy regarding pistols is john deasy of the same party,,but do it anyway.

theres going to be 100s of threads by the end of the week regarding this one.

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

The prohibition on an individual purchasing a firearm in another EU country and being prevented from importing it to Ireland which is another EU country will make another interesting challenge to the new proposed legislation, as is in contravention of the very principal of free trade that the union is built on!

No, it won't. The solicitor you go to will (if they're competent) just point out to you that the EU legislation specifically permits national legislation to be more stringent than the EU legislation on firearms transfer. In other words, requiring an import licence for firearms doesn't bother the EU so long as it's not discriminatory against specific member states - ie. if you need an import licence to import from France and Germany, that's okay, but a licence to import from France but not Germany wouldn't be accepted. They'd also point out to you that firearms dealers have had to have import licences for decades now without challange from the EU.

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

No you won't - ISSF numbers are only given out to people who are shooting internationally for their country, which means that you have to make the Irish Team to get one. That's obviously not going to work, the documented procedure for making it onto the Irish Team is evidence to that.

you might want the check that one out ,

Sparks

Which part JW and why?

jwshooter

just see an the news our government are going to tackle gang land crime head on by taking our firearms and limiting air soft.

murph226

What date do they go by regarding the issueing of a firearms cert?

I applied for the cert for my Sig on the 18/7/08, it was stamped by my Super on the 18/12/08 and was issued to me at my local station on the 28/12/08.

Wouldnt it have been approved by the Super before it went to Phoenix Park?

Am I going to have to turn it in come July?

Will I be able to trade it in up the North?

Half-cocked

daveob007 wrote: »

no sign of the training licence either,my 13 year old cant wait till he is 14 to get his,now it looks like he wont be able to pistol shoot either.

I've a nephew in the same boat so I rang my NGB rep on the FCP to find out why the training license isn't mentioned. He queried the DOJ about it and they confirmed that the training license was provided for under the 2006 Criminal Justice Act which will be enacted when the Misc. Provisions Bill goes through. He wouldn't comment further on the Bill as he hadn't had a chance to read it properly yet. He didn't sound too optimistic about us getting the training license anytime soon though:(

jwshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Which part JW and why?

i have a issf number ,to compete in olympic trap or double trap i have to have one if i want my scores to count to make a world cup.

not sure about the team thing in a home interantional .

Sparks

That's shotgun though jw. The NTSA doesn't do things the same way, we don't bother applying for the issf number until we're sending someone abroad for the first time.

Mind you, if the ISSF number thing became the test, feck it, I can be cynical too - why not just add everyone with a pistol to the Irish Developmental Pistol Squad and apply for ISSF numbers for everyone? :rolleyes:

Sparks

murph226 wrote: »

What date do they go by regarding the issueing of a firearms cert?

The date the super issued it to you.

I applied for the cert for my Sig on the 18/7/08, it was stamped by my Super on the 18/12/08 and was issued to me at my local station on the 28/12/08.
Wouldnt it have been approved by the Super before it went to Phoenix Park?

No.

Am I going to have to turn it in come July?

The way this is written, yes.

Will I be able to trade it in up the North?

Yes, through an RFD who's licenced to trade in restricted firearms (if the bill is enacted as written).

Hivemind187

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. " - Ben Franklin.

Looks like any hopes I had for taking up target-pistol shooting have gone the same way as many a baby seal. Clubbed to death by a small minded minority.

murph226

Thanks Sparks, this is what I've been dreading:(:(:(

It wasn't me!

Given the massive delays and constant alterations and tweaking this bill received, that it turned out like this is more criminal than justice.

bunny shooter

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It's been said before, but since the FCP are chaired by the DoJ, they don't make public statements. Your representatives on the FCP should be doing so, so contact them and ask why they aren't.

Pedantics and at a time like this you'd swear the "blame game" was gonna be starting soon

Statement from Chairman and all members of FCP would be appreciated then

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Pedantics

It's not - the point is that the chair of the FCP is a civil servant who answers to the Minister and isn't allowed to make public statements of his own; so the FCP can't condemn the Minister's mucking about without the Minister's permission.

Sparks

Now the NGBs who sit in the FCP, that's a whole other ball game.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Now the NGBs who sit in the FCP, that's a whole other ball game.

Reckon they are in a nuclear bunker somewhere praying that the fallout won't last for ten years :pac:

rrpc

From the NTSA website:

New Firearms Legislation

The new firearms legislation promised by the Minister for Justice Equality and Law Reform was published today. The 'Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009' is available for download in our documents section, below right.

The committee is at present evaluating its contents and apart from some initial observations that it falls generally in line with what the Minister announced in November 2008, we have no further comments to make until a full analysis has been carried out. We would also like to make clear as we did in 2006 that we strenuously object in the most vehement terms to having our sport regulated under criminal legislation.

ditpaintball

Rovi wrote: »

Can I ask that anyone planning to contact their political representatives do so in a thoughtful and constructive manner?
'Spamming' the entire Dail with a message that boils down to: "You are all cnuts and you can't deny me my rights" will do nothing but turn off the fence-sitters and moderates, and confirm the antis in their belief that we're all nutters and a danger to society.

Target your representations to specific people (your local representatives in all parties (especially if you know them personally), opposition spokespersons on Justice, the members of the Justice Committee, etc), and above all, be constructive.
Give them something to work with: suggest alternatives to the proposed measures, explain (in layman's terms) why you think specific measures in the Bill are incorrect or poorly thought through, etc, etc.

Don't forget to raise your concerns with those lobbying for your vote in the County Council/European elections too.

This is important. We have put up a template that people copy and edit and send to their local td's. Not that it will make any difference....

jwshooter

murph226 wrote: »

Thanks Sparks, this is what I've been dreading:(:(:(

pistols in the north are a dead duck .

murph226

jwshooter wrote: »

pistols in the north are a dead duck .

Why so JW?

rrpc

murph226 wrote: »

Thanks Sparks, this is what I've been dreading:(:(:(

Murph

I wouldn't start dreading things just yet. You applied in July and could reasonably have expected to have had your licence (or a refusal) within three months of that.

I'm not entirely sure that this part of the legislation will hold water in any case. I don't know of any legislation that can in essence declare (for example) someone unmarried because they got married after a certain date.

To be brutally honest, I actually fail to see the relevance of this piece of legislation anyway. There can hardly have been hundreds of licences issued in the last six months especially considering the 'de facto' ban that was in place.

meathshooter

was in the process of trading in a 9mm pistol up north for another 9mm where does this leave me now,I have the pistol licence well befor 19/11/08 just waiting for it to come from germany to the north should be there next week,the FO had no prob with it I wonder will that be changed now????:mad: