Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

what are the pistol shooting groups doing

Don't know about the NASRPC, but the NTSA statement on that is up above.

Jonty

chem wrote: »

I think the Minister should focus on illegally held guns not legally held firearms.
_____________________________________
Charles Flanagan TD
Fine Gael Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Dáil Eireann, Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Constituency: Lismard Court, Portlaoise, Co. Laois &
O'Moore Street, Mountmellick
Phone: 01 618 3625 & 05786 20232
Fax: 01 618 4568
Email: charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie
Web: www.charlesflanagan.finegael.ie

Charlie changed his tune from anti to pro. FG are as bad.

Sparks

Any better ideas Jonty?

Rovi

Jonty wrote: »

Charlie changed his tune from anti to pro.

I fail to see how this is a 'bad thing'; surely it's exactly what we want?

In fairness, I wouldn't be claiming that Charlie is 'pro' in the traditional sense of the word when used in regard to firearms, but he has shown himself to be at least willing to talk to people and listen to their opinions and to take their concerns into consideration when formulating his position, in marked contrast to the attitude of the Minister.

Jonty

TBH Sparks, No. The political establishment in this country have always done as they have seen fit. Its the whole "to be seen doing something" thing that gets to me.

Its like what you have said before. We can't take to the streets as we will be seen as gun nuts and we are too small in numbers ((pistol shooters only)- I don't have the priviledge) to make an impact at election time.

Dermot Aherne thinks guns are bad. Fair enough thats his view, and no amount of invitations to ranges will change that because he must be seen to be doing something. To the average person in the street, they don't know that handguns can be licensed in the state (this is a good thing because it means that licensed shooters don't cause the problem), but with all the illegal guns doing the rounds its easy to pick on licensed shooters.

The government manipulate fear into the population. They say - "there are 1800 licensed handguns in the country". They will not give breakdown in in air pistols, olympic type etc, but instead use key words that are associated with crime- such as "9mm" and "automatic pistol" and the dreaded "glock". Average joe is gobsmacked. the government then say " Let us sort that out -we'll prevent them from falling into the wrong hands by not issuing any more licenses". Average Joe is now happy. The fear that has been created by the government is now cured by the government.

I do believe that when scummers start picking each other off with scoped rifles, the government will start on rifles.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist and anything like that, I love my country and I love my sport and I hate the fact that some suit will try to take it from me and I will be powerless. Shooting associations will only do what is in their best interest I believe.

Jonty

Rovi wrote: »

I fail to see how this is a 'bad thing'; surely it's exactly what we want?

In fairness, I wouldn't be claiming that Charlie is 'pro' in the traditional sense of the word when used in regard to firearms, but he has shown himself to be at least willing to talk to people and listen to their opinions and to take their concerns into consideration when formulating his position, in marked contrast to the attitude of the Minister.

Ok Rovi thats a fair point. But its bad that he has probably changed because of the FF/Green stance on the pistol issue is it not?

The last thing that we as a group need is political party that change their views on private legitimate firearms use as they see fit. I'm not on about the right to bear arms now, don't get me wrong.

Rovi

Tom McGurk is doing an item sometime between now and 7:
http://www.4fm.ie/listen_live.asp

Rovi

Sounded pretty good, what I heard of it; my idiot Internet connection kept stopping to buffer the feed, so I missed good chunks of it.
Did anyone manage to record it?

Grizzly 45

Its like what you have said before. We can't take to the streets as we will be seen as gun nuts and we are too small in numbers ((pistol shooters only)- I don't have the priviledge) to make an impact at election time.

Could always Flash Mob him,to get the point across.:rolleyes:

Average joe is gobsmacked. the government then say " Let us sort that out -we'll prevent them from falling into the wrong hands by not issuing any more licenses". Average Joe is now happy. The fear that has been created by the government is now cured by the government.

In all fairness to Avg Joe,he isnt fobbed off anymore with these cosmetic gestures on anything anymore. We have had way too many of them from this Govt and this one is being seen thru since Nov last year when this was announced.People are well aware that it is not us the ligit gunowner that causes these problems.Rather gangs that are turning parts of our cities into "no go" areas for Gardai and citizens alike.:mad: The only people who seem to think this will work are the Govt and their media flunkies,anyone else knows it is pure codology.

