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300 civil servants are paid more than €165,000 per year

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    #32
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Cardinal Blue wrote: »
    As far as i know gratuity is usually 1.5 times your wages(based on service).
    A lump sum of up to €247500 tax payers money,very nice!.Were do I sign up?.

    Don't forget the 80K a year pension on top of that 250K odd "gratuity" lump sum. Absolutely outrageous.


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    #33
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I'm not getting into a completely useless comparison you are trying to make between a handful of fat cats that you could count on one hand and the majority of employments in this country that are managed by entrepreneurs who are employing under 30 people, who are responsible for the majority of economic activity in this country and have created the majority of jobs...

    I see. You prefer your even more useless comparison.

    There are far more than a handful of fat cats in the private sector. I'm not so intemperate as to suggest that all those at the top in the private sector are overpaid, but there are many thousands in the private sector earning seriously large amounts on the scale you complain about when they are paid in the public sector.


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    #34
    guinnessdrinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭guinnessdrinker


    Cardinal Blue wrote: »
    As far as i know gratuity is usually 1.5 times your wages(based on service).
    A lump sum of up to €247500 tax payers money,very nice!.Were do I sign up?.

    Where did you hear this?


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    #35
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    guinnessdrinker wrote: »
    Where did you hear this?

    It's well-known. the retirement package for most categories of PS employee who have completed 40 years of service is 150% of final pay and a pension of half of final pay.

    I am told (but haven't verified it) that when the scheme was introduced a choice was offered between the arrangement summarised above and a pension of two-thirds of final pay. Given life expectancies at the time, the choice of the lump sum and lower pension was the better one.


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    #36
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    I just saw this headline on a news-stand and thought “Wow… that means absolutely nothing.”
    mathie wrote: »
    "300 civil servants are paid more than €165,000 per year"

    And how many private sector workers earn more than 165K a year?
    I see you’re new to the public servant-bashing game.
    delop wrote: »
    IMO all CS & PS contracts should be canceled...
    Ah yes, because obviously all public servants are overpaid and are terrible at their jobs. Of course, everyone in the private sector is paid exactly what they deserve and they got where they are today purely on merit.


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    #37
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I see. You prefer your even more useless comparison.

    There are far more than a handful of fat cats in the private sector. I'm not so intemperate as to suggest that all those at the top in the private sector are overpaid, but there are many thousands in the private sector earning seriously large amounts on the scale you complain about when they are paid in the public sector.

    The MAJORITY of people who CREATE employment in this country are extremely hard working people who are very moderately paid. We can argue all day here over a form of words, but they are not fat cat bankers. I know many entrepreneurs in my line of work, I'm an entrepreneur myself and it is very rare that I see someone paying themselves 165K a year or anywhere even remotely close to it.


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    #38
    gazzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,049 ✭✭✭gazzer


    Why is this such a big story in the papers? There are almost 40,000 people in the civil service and so less that 1% of them earn this figure. That means that 99% of the CS DO NOT earn that figure. Approx 60% of the CS are in the clerical grade so therefore earn below the average industrial wage. Funny that that wasnt a headline in the paper.

    Maybe the papers would be better served in highlighting the fact that temporary staff in the Public Service have to pay the pension levy even though they will never get a pension from the Public Service.


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    #39
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I see. You prefer your even more useless comparison.

    There are far more than a handful of fat cats in the private sector. I'm not so intemperate as to suggest that all those at the top in the private sector are overpaid, but there are many thousands in the private sector earning seriously large amounts on the scale you complain about when they are paid in the public sector.

    If I start up a business and am lucky enough to be able to pay myself 200K a year after I've toiled with the business, if I've risked my own money to bring that situation about and have basically invested in myself so that my innovation, experience and pure hard work produces me a business that can afford to pay me 200K a year, that fact has absolutely nothing to do with any PS worker who might feel that they are entitled to "benchmark" their own income to mine.

    If you want to earn 200K a year, go out and start up a business and deal with the CRO, Revenue, Co. Councils and a hundred PS muppets who are going to be pulling you backwards before you even get out of the trap!

    There is a world of difference between the effort required to start up a successful business in Ireland or anywhere for that matter, and the effort required to find a cushy PS number once you are in the system.

    If you want to be well paid, then be prepared to take on risk and sacrifice. If risk and sacrifice doesn't sit well with you, then by all means take a PS job, but please don't expect to be earning outrageous salaries such as 150K a year for doing absolutely sweet f*ck all and spending a whole lifetime hiding behind your union while opposing any and all change!


