Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

Sent today:

Minister,
I write with a deep sense of alarm at your proposed Criminal Justice
(Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009. I have studied your published
Bill in depth since its release, and am familiar with the general area
of the Firearms Acts, having been a target shooter for many years now.
I have just read your issued press release regarding this Bill, and I
must protest in the strongest possible terms this proposed piece of
legislation. It is grossly unjust and ineffective, and will not achieve
the aims you have set out for it.

To begin, I wish to point out that there has been NO alarming growth in
the number of handguns in this state since 2004. In fact, per capita,
there are currently far fewer handguns licenced since the most recent
comparable year, 1972. Further, the available statistics you have
provided on handguns are distressingly poor - for example, it is much
reported that some 30-odd handguns were stolen over the last few years,
but on examination we discover that these were listed as stolen prior
to 2004 - I have not yet heard an explanation from your office as to
how pistols could have been stolen from their licenced owners before
those pistols were licenced to them!

I must also protest at this ridiculous comparison you have repeatedly
drawn between firearms legislation here and the situation in America.
We have, simply put, a body of law regarding firearms in this state
that is amongst the most rigorous and restrictive in the entire EU. We
class as firearms items which no other EU state classes as firearms
(for example, olympic airguns are classed as firearms nowhere else in
the entire world). How you can state we will wind up with a "handgun
culture" here when we have such a body of law and so few firearms per
capita is beyond reason.

Further, I must protest in the strongest possible terms your libelling
of the Garda Siochana in your press release. To state, as you have
done, that you must act now before a 'bloody shooting' is to imply
directly that one or more Garda Superintendents have acted in breach of
the law by issueing licences to people in strict violation of Section
4(2)(b) of the Firearms Act 1925, as amended, which clearly states
that no firearms licence may be granted by a Superintendent unless
the applicant can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm
and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the
peace.

I must also protest the concurrent libelling of shooters in general by
this statement. All 200,000 of us have undergone rigorous background
checks andmust comply with a significant body of legislation in order
to obtain and keep our firearms certificates; to accuse us of being an
atrocity waiting to happen is monumentally insulting.

Further, I must point out that the Bill as written, if enacted, would
not lead to anything resembling a comprehensive or effective firearms
code. It will in fact fail completely to regulate that which you seek
to control (namely the criminal abuse of guns). It does not fund the
Gardai to enforce existing legislation; it merely impacts on those of
us who take it upon ourselves as law-abiding citizens to adhere to the
law of the land. And by definition, *we are not the problem here*.

Section 27 of the Bill in particular should chill any observant reader.
In this, you as Minister are seeking direct operational authority over
individual Gardai without going through the chain of command. This is
not something which merely affects shooters; this directly affects
every citizen in this state and it is monumentally wrong to seek this
redaction of the seperation of powers in a modern democracy.

As to the ban on personal importation of firearms and/or ammunition,
I can find no rational justification for this. It imposes serious
financial penalties on all shooters in Ireland as domestic firearms
dealers charge up to four times the price for ammunition and several
hundred euros more for firearms than their counterparts even as close
by as Northern Ireland. This is nothing more than a state-sanctioned
monopoly, and I cannot see how it serves the public or in any way
protects the peace.

As to the mechanics of the handgun ban itself, the Bill is woefully
ill-written and ill-advised. You are unfairly rewarding those who
in effect said "To heck with public policy" and purchased handguns
by permitting those handguns to be kept; while punishing those who
waited for legislative and judicial oversight by forbidding them from
purchasing handguns. Even the exemptions afforded the Olympic sports
are ill-phrased and worse, sexist. For example, 50m pistol is shot
by Men in the Olympic Games but not Women - the Women's event occurs
in the World Championships because of commercial pressures on spaces
and sports in the Olympic programme. As the Bill referrs to Olympic
shooting instead of ISSF shooting (the ISSF being the governing body
for Olympic shooting), you have in effect banned women from a sport but
permitted men to take part in it.

This Bill must not stand. It does nothing but damage the sport enjoyed
by hundreds of thousands of people in Ireland with no benefit for
the remainder of the population who seek protection from the crime
problem posed by drugs in this country. It is an unjust, unfair and
unsupportable piece of legislation and I urge you most strongly to
withdraw it.