This farce will come home to roost,when the next person is shot,either criminal or mistaken ID citizen or somone who does their duty in the witness box. Be their deaths on Mr Ahernes head for evermore then!
He is promising a secure society by banning our ligit held guns,and promising no domestic murders if the handguns are removed from society,as he quoted some spurious crap yesterday about if there are guns in a domestic strife situation,there is a good chance somone willl use one.[Hmm last time I heard it was domestic kitchen knives werethe item of choice for serious martial tiffs here].What will his excuse be when the next gurrier or innocent is gunned down???

I do believe that when scummers start picking each other off with scoped rifles, the government will start on rifles.

That would require disipline,time and training.Somthing scumbags are not very adept at.More likely some anti gun press whore looking for a scoop,and finding "deadly sniper rifles that can shoot the gnoads off a gnat at 100 miles are available to the Irish gunowner over the counter."
Translated,a decent target rifle becomes a "sniper rifle" in the next gun to be jumped on.

I love my country and I love my sport and I hate the fact that some suit will try to take it from me and I will be powerless. Shooting associations will only do what is in their best interest I believe

At times like these,you really wonder why should you be anyway proud of ones country,when whenever you try to do right,obey all the laws,pay your taxes,and hyper inflated prices for the most basic of items in our sport...all you get is a massive kick in the bollix by a bunch of incompetant spendthrifts who are out looking for scapegoats and now more of our money for their failings over the last decade.Makes me want to puke!:mad:

I would also like to know;How will this liscensing for Olympic pistol shooters work??
It takes a Hell of a lot of work to become an Olympiad,but how do you become one if your most basic tool IE a pistol for the revelant disipline is unavailable to you to train and practise with?
How do you become Olympic material?? So does this mean,we all can still apply for pistols so long as we are "aspiring" to become Olympiads in whatever disiplines we fancy??
Kafkaesque at best. Bizarre and crazy at worst.

chem

Bloody connection kept dien :mad: Did hear some bits. Didnt come across great. 1st off starting saying that guns are stolen from alot of homes! and farmers shotguns have no security!! then pulled it back abit by saying only 5 licenced pistols were stolen. Mentioning other countries that outlawed pistols didnt help to much.

Rovi

Sounds like we overloaded their system.

With a bit of luck someone will have grabbed it, or it'll appear on their site as a podcast.

Sparks

It wasn't quite that bad chem, I think you didn't hear the full thing. Didn't get it recorded, but listened to it live. Points made were things like the 30 stolen pistols statistic, the difference in security requirements between pistol owners and shotgun owners (and yeah, it was a bit rough on farmers), and mentioned M.Walls (though not by name) as being 4th in the world in pistol shooting. The segment wasn't long enough to get much detail in there. But at least Dave didn't reiterate how olympic shooting was paint-drying ****e

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Could always Flash Mob him,to get the point across.:rolleyes:

"ARMED MOB AMBUSHES MINISTER"...

In all fairness to Avg Joe,he isnt fobbed off anymore with these cosmetic gestures on anything anymore.

True, and that's a welcome relief; but the average Joe also can't stop the bill

I would also like to know;How will this liscensing for Olympic pistol shooters work??
It takes a Hell of a lot of work to become an Olympiad,but how do you become one if your most basic tool IE a pistol for the revelant disipline is unavailable to you to train and practise with?

From what I can see in the Bill, you buy a pistol and shoot it on a range. The reason it's bad for olympic shooting is that the wording of the Bill would mean folks who own a .22 pistol like a Ruger wouldn't be able to use it as a cheap 'have-a-go' entry point to the sport. But if you're willing to buy an IZH-46M out of the gate, then there's no hiccup (of course if you want to shoot ISSF fullbore, you're stuffed). So basicly, there's no hangup so long as money is no problem.

Which I'm sure we can all say with confidence in the midst of this marvellous economic boom we're all experiencing, right? I mean, none of us even blink at the idea of having to spend €600-€1500 to try some new sport we've never heard of before, right? We've all got cash to burn, right?

How do you become Olympic material?? So does this mean,we all can still apply for pistols so long as we are "aspiring" to become Olympiads in whatever disiplines we fancy??