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    #40
    guinnessdrinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭guinnessdrinker


    gazzer wrote: »
    Maybe the papers would be better served in highlighting the fact that temporary staff in the Public Service have to pay the pension levy even though they will never get a pension from the Public Service.

    If this is true they should be entitled to get that money back.


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    #41
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    ... If you want to be well paid, then be prepared to take on risk and sacrifice. If risk and sacrifice doesn't sit well with you, then by all means take a PS job, but please don't expect to be earning outrageous salaries such as 150K a year for doing absolutely sweet f*ck all and spending a whole lifetime hiding behind your union while opposing any and all change!

    I'll ignore the fact that you lace almost every remark you make about the public service with pejorative epithets, and simply point out that you appear to know little about the workload of those at the top level in the public service.


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    #42
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    gazzer wrote: »
    Why is this such a big story in the papers?

    I guess its because those 300 people are entitled to higher government pensions than many other Prime Ministers get paid around the world...that is how much we as a country have lost control of public spending. Oh, and don't forget that 250K odd "gratuity" lump sum on top of the 82.5K a year pension. The P.M. of New Zealand ( a country not unlike Ireland in terms of population size ) is only paid the equivalent of 80 something k a year during his / her term as prime minister, not his / her retirement !


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    #43
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    the workload of those at the top level in the public service.

    I know people at all levels in the public service, and they all - without exception - are not exactly stressed out compared to their private sector counterparts. Why would they be, with secure employment, better pensions, generally better pay, flexitime, plenty of days off ( more than most private sector people I know ) , plenty of tea + coffee breaks etc. No comparison.


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    #44
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I know people at all levels in the public service, and they all - without exception - are not exactly stressed out compared to their private sector counterparts. Why would they be, with secure employment, better pensions, generally better pay, flexitime, plenty of days off ( more than most private sector people I know ) , plenty of tea + coffee breaks etc. No comparison.

    in my private sevtor job i could make a cup of tea whenever i wanted. in my PS job i have to pay one euro for a cup of tea or provide my own tea bags and milk at my desk, which is not the end of the world imo, but why bring it up in the first place?


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    #45
    guinnessdrinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭guinnessdrinker


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I know people at all levels in the public service, and they all - without exception - are not exactly stressed out compared to their private sector counterparts. Why would they be, with secure employment, better pensions, generally better pay, flexitime, plenty of days off ( more than most private sector people I know ) , plenty of tea + coffee breaks etc. No comparison.

    Jimmmy, you started this thread saying 300 civil servants are paid more than €165,000 per year. Now you are complaining about all civil servants. What is your argument? Are you lumping all civil servants together or distingushing between the different types of civil servants?


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    #46
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    kceire wrote: »
    in my private sevtor job i could make a cup of tea whenever i wanted. in my PS job i have to pay one euro for a cup of tea or provide my own tea bags and milk at my desk, which is not the end of the world imo, but why bring it up in the first place?
    Because the CS is "known" for its coffee/tea breaks in the morning/afternoon. I know people who abuse the priviledge and vanish for 30 mins - ain't something I'd believe would be tolerated in the private sector. To be fair the majority just take the allocated 15 mins but is seen as half an hour of the day that you're clocked in and paid for. Now it happens in the private sector too and doesn't happen in all the public sector but I'd hazard a guess it's more common in the public sector (or, more particularly, the civil service).


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    #47
    Celticfire
    Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    Cardinal Blue wrote: »
    As far as i know gratuity is usually 1.5 times your wages(based on service).
    A lump sum of up to €247500 tax payers money,very nice!.Were do I sign up?.


    http://www.publicjobs.ie/


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    #48
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I know people at all levels in the public service, and they all - without exception - are not exactly stressed out compared to their private sector counterparts. Why would they be, with secure employment, better pensions, generally better pay, flexitime, plenty of days off ( more than most private sector people I know ) , plenty of tea + coffee breaks etc. No comparison.

    You're making it up again. Either that, or the people you know in the public service are an oddly unrepresentative sample. And, unsurprisingly, you say nothing that indicates that you know anything about their workload.

    I do not say that everything about the public sector is good. But it is far from being as bad as you characterise it. And those in senior positions, with very few exceptions, do have to work hard for their money. That includes putting in a lot of hours, far more than the nominal working week, and usually not being in a position to take all the annual leave permitted.


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    #49
    Fergus08
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭Fergus08


    What is the point of this thread?? People in top public sector jobs get paid a reasonably, for the public sector high salary. Big deal! So what!