Yours in Sport,

kakashka

No expert on this and dont wish to upset but just heard on news that minister is pushing ahead with ban on handguns,anyone hear same?didnt catch all.

Ned Muldhoon

Speech made today:

"The Minister has said he has been shocked by the growth in the number of legally held handguns in the State. "Handguns were effectively banned in the State until 2004, mainly as a result of measures introduced during the Troubles. But following a series of judicial decisions that is no longer the case and about 1,800 handguns have been licensed. That number will continue to rise unless we take action. At least one Judge has expressed his concern at this alarming growth."

"The number of handguns could grow exponentially and would equate to that of countries such as the United States unless the issue is tackled. I am now moving to ban handguns. And my proposals have received the backing by the Chief Inspector of the Garda Inspectorate, Ms. Kathy O'Toole, drawing on her considerable experience in the U.S.."

The Minister said: "The ban on handguns will not affect the vast majority of firearms owners. It is a necessary step in moving away from the handgun culture which has been developing. It mirrors what has been done in other jurisdictions in the light of dreadful atrocities which have been committed using deadly weapons. The time for action is now and not in the bloody aftermath of some horrific shooting."

The Bill will allow the Minister to tackle the issue of realistic imitation firearms ('Airsoft') through restrictions on their importation, sale and use. In particular, it will be an offence to brandish realistic imitation firearms in a public place.

The Minister continued: "When all these measures have been implemented I am satisfied that we will have a comprehensive and effective firearms code where the safety of the public is paramount while at the same time facilitating those who wish to pursue their legitimate interest in this area of activity."

V Bull

kakashka wrote: »

No expert on this and dont wish to upset but just heard on news that minister is pushing ahead with ban on handguns,anyone hear same?didnt catch all.

"Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern also said the Government will be going ahead with his proposal to ban handguns"

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0514/garda.html

Ned Muldhoon

Another statement in the same speech:
"o Any existing handgun licences will be subject to the new rigorous licensing procedures where their renewal is sought."

does that mean unless your 9mm suddenly transforms into a .22 ISSF type pistol it won't be renewed?

Grizzly 45

Saw it,just a sound byte of the usual crap about swords and the current fuk up by the media about banning handguns.:rolleyes:

Does that man just have that speech about rising guncrime,the USA,The cheif inspectors of the Branch experiance [in gun banning and allowing untrained police officers to shoot people in riots in Boston] and not affecting the majority of Irish gunowners stuck in his brain:mad:

FFS it is the same old tired blather he has said on this since the word go!
No wonder this country is in such a Godawful mess with people like this in charge.
One thing for sure.This lot had better not show up on my door looking for my vote!!Anyone but this shower !!!

jwshooter

just seen the news "were going to ban hand guns as promised" they also promised to up grade the hospital service, improve schools, create employment, look after the elderly.
all they have done is line there own pockets and get fat off our backs .

lads we should have a list of politicians on hear we depend on and that work for if we get them in.

kildarejoe

What the minister and Guards need to realise that this is not the wild west, just because the country is run and controlled by a shower of cowboys dosent make it the wild west.

Im sure the gangland scumbags arent goint to worry much about licencing anything, Im sure they went into the local station and said "Storeeeeeeeeeeee gaaaaard, any chance of an auld licence for meee uzi to whack me rival scumbags, Buuuuuuuuud"

I could rant on but is there much point.
It may be worth noting that the only person killed with a legally held handgun was in abbylara, when a suicidal man was shot by the guards AFTER he was seen UNLOADING his shotgun, hmmmmmmmmm.

How many of those 1800 handguns are those licensed to vets for dispatching large animals, typically .32 revolvers used for this.

murfie

it seems to me the minister is more worried that the law abiding citizens are going to rise up against him and the government so he is getting rid of all the deadly weapons legally held!!

