Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

fat-tony wrote: »

why have a whole "restricted firearms dealer" system in place, plus a facility for a dealer to apply for an "occasional" import licence specified elsewhere in the legislation?

Because "restricted" doesn't mean pistol, it also means certain rifles and shotguns?
Also, there will be a need if this is passed as is, for folks to be able to legally sell/dispose of their pistols, so the restricted RFDs would need to exist.

It's not about good, well-thought out regulation, it's just politics....

And on that, we are in 100% agreement. And I suspect "we" there isn't just the two of us!

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Slightly detailed look at the Bill.

_________________________________________________________________
There’s also the note saying that putting on display any prohibited firearm will be an offence. In other words, if you have a ‘bullet board’ on your wall as a decoration you inherited from some forgotten uncle ten years ago, you might in the worst case wind up facing a €5,000 euro fine or a year in jail. Wonderful.

_________________________________________________________________

Sparks does this mean that the old Lady that has the first world war artillery shell standing in her hall as an umbrella stand could end up with a fine or a year in jail, unjust or what.

Sikamick

Sparks

If it's an umbrella stand it's open at the top, right?
In which case, it's a component part of the ammunition and you'd really have to push on that one (I know someone was done for exactly that a while ago, but it was thrown out of court by the judge, presumably for being silly and wasting the court's time).

I'm more thinking there of things like this:

chem

Thats a huge chunk of collecting wiped out :mad:

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

If it's an umbrella stand it's open at the top, right?
In which case, it's a component part of the ammunition and you'd really have to push on that one (I know someone was done for exactly that a while ago, but it was thrown out of court by the judge, presumably for being silly and wasting the court's time).

I'm more thinking there of things like this:

I think taking someone to court for having one of those would be viewed as being equally silly by the courts.

So far we've had no declaration of what's prohibited yet, so lets not be alarmist and have people throwing their bullet boards in the skip.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

I think taking someone to court for having one of those would be viewed as being equally silly by the courts.

It certainly would be today. And you're right, there's no problem until and unless the Minister prohibits something.

Of course, if you wait until then, it's like saying that there's no actual problem until the speeding truck actually hits you. Me, I'd rather step out of the way a while before that.

Sikamick

Quote : (There’s also the note saying that putting on display any prohibited firearm will be an offence. In other words, if you have a ‘bullet board’ on your wall as a decoration you inherited from some forgotten uncle ten years ago, you might in the worst case wind up facing a €5,000 euro fine or a year in jail.Wonderful.)
_________________________________________________________________
PROHIBITED FIREARM OR COMPONENT PART?

This has very serious connotations for people that are Non live firing Firearms Holders, collectors, people that have an interest in history.

The re-enactor, collector or the old Lady or Gent that have in their possession an item that is a family heirloom which could be anything from a rifle shell to an artillery shell to a deactivated firearm belonging to their Grandfather. Or and the schoolboy who attends the militaria-fair that is policed by Gardai who happened to notice prohibited items been purchased. How does the law stand here,will we have to have an amnesty to wheelbarrow prohibited items such as deactivate tanks, armored cars with deactivated .50cal mounted machine gun and such likes to the Doj offices.

All of the above mentioned are law abiding citizens, but will be because of this bill,if passed deemed to be under the new LAW(CRIMINALS).

I appeal to the Minister and to the people who put this bill together to
re -assess it, the above is just one scenario where law-abiding citizens could end up in court through no fault of their own.
________________________________________________________________

RESRTICTED LIST?

This is a joke, all firearms are restricted until you get a license for one, this is a section of the Act that makes no sense at all. If one applies for a particular firearm and have good reason to have/use and then are licensed to have it by the powers that be, that is all that the law should require.

I seriously wonder have the powers that be consulted with the professional specialist in the Garda Ballistic Section on the amendments to the Firearms Act, they could have given guidance and advice or was it left to the Bureaucratic Civil Servant! who put*this together.

It wouldn’t be the first time that the Government have listened to Civil Servant advice in Government departments and went on to make a total cock up of things.

Again I say we are seriously in need of leadership in our sport to defend our rights and I don't mean new organisations, we have plenty at the moment but they need to stop the in fighting and come together to fight these over the top amendments.