Or to shoot an olympic discipline. Look, I shoot olympic air pistol, but I don't want to go to the Olympics with it, I just enjoy the challange (and I like the way it improves my rifle trigger control). You don't necessarily have to want to be Tiger Woods to play pitch-n-putt, do you?

BOBTHESHOOTER

Sparks wrote: »

"ARMED MOB AMBUSHES MINISTER"...True, and that's a welcome relief; but the average Joe also can't stop the bill From what I can see in the Bill, you buy a pistol and shoot it on a range. The reason it's bad for olympic shooting is that the wording of the Bill would mean folks who own a .22 pistol like a Ruger wouldn't be able to use it as a cheap 'have-a-go' entry point to the sport. But if you're willing to buy an IZH-46M out of the gate, then there's no hiccup (of course if you want to shoot ISSF fullbore, you're stuffed). So basicly, there's no hangup so long as money is no problem.

Which I'm sure we can all say with confidence in the midst of this marvellous economic boom we're all experiencing, right? I mean, none of us even blink at the idea of having to spend €600-€1500 to try some new sport we've never heard of before, right? We've all got cash to burn, right?
Or to shoot an olympic discipline. Look, I shoot olympic air pistol, but I don't want to go to the Olympics with it, I just enjoy the challange (and I like the way it improves my rifle trigger control). You don't necessarily have to want to be Tiger Woods to play pitch-n-putt, do you?

Lads is there any chance on earth that we can stop the current discussion on a very public boards that the Department and the Gardai look at for sure.

Our ramblings and ongoing arguments are no benefit to the sport.

We are where we are because of the unbelievable fragmentation in the shooting community! FACT

The little that we might hold on to is being very seriously compromised by the very discussion that Mr Sparks is dragging on.

Right now the only kink of light in a very dark cloud is the possibility of carrying on Target shooting for new people with .22 Target Pistols which are declared by the act as non restircted.

Argue what ever way you like about the definition of an Olympic style, ISSF ***ox .22 pistol, but if I decide to participate in an ISSF competition my Rurger Mark II .22 Target Pistol qualifies as does a BuckMark and many other entry level target .22 pistols.

At this very sensitive time I would ask the moderators to close this thread in the interest of the sport.

Lets carry on this debate internally, lets get a unified response and lets go to our FCP representatives to bring that response to the Forum that they were nominated to...................

Enough is enough, more damage has been done to the sport and continues to be done to the sport from within and in particular debate in public certainly does not help.

Time to pause the discussions and let our reps do there jobs.

dresden8

Does the FCP own the forum and control all rights to discussion on the subject of shooting sports?

Sparks

BOBTHESHOOTER wrote: »

Lads is there any chance on earth that we can stop the current discussion on a very public boards that the Department and the Gardai look at for sure.

Are you kidding me?
Gosh, we've appeared on the radio condemning this Bill, we've written to the Minister and the Department and the editors of all the major newspapers, and the NGBs are publicly condemning parts or all of the Bill - somehow I think the cat's out of the bag.

And please don't sell me the "let the NGBs handle it, they know better" line - the NGBs have an easier time of it when the grassroots protest.

We are where we are because of the unbelievable fragmentation in the shooting community! FACT

Let me stop you there Bob, because I've got some fairly different views on that one and that's not a box you want to open.

Argue what ever way you like about the definition of an Olympic style, ISSF ***ox .22 pistol, but if I decide to participate in an ISSF competition my Rurger Mark II .22 Target Pistol qualifies as does a BuckMark and many other entry level target .22 pistols.

That's an argument that depends on the ignorance of the Superintendent you're asking for a licence from, and that's not a situation that's good for a sport.
Any sport.

Not to mention, what happens if in 2016 the pressure on spaces for the Games pushes .22 pistol off the programme? Under the Bill as written, your pistol wouldn't then be licencable.

At this very sensitive time I would ask the moderators to close this thread in the interest of the sport.

I can't speak for the other three, but you can consider my vote on that to be to emphatically say no thank you to that request.

Time to pause the discussions and let our reps do there jobs.

Nope. Reps didn't get the fees hike rescinded. Grassroots protest did. And that's all that'll do it this time. Unless the TDs see the numbers protesting for themselves, they'll do little more than pay lip service to listening to NGBs.

Sparks

dresden8 wrote: »

Does the FCP own the forum and control all rights to discussion on the subject of shooting sports?