I recently went shooting for the first time here in Texas, had some mates from Ireland over. I am buying a gun for sure after I used the 9mm, the .22 is not the same by a long shot so i understand your frustration if this comes through.

daveob007

Sparks wrote: »

Sent today:

thanks for that, that really outlines all our concerns and very well written.
i sent a much shorter version to groucho marks (ooops sorry) o dea but with thw same content.
i hope they get 100s of such letters and a major beating in the upcoming elections

Grizzly 45

Dave,
Belive it or not,I've found Willie O Dea pretty approachable and does listen to the shooters POV,and is actually intrested in shooting.Seeimg that he is my local TD,he'l get my complaint and grouse about this in person.

Sparks

From the NTSA website:

New Firearms Legislation - update

The committee of the NTSA have studied the proposed Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009. As stated earlier, it appears to have fallen broadly in line with the Minister’s statement of November 2008. We welcome the fact that the Minister has seen fit to honour his commitment to make exception for the ISSF/Olympic pistol sports although we hope that this exception will extend to centre fire pistol. The NTSA has always maintained that there is no need for further legislation in this area and the Minister’s concerns would have been readily addressed by implementing the currently un-commenced legislation.

The ban on personal imports will impact heavily on our athletes whose equipment is too specialised to attract the ordinary dealer. Hopefully we will be able to offer some compromise solutions that will minimise the impact of this particular section of the bill. We also wish to make it abundantly clear that we most strenuously and vehemently object to having our sport regulated under criminal legislation. Indeed the imputation by the Minister that this legislation in some way mitigates against crime is an egregious insult to the many talented sportsmen and sportswomen who take part in the shooting sports in this country. There will be a meeting of the Firearms Consultative Panel in the near future and we will be happy to bring any of your concerns or questions to that body when it meets

Sparks

And we're in the media. From today's Irish Times with some seriously disturbing bits that I'd not spotted in the Bill:

SENIOR GARDAÍ will have the power to inquire into the physical and mental health of anybody applying for a firearms licence under new measures being introduced by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern.

The new legislation will also require applicants to submit character references and provide proof they have installed safes and other measures ensuring weapons are properly locked away when they are not being used.

Mr Ahern said the Criminal Justice Miscellaneous Provisions Bill would introduce a blanket ban on any new handgun licences being issued. “Handguns were effectively banned during the Troubles,” he said. “But following a series of judicial decisions that is no longer the case, and around 1,800 handguns have been licensed. That number will continue to rise unless we take action. At least one judge has expressed concern at this alarming growth.”

He said licences for handguns and other firearms will be due for renewal in the summer months. It was vital the proposed Bill be enacted before then.

Gardaí had proven very successful in seizing illegal firearms. Some 2,000 weapons had been seized under Operation Anvil alone in recent years.

There are no plans in place for another weapons amnesty.

Mr Ahern was speaking at a Garda Reserve passing-out at the Garda College, Templemore, Co Tipperary.

Under the new legislation no new handgun licences will be issued, with limited exceptions for Olympic shooting sports. Existing licensees will be subjected to much more rigorous checks than at present.

From August, a Garda superintendent will be allowed to inquire into the medical, including mental, health of a licence applicant. Those seeking licences will have to provide character references and proof of having installed secure storage for their guns.

Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy said he believed the vast majority of Irish people did not want to see a regime where more handgun licences were issued.

“The new legislation also gives me the ability to circulate guidelines to Garda members on the issuing of all types of firearms licences. That means there will be a uniform approach.”

And from today's Examiner:

Laws to crack down on licensed handguns

A MAJOR crackdown on licensed handguns and stiffer jail sentences for people found carrying knives and Samurai swords, has been announced by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern.

Outlining the new legislation, Mr Ahern said he was shocked to learn that 1,800 handguns had been licensed over the past four years.

Non-Garda and army personnel have to obtain a licence to own a handgun. Handguns were effectively banned in the State until 2004, as a result of measures introduced during the Northern troubles.

Following a series of judicial decisions, however, that situation changed in 2004.

Mr Ahern said: "The number (of handgun licences) will continue to rise unless we take action. At least one judge has expressed his concern at this alarming growth."

He announced the Government decision to enact the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill 2009 at Templemore College where 101 new members of the Garda Reserve graduated.