One wonders did the DOJ reps even listen to the sporting reps on the FCP?


Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

This has very serious connotations for people that are Non live firing Firearms Holders, collectors, people that have an interest in history.*

The re-enactor, collector or the old Lady or Gent that have in their possession an item that is a family heirloom which could be anything from a rifle shell to an artillery shell to a deactivated firearm belonging to their Grandfather. Or and the schoolboy who*attends*the**militaria-fair that is policed by Gardai who happened to notice prohibited items *been purchased. How does the law stand here,will we have*to have an amnesty to wheelbarrow prohibited items such as*deactivate tanks, armored cars with deactivated .50cal mounted machine gun and*such likes*to the Doj offices.**

What's with all the hysteria? Have you all lost control of your critical faculties?

De-acts are not firearms under the act. They have been de-activated. In the words of John Cleese, 'they are ex-firearms, they have ceased to be...'

RESRTICTED LIST?*

This is a joke, all firearms are restricted until you get a license for one, this is a section of the Act that makes no sense at all. If one applies for a particular firearm and have good reason to have/use and then are licensed to have it by the powers that be, that is all that the law should require.*
**
I seriously wonder have the powers that be consulted with the professional specialist in the Garda Ballistic Section on the amendments to the Firearms Act, they could have given guidance and advice or was it left to the Bureaucratic Civil Servant! who put*this together.*

Mick, restricted firearms have been on the statute books since 2006. Have you only realised this now?

Sikamick

rrpc my opinion only not hysteria, am I entitled to my opinion.

This is my last word on the matter, I will leave it to the people that know it all.

Qoute : Section 35 makes it an offence to carry a replica imitation firearm in a public place (though frankly, the 1990 Act already covered that as it covers any item the arresting officer thinks may be used in any crime). The rest of Section 35 has to do with airsoft and authorisations for airsoft sites and so forth.

replica imitation firearm in a public place deatived at at militaria fair, another grey area that you will be pi**ing into in the cell while that Garda sort it out.

Definitely my last word.


Sikamick

ancienthunter

I think we need to start raising money for solicitors and forget about the organisations. One big pot with money from its shooting members and there friends and friends friends in one big pot. And a public demonstration just to let the public know we are here and are not crimimals. All shooters should be there shotgun rifle airgun bb you know why because they insulted us all, they assocated crimimals with our sport and they never draw that line between us and them, they even went as far to actually implicate us with crimimal activties. It was then someone should have being sued but its not too late.

Sparks

So, one large fund... managed by whom? I can't think of one person that every other person in our sports would trust with that amount of cash. Plus, the moment you start a centralised move like that, every little hitler in the place wants to run it (and we already have a few examples of this sort of idea in motion at the moment).

Also, a solicitor can't help you until it's law, and then they can't really repeal the law, that's the Oireachtas' job.

Public protests don't work, not with this government, we've seen that time and time and time again. If you don't believe me, tell me how much you paid in bin taxes this year?

So what do we do? Well, how about we do the one thing we know works (because we've seen it work before)?

Remember the fees hike? The protest against it? Do that.

Don't wait for a central organisation. Don't wait for your NGB. Don't wait for your club. Right now, get up and go call your local TD and complain about this. Go see him in his clinic. Call him on the phone. Write him a letter. Write him an email. Do the same for the TDs on the Justice Committee. Do the same for the Minister (and if you send an email or letter, call the DoJ to make sure it arrived).

But do NOT wait for someone else to do it for you. Do NOT trust that some central group will be able to make it all go away. The NGBs are only listened to because they represent the grass roots of shooting - if the grass roots are yelling at the Dail not to do this, then the Dail is more likely to listen to the NGBs and this is more likely to get stopped or at least deflected.

Vegeta

Sika and rrpc, you haven't broken any rules but please try and remain civil with one another.

ancienthunter

Why wait till its law. What the minister said last year was wrong where is the proof that we are a problem / short firearms are a problem and should be ilegal what the gardai done should be ilegal where is the edvidence of these stolen firearms. The minister should be convicted of public hysteria and misinformation, Rte and the papers too

Its simple as I've already said the main thing is they made bad our name, associated legal shooting with crime, did not publish edvidence as requested, did not provide good reason, and as public representives wasted time and money not listening to the public or probally to their proper advisers...why cannot they be brought up for that.