    The public-sector bashers need to face up to the fact that The-Public-Sector-Are-Keeping-This-Country-Going!! Public sector workers, who are almost to a man and woman pay income income (unlike the 800,000 odd low paid private sector workers) out of all proportion to the their percentage of the workforce.

    The so-called entrepreneurs who claim every last penny they spend as company expenses and then (the martyrs!) pay themselve ONLY 30k are, in many instances, dependent on public sector contracts or business that originated in the public sector. Or on spending by public sector workers, or on spending by social welfare receipients etc, etc. I work in the public sector in purchasing. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, we buy comes from the private sector - I'm talking millions. So, to listen to jumped up 'entrepreneurs', most of who are as dependent on state expenditure as people on social welfare, makes me angry. But, I suppose, some people feel the need to growl at the hand that feeds them. Private sector contractors get a VERY easy ride from the public sector: nice margins, public sector overseers who aren't too pushy, none too onerous conditions etc, etc.

    Much of the public sector bashing you see on boards.ie is SO deluded, ill-informed and dangerous.

    And, YES!, when we're bailing out the banks and the developers (who ARE the private sector in Ireland) to the extent that the survival of the state is at stake, the salaries of public servants are well down the list of priorities and worries. But again, prejudice is easy to indulge in than rational thought and fair-minded analysis. There is scope for reform in the public sector but if you think you're going to get it ridiculing and harassing public sectors then you are truly, sadly deluded. Rant over!


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    #50
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Fergus08 wrote: »
    The public-sector bashers need to face up to the fact that The-Public-Sector-Are-Keeping-This-Country-Going!! Public sector workers, who are almost to a man and woman pay income income (unlike the 800,000 odd low paid private sector workers) out of all proportion to the their percentage of the workforce.
    Firstly: LOL.

    Secondly: Aren't you inadvertently admitting that public sector workers are being very well paid compared to private-sector workers by virtue of the fact they're paying more income tax?

    You are also aware of how the public sector worker is paid right? They're generally, from a budget perspective, a net loss to the government. Now that's okay theoretically as they're there to provide a public service - hence being in the... public service. However, it'd be wrong to claim that this expenditure is what's keeping the economy going. It's laughable, not laudable, to infer the PS is "the hand that feeds them" - it's only true in the case of some companies. Many do not have contracts with the State or have diverse interests.
    Private sector contractors get a VERY easy ride from the public sector: nice margins, public sector overseers who aren't too pushy, none too onerous conditions etc, etc.
    Evidence for this? Statistics?
    Much of the public sector bashing you see on boards.ie is SO deluded, ill-informed and dangerous.
    Dangerous? We're not exactly talking about handling nuclear waste here. There's some that are ill informed but there's others who are informed but you just fundamentally disagree with.
    the salaries of public servants are well down the list of priorities and worries. But again, prejudice is easy to indulge in than rational thought and fair-minded analysis.
    Well they shouldn't be well done on the list of priorities though. The bill is circa 20bn. As we reduce income via taxes, we've less money to fund this c. 20bn so therefore we need to lower the 20bn bill.
    The bailout money in theory could result in profit so it's not quite fair to compare (although the potential for profit is questionable).
    There is scope for reform in the public sector but if you think you're going to get it ridiculing and harassing public sectors then you are truly, sadly deluded. Rant over!
    Actually most posters here are engaged in debate, rather than ridicule. We need to debate these costing issues before the imbalance of income vs. outgoings on issues like PS/CS wage bills tips us the scales too far and plunges us into a very dark place.


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    #51
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Sleepy wrote: »
    300 odd quangos would obviously require 300 odd 'top men' to do... well I'm not sure what most of them actually do...

    Then they aren't civil servants, are they?

    This refers to senior politicians, judges and the heads of government departments. All of whose names are in the public domain.

    There are more than 300 of the 400,000 public servants (inclusive of civil servants) on 165k a year. Then we are into hospital consultants etc.


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    #52
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    What is the point of this thread?? People in top public sector jobs get paid a reasonably, for the public sector high salary. Big deal! So what!
    It's our money? They don't do all that much for what they're paid? They don't deserve the money they're on?


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    #53
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Cardinal Blue wrote: »
    As far as i know gratuity is usually 1.5 times your wages(based on service).
    A lump sum of up to €247500 tax payers money,very nice!.Were do I sign up?.


    the question isn't where do you sign up today when things are bad, its why didn't you sign up 10 years ago when things were good.

    You would swear the public sector don't pay PRSI the way