Mr Ahern said: "I don’t think the broad spectrum of people in Ireland want a gun culture in the country. Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy and the Garda management support strongly what I am doing.

"It is a necessary step in moving away from the handgun culture which has been developing.

"It mirrors what has been done in other jurisdictions in the light of dreadful atrocities which have been committed using deadly weapons."

Under the legislation no new handgun licenses will be issued, with limited exceptions where Olympic sports are involved.

Existing handgun licenses will be subject to the new rigorous licensing procedures when a renewal is sought.

Mr Ahern also announced a new three-year licensing system which will be introduced for non-handgun firearms, such as shotguns. This new vetting system will come into effect next August.

Mr Ahern said it is imperative that the new law is enacted before the summer, due to the licensing situation with guns.

The new legislation will also outlaw the brandishing of realistic imitation firearms in a public place and place restrictions on the importation and sale of replicas and "airsoft" guns.

Penalties for carrying knives will also be ratcheted up considerably.

Under the terms of the new bill, the maximum penalty for possession of a knife in a public place will be increased from one to five years. Samurai swords will also be outlawed.

Mr Ahern said: "Legislation on the use of knives and similar weapons is already very strong and heavy fines are in place. But I am introducing two provisions in the bill to strengthen the law in this area."

rrpc

There is nothing in that bill that I can find either about mental health checks, character references or safe storage. There may well be such stipulations within the Commissioner's guidelines, but they haven't been published yet (if they ever will be).

Minister in 'making things up' shock

On the character references issue, I do hope that the Minister or Commissioner has paid due heed to what was stated at the Barr Tribunal with regard to such references.

Traumadoc

While those with handguns may still be permitted to have them, will the minister be now able to stop ammunition supplies?

rrpc

Traumadoc wrote: »

While those with handguns may still be permitted to have them, will the minister be now able to stop ammunition supplies?

In theory he could declare specific ammunition 'prohibited' and in that case the firearm that uses it would either be prohibited or useless. I think he may have to be very careful in that regard because if something like that were to happen, it could lead to compensation claims etc.

Easier to allow someone to replace the firearm with one 'not prohibited' in that case.

I am not convinced that the bill doesn't allow for the substitution of pistols in any event. The limitation in this bill is on applications whereas substitutions are specifically referred to within the main act seperately; (1964 11) and that hasn't changed, although substitutions in relation to restricted firearms have to be approved by the Minister or Commissioner.

rrpc

This whole 'prohibited' firearm and ammunition section is going to make things very confusing indeed. There is already a definition of 'prohibited weapon' within the firearms acts and it's quite different from what's in this bill.

Section 1:

“prohibited weapon” means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon or any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas or other noxious thing;

There's also a good bit in Section 17 and references dotted all around the act.

Very confusing indeed.

daveob007

This thing seems to have more questions than answers which proves that the whole thing was rushed in without any thought whatsoever.
At least now it seems that the shooting bodies who represent our sports have jumped on it and feel the same way as we do.
Hopefully the minister will sit up and listen,maybe he is just throwing out the worst case cenario just to test the waters and see what he can get away with,this is uasually the case in any sort of talks with the end result being some sort of compromise that suits both parties.
Looks like a long and hard road ahead but maybe there will be something at the end of it all.
We should still make our feelings knows to the rest of the politicians of all parties.
Or maybe this is just wishful thinking,maybe he really wants to screw us after all.

jwshooter

this ban on new hand gun licences has not a hope of coming in .

it would be like saying every one driving can drive away any one new may ride a bike .
it has no hope of holding up in a court.
its one way or the other ,no pistols or pistols

they dont want to ban them outright as they would have to pay compensation.

It wasn't me!

To be honest I don't see a reason for it not to work. I can't see anything illegal about it.

fat-tony

jwshooter wrote: »

this ban on new hand gun licences has not a hope of coming in .

it would be like saying every one driving can drive away any one new may ride a bike .
it has no hope of holding up in a court.
its one way or the other ,no pistols or pistols

they dont want to ban them outright as they would have to pay compensation.