By all means ask the policticans too and write letters.
The goverment may not listen or by bothered by a demonstation but it will directly challange there discrimination against shooting and do a lot to represent us well if the theme is discrimination against shooters and letting the real crimimals away with it. The only reason I'd recommend this is that there are hundreds of thousands of shooters here its really not a small amount of people. If a small group of twits in the dail can run the country a hundred thousand can change the future.

Even a hundred thousand is nothing there could be a million after all shooters are only a very small group of pissed off people right now.

Sparks

ancienthunter wrote: »

Why wait till its law.

Because the courts cannot challange a law on any grounds until it is a law. This is not a law yet, it is still a bill. It would have to go through the entire process of Dail and Seanad and Dail again and President and then the Minister commencing it before you could mount a challange - by which point, the truck has already hit you.

Instead, start protesting now to the TDs and try to have it changed or aborted during the Oireachtas stages. If that fails, then look to the courts, but looking to them now is missing a major window to change stuff.

The minister should be convicted of public hysteria and misinformation, Rte and the papers too

Except that (a) that's not a crime, and (b) while libel is a crime, you can't be done for libelling a group as large as "all shooters in Ireland" or even "all pistol shooters in Ireland". Libel law is, simply put, not fair or just.

why cannot they be brought up for that.

Because it's not illegal. And it's not illegal because they draft the rules...

The goverment may not listen or by bothered by a demonstation but it will directly challange there discrimination against shooting and do a lot to represent us well

I can't see it doing either. I can see the government not listening, but instead commenting that the Dail will not be bullied by an armed mob (regardless of what actually happens on such a protest) and I can see the press having a field day. Think about it - we get all 200,000 of us to come out and march to the Dail, and what will the papers say? Will they do an in-depth look at our sport and the injustices we've had dumped on our heads? Or will they say "feck it, deadline is in two hours, recycle last year's guns are bad, m'kay story and make out that this is a threat of a coup in Ireland, it'll sell more papers"?

Look, a protest march does nothing. But 200,000 people all complaining to the TDs got Micheal McDowell to back down on taking money from our pockets - I can't remember much else he ever backed down on. So if it worked once on an ideologue who wouldn't listen to anyone, what will it do to a character whose motivation appears to be trying to not lose votes?

milkerman

My greatest worries with this legislation are as follows -
1. The Ministers power 'in the interest of safety & security' to ban types of firearm on the basis of calibre, type etc and also the same for ammunition. This effectively puts the 'I dont like the look of that' type decision on a firm legal footing.
2. Most legislation specifically provides for an appeal mechanism in the event of an application for a licence or other service being refused. In our case we have no simple or standardised method of appeal if the local gun hating super chooses to refuse a licence. We should not have to resort to the courts on stuff like this. And before anyone says it, not all shooters are members of clubs or represented by the various umbrella groups.
3. Personal imports. As a citizen of the EU, do I not have a right to spend my money where I choose? Subject of course to compliance with local regulation.
4. Stating that certain categories of firearm licences issued after November 2008 will be revoked smacks of retrospective legislation. Constitutionality?

I'm sure I will see more in this as I reread it. This Bill should be a cause of grave concern for all shooters. The pistol men have been properly done over. Some Superintendents would like to see the .223 rifle go the same way, I am sure others would prefer if semi auto or pump action rifles & shotguns were forbidden. All it takes is one accident or incident for a PC minded Minister to exercise his powers to ban what we have all come to take for granted And he would be applauded by the PC media for his 'robust response'.

I wonder what will the procedure be for the existing holders of fullbore pistols when renewal comes along? I think you can expect anything up to and including rectal examinations.