No, and the mods are and have always been very emphatic on this point - no NGB has editorial control or veto over anything in here.

dresden8

A thought.

Can't import firearms or ammunition, surely that's against EU law about the free movement of goods and services, if anybody hasn't mentioned it before.

Will the court cases stack up on this?

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

No, and the mods are and have always been very emphatic on this point - no NGB has editorial control or veto over anything in here.

But you yourself, who is probably the most prolific Mod on this forum, are/were totally behind the FCP process which has led to a very one sided slant to the discussions here. Are we now being told we can speak our minds without fear or favour?

I think the FCP has been shown up to be nothing more than a talking shop tbh.

I am still working out my full response to this for my NGB's and my TD and as soon as it is complete if I am allowed I shall post it here

Grizzly 45

"ARMED MOB AMBUSHES MINISTER"

Or Grassroots activists aim for Minister??

It all depends how it is handled,and by the sound of things no one has gone off to a PR course ye in the shooting bodies.

...True, and that's a welcome relief; but the average Joe also can't stop the bill

Indeedy,but maybe we could get them on our side ,by saying All us Average Joes and Janes want our cities back from armed mobsters,and not easy good PR stunts.IOW do your job Ministers for which you are totally overpaid are you are all out of a job by Christmas,if not sooner.

But if you're willing to buy an IZH-46M out of the gate, then there's no hiccup (of course if you want to shoot ISSF fullbore, you're stuffed). So basicly, there's no hangup so long as money is no problem.

But on that point how will you be [1] able to buy this high tech piece or even a lowly Ruger or whatever. IF you cant get a liscense for it???
Going by the Bills logic????:rolleyes:There will be NO new liscenses issued for anything EVER.So that means,the Olympic team is stuffed unless those who have already got Olly[limpic] pistols are liscensed.Obviously they are,but you dont stay an Olympiad for ever in any sport you will degrade thru old age,injury whatever.So it will mean that going by the law ,Ireland will be sending the most geriatic shooting team to the future Olympics around the world,as these will be the only folk able to compete or train legally in Ireland??

Which I'm sure we can all say with confidence in the midst of this marvellous economic boom we're all experiencing, right? I mean, none of us even blink at the idea of having to spend €600-€1500 to try some new sport we've never heard of before, right? We've all got cash to burn, right?

Sure Sparks, we all have cash to burn...If you are in the lofty heights and halls of the Dail,where 1500 quid is a tip to the bell boy STILL:(
And I agree with you,it is total crap,and the fact as you said the cheap entry stuff could be killed off as well..

Or to shoot an olympic discipline. Look, I shoot olympic air pistol, but I don't want to go to the Olympics with it, I just enjoy the challange (and I like the way it improves my rifle trigger control)

True enough Sparks but what happens when suddenly the whole place and clubs are innundated with "Olympic hopefuls".Dontcha think there will be suddenly another panic attack about this,and some sort of screening of now "serious Olympic shooters" will be emplaced,which will be as workable as this bill??

You don't necessarily have to want to be Tiger Woods to play pitch-n-putt, do you

True,but then even Tiger Woods would find it a bit hard to play P&P if he wasnt allowed anything but a plastic toy golf club, or ONE of his custom Pro Am Titanium golf clubs.;)

Grizzly 45

dresden8 wrote: »

A thought.

Can't import firearms or ammunition, surely that's against EU law about the free movement of goods and services, if anybody hasn't mentioned it before.

Will the court cases stack up on this?

There is that all right.BUT we would have to find out does firearms dealing in Ireland fall under a "qualified trade"? IOW you cant practise as a lawyer here with say ,German qualifications.Without doing all the malarkey to become an Irish solicitor.Means a regional Govt of the EU,can still dictate what standards certain trades or professions have to meet in their country to operate.If it could be proved that there is a monopoly or Cartel situation with Irish dealers price fixing ,after if,or when this becomes law.THEN it would be in contravention of both Irish and EU law.
By and all,another day in court for Irish gunowners:(

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

But you yourself, who is probably the most prolific Mod on this forum, are/were totally behind the FCP process

Yes, but just because I like steak doesn't mean that the cow gets to tell me when I can eat it!

which has led to a very one sided slant to the discussions here. Are we now being told we can speak our minds without fear or favour?