Not sure what you mean by "its one way or the other ,no pistols or pistols"
Other jurisdictions have moved to restrict the use of certain classes of firearms and have implemented what are called "grandfather" rules where existing holders of certain types of firearms can retain them under certain conditions, while no new applications are "considered" (which is the terminology in the proposed Bill).
There are types of firearms (e.g. machine pistols or full-auto rifles) which are not licensable now or ever were. The restricted SI of 2008 classified certain pistols, types of rifles and shotguns plus certain ammunition as "restricted" - this proposed Bill will now put that into law. (correction this is already law - just that the procedures for handling it are not in place fully)
You may well be right that the proposals will be challenged but they are no surprise as they were flagged by the Minister back in November 2008.

milkerman

I dont think this Minister listens.
I dont think this Government listens.
I think we would all fare better with this minister if we were something he could understand - like convicted paedophiles or something like that.

This Bill is confused and ill considered and in line with current Government performance.

Also, our interpretation of the various sections is largely irrelevant - what is relevant is how the Gardai will interpret it because they are the ones we deal with on a day-to-day basis.

A considered advice by a skilled lawyer on the Bill might be useful. At least we could refer to the advice in our protestations to the various politicians.

chem

jwshooter wrote: »

this ban on new hand gun licences has not a hope of coming in .

it would be like saying every one driving can drive away any one new may ride a bike .
it has no hope of holding up in a court.
its one way or the other ,no pistols or pistols

they dont want to ban them outright as they would have to pay compensation.

Jw, id say thats why the minister wants the law in before renewal time. All smells of a defacto ban on the way!

jwshooter

the reason it was left so late is there all on hols for 3 months shortly and there going to rush it through.

time for the sporting groups with a interest in pistols to act now.

or is the deal done. are the people in the pistol shooting groups not keeping there pistols.

any of the make a statement yet.

chem

jwshooter wrote: »

the reason it was left so late is there all on hols for 3 months shortly and there going to rush it through.

time for the sporting groups with a interest in pistols to act now.

or is the deal done. are the people in the pistol shooting groups not keeping there pistols.

any of the make a statement yet.

Des from the NARGC said they would be taking no more court actions on this issue. It was in the last shooting digest.

Call me a conspiracy buff :rolleyes: but it smacks of two things to me.

1. Des was told to back off or we would lose alot more then pistols

OR

2. Des knew what was going to be in the law, and so dropped any up comming actions in the high courts.

chem

I think the Minister should focus on illegally held guns not legally held firearms.
_____________________________________
Charles Flanagan TD
Fine Gael Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Dáil Eireann, Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Constituency: Lismard Court, Portlaoise, Co. Laois &
O'Moore Street, Mountmellick
Phone: 01 618 3625 & 05786 20232
Fax: 01 618 4568
Email: charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
Web: www.charlesflanagan.finegael.ie

Half-cocked

“prohibited weapon” means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon or any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas or other noxious thing;"

Er, isn't lead considered a 'noxious thing' in environmental legislation/EU directives? :eek:

Grizzly 45

chem wrote: »

Des from the NARGC said they would be taking no more court actions on this issue. It was in the last shooting digest.

Call me a conspiracy buff :rolleyes: but it smacks of two things to me.

1. Des was told to back off or we would lose alot more then pistols

OR

2. Des knew what was going to be in the law, and so dropped any up comming actions in the high courts.

OR some sort of deal was done regarding future law and NARGC having the sole rights in Ireland authorised by the Govt to be the only recognised training body for instructors and new applicants???

It would be nice if Des would issue a statement on these points.As this has been flying around the rumour mill for awhile.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As this has been flying around the rumour mill for awhile.

Yes, but with different names attached to it every time it went around!

jwshooter

chem wrote: »

Des from the NARGC said they would be taking no more court actions on this issue. It was in the last shooting digest.

Call me a conspiracy buff :rolleyes: but it smacks of two things to me.

1. Des was told to back off or we would lose alot more then pistols

OR

2. Des knew what was going to be in the law, and so dropped any up comming actions in the high courts.

the nargc have no interest in practical pistol shooting in the first and were one of the first groups to wash there hands of it.


what are the pistol shooting groups doing