This country makes me despair.

ancienthunter

Don't worry about it I can see this gov out soon enough. I just seem to always think sparks that instead of arguing technicalities go to the root of the problem but as you have mentioned sometimes trying to get a legal point of view is harder but not impossible. Maybe it should be a balance of two or three different philosophies. The general public should know the truth of the matter which is discrimination and misinformation. They generally do not need to know the technicalities, Between ourselfs we can laugh and try not to get caught up the technicalities and enjoy ourselfs. For the goverment use public opinion against them as they did onto us and barrage them with technicalities, like they did onto us.

Sparks

I have zero problem with telling the public all about this AH, I just think marching down the high street in a public protest march isn't the way to do it. And I think we should be pursuing the PR aspect of this at the same time as protesting to the TDs.

ancienthunter

Ok, fair enough but I do think as part of a bigger group most of us will be protesting if they stay in power

chem

Think about this as well. Handguns of 9mm are now restricted. Which means 9mm ammo is now restricted. You cant import your own ammo. What RFD is going to apply for a licence to sell/import restricted items when the cost of the licence is so high and the market here so small.

You wont even be able to get spare parts, for your pistol let alone bullets!!!

You could hang your pistol on the wall for display, only thats illegal now to!

Darr

just on the news now ... (rte radio ) course made it sound like it was banning handguns from criminals (I guess they will hand in all of them now !!!)

also covered here
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eykfauqlqlkf/rss2/
Dar

BigDuffman

So its now official...no more pistolés. Anyone know if that covers .22 Pistols?

On the + side extended powers of search for AGS and 5 Year sentence for posession of a knife.

Sparks

Er, Duffman, maybe read a bit more of the thread? Your questions have already been answered here in depth.

daveob007

I recieved a letter from willie o dea and dermot ahern a few weeks back stating that the new legislation would not impinge on the vast majority of shooters,(what a farce)
after reading all the threads etc i decided to e,mail o dea this morning protesting in a very diplomatic way to the way we are being thrown into the same pot as criminals and terrorists and thus our sporting rights are being almost criminalised, as we are because we happen to own handguns.
I have never felt so screwed over in my life.
We have to make our feelings knowing now (not later) by writing mailing phoning our local reps of all parties because if the current government does get kicked out (soon hopefully) we have a record of our protests to go with in the event of a general election.
Let them all know how insulted we feel about being part of any criminal legislation.
PLEASE DO IT IN A MANNER THAT DOES NOT MAKE US LOOK LIKE A SHOWER OF NUTS.
Keep that anger for here and be very polite, but make your point clearly.

Darr

daveob007 wrote: »

I recieved a letter from willie o dea and dermot ahern a few weeks back stating that the new legislation would not impinge on the vast majority of shooters,(what a farce)
after reading all the threads etc i decided to e,mail o dea this morning protesting in a very diplomatic way to the way we are being thrown into the same pot as criminals and terrorists and thus our sporting rights are being almost criminalised, as we are because we happen to own handguns.
I have never felt so screwed over in my life.
We have to make our feelings knowing now (not later) by writing mailing phoning our local reps of all parties because if the current government does get kicked out (soon hopefully) we have a record of our protests to go with in the event of a general election.
Let them all know how insulted we feel about being part of any criminal legislation.
PLEASE DO IT IN A MANNER THAT DOES NOT MAKE US LOOK LIKE A SHOWER OF NUTS.
Keep that anger for here and be very polite, but make your point clearly.

Could not agree more .
Darr

Sparks

The Minister is apparently on Today FM at the moment - can't get my streaming player up to confirm though

chem

Sparks wrote: »

If it's an umbrella stand it's open at the top, right?
In which case, it's a component part of the ammunition and you'd really have to push on that one (I know someone was done for exactly that a while ago, but it was thrown out of court by the judge, presumably for being silly and wasting the court's time).

Sparks I rang DoJ on this issue. I was told that collectors of inert shells/deact ammo will not be effected by the new law. I asked if they would provide that in writing and was told just to write into them, requesting a letter coving collection of shells/ammo. I was even told I could increase the size of my collection as much as I want

Sparks

That's excellent news chem.

Sparks

From the DoJ website today, the following press release:

Ahern announces handguns ban and tougher penalties for carrying knives

New Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill 2009 Published

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Dermot Ahern, T.D., has published the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill 2009 which imposes a handgun ban and much tougher penalties for individuals found in possession of knives.