You always could BS - so long as you don't break the charter, anyone can post more or less anything in here.

I think the FCP has been shown up to be nothing more than a talking shop tbh.

Er, BS - where in the constitution is the bit that says that a non-governmental organisation can issue legislation over the Minister's objections? Talk is all the FCP or any other arrangement could ever bring about (and no, court cases aren't more effective, they can be overruled by the Minister - remember the first bit to do with firearms in the Criminal Justice Bill 2004?). And that's not a bad thing - it's more than we ever thought was possible ten years ago. The problem is that while the DoJ is listening, the Minister isn't.

I am still working out my full response to this for my NGB's and my TD and as soon as it is complete if I am allowed I shall post it here

Post away (just don't break the charter).

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Or Grassroots activists aim for Minister??

Which is the Daily Star more likely to use? Seriously?

But on that point how will you be [1] able to buy this high tech piece or even a lowly Ruger or whatever. IF you cant get a liscense for it?

Even the Bill as written isn't that bad just yet.

these will be the only folk able to compete or train legally in Ireland?

No, I think you're reading something in there that isn't in there. That's not to say the Minister hasn't got something in mind for later - the remarks he made to the Gardai in his speech in Templemore mentioned a few things that aren't in the Bill, like character references and so forth.

Sure Sparks, we all have cash to burn

You lucky git

the cheap entry stuff could be killed off as well..

Yeah, that's the real pain in the neck. Clubs would have to invest enormous amounts to get mid-to-high-level pistols, which means fewer available, which limits the number of folks you can take in at once, which strangles the sport

True enough Sparks but what happens when suddenly the whole place and clubs are innundated with "Olympic hopefuls"

Then we'll train them It's a problem I'd like to have.

Dontcha think there will be suddenly another panic attack about this,and some sort of screening of now "serious Olympic shooters" will be emplaced,which will be as workable as this bill?

To be honest, I wouldn't be enormously shocked; but there's no provision for that yet, so I'd rather focus on opposing what's on the paper at the moment.

even Tiger Woods would find it a bit hard to play P&P if he wasnt allowed anything but a plastic toy golf club, or ONE of his custom Pro Am Titanium golf clubs.;)

Way too true

chem

Lads. If the minister wants to rush this bill. What changes can be made, If any? What minister wants to be seen holding up a bill that will help catch the bad guys, just because afew pistol shooters are upset?

Or can some sections be passed and others held back until later?

bunny shooter

Sparks,

I mean a talking shop as in there was discussions BUT the legislation I am reading looks very like the shooting parties on the FCP weren't listened to by the DOJ or Minister :mad:

Hence, I reckon it is/was a talking shop.

bunny shooter

chem,

Love the signature :D

Sparks

Amendments can be made in Committee stage to totally rewrite the Bill if so desired chem (that's what happened with the CJB2004 - there were more amendments than original text when McDowell was done with it).

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

I mean a talking shop as in there was discussions BUT the legislation I am reading looks very like the shooting parties on the FCP weren't listened to by the DOJ or Minister :mad:

I'd agree with you about the Minister - but I've been talking with the people in the department for a while and I just don't get that sense from them. Their hands are certainly tied in some regards because they're civil servants and obligated by law to do what the Minister directs them to do, but where they've had leeway, they've always used it to do as little harm to us as they could.

Grizzly 45

For sure Chem.THAT will get you undivided attention here.:D:D

bunny shooter

Lads and Ladies,

We should not forget we are in a very small minority on this island

Most people on this island believe any weapon (they don't tend call them sporting firearms :rolleyes:) is dangerous and anyone who has or wants them is a looney or a possible looney.

The media is driven by a desire to sell more papers etc and are responsible for a lot of the misconceptions of the average joe soap in the street who is not into the shooting sports.

The Minister is a politican, he needs lots of votes to keep his cushy job, pension etc. So therefore, he will pander to the majority as there lies the most votes which as stated above secures his cushy lifestyle :mad:

Therefore, we are always going to be fighting a loosing battle as long as the media are against us and as long as the majority of citizens on this island are not in favour of the shooting sports.

We live in a democracy where majority rules.

Now as I said in my opening statement - We should not forget we are in a very small minority on this island