The Minister said the new Bill will significantly overhaul the licensing of firearms:

o No new licences will be issued for handguns with very limited exceptions in relation to Olympic sports only
o Any existing handgun licences will be subject to the new rigorous licensing procedures where their renewal is sought.
o A new year three year licensing system for firearms. This new more rigorous system, which will be introduced in August, will allow Superintendents to enquire into the medical history of applicants, provide for character referees for applicants and introduce minimum standards for secure accommodation of firearms. The Garda Commissioner will be able to issue guidelines governing the issue of licences.

The Minister has said he has been shocked by the growth in the number of legally held handguns in the State. "Handguns were effectively banned in the State until 2004, mainly as a result of measures introduced during the Troubles. But following a series of judicial decisions that is no longer the case and about 1,800 handguns have been licensed. That number will continue to rise unless we take action. At least one Judge has expressed his concern at this alarming growth."

"The number of handguns could grow exponentially and would equate to that of countries such as the United States unless the issue is tackled. I am now moving to ban handguns. And my proposals have received the backing by the Chief Inspector of the Garda Inspectorate, Ms. Kathy O'Toole, drawing on her considerable experience in the U.S.."

The Minister said: "The ban on handguns will not affect the vast majority of firearms owners. It is a necessary step in moving away from the handgun culture which has been developing. It mirrors what has been done in other jurisdictions in the light of dreadful atrocities which have been committed using deadly weapons. The time for action is now and not in the bloody aftermath of some horrific shooting."

The Bill will allow the Minister to tackle the issue of realistic imitation firearms ('Airsoft') through restrictions on their importation, sale and use. In particular, it will be an offence to brandish realistic imitation firearms in a public place.

The Minister continued: "When all these measures have been implemented I am satisfied that we will have a comprehensive and effective firearms code where the safety of the public is paramount while at the same time facilitating those who wish to pursue their legitimate interest in this area of activity."

The Bill will focus also on knives and similar weapons. "Legislation on the use of knives and similar weapons is already very strong and heavy penalties are in place. But I am introducing two provisions in the Bill to strengthen the law in this area. The penalty for possessing a knife in a public place is being increased from one to five years and the Gardaí are being given an extended power of search without warrant in relation to knives and offensive weapons. Samurai swords are also to be outlawed."

Other measures which are contained in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill include:

• Amendments to the European Arrest Warrant Act 2003 which have been identified as being necessary to improve the operation of the legislation and to deal with issues which have come to light in the administration of the European Arrest Warrant (EAW) system. These changes are expected to enhance the operation of the EAW system while at the same time safeguarding the rights of people whose surrender is sought on foot of a European Arrest Warrant.

• Provision for the certification of evidence on the part of certain staff of the Garda Technical Bureau so that it may not be necessary to appear in Court to confirm orally the status of particular pieces of evidence in all cases.

• A number of amendments to the Bail Act of 1997 - one of which will clarify that any money paid under recognisance to a prison Governor for example or any other specified person for transmission to the court shall be deemed to be a payment into court. Section 9 of the Bail Act 1997 will be substituted in full to improve the drafting of that particular section.

Dr_Teeth

Sparks wrote: »

Very true. ISSF regulations themselves change a lot more slowly than what's on the olympic programme. Interesting idea - wrong match (50m free pistols - long-arm types or not - qualify as rifles because of their barrel length typically being over 30cm, so this doesn't affect them).

http://www.morini.ch/update/manual/CM%2084E%20Inglese.pdf

Well the Morini CM 84E that I have my eye on has a 29cm barrel and and over-all length of 49.5cm. So it's a "short firearm" for sure; even if the barrel was 1cm longer, in terms of over-all length it's still far short of the 60cm required.

But yeah, I think the SI shouldn't mention any particular sport.. it should just say air gun or .22 for non-restricted.

Sparks

Hmmm. I thought all the 50m pistols were over 30cm. I stand corrected.
Mind you, I stood corrected earlier (I was looking this up for my letter to the Minister and it turns out that an overall length below 60cm will also get it classed as a short firearm. So my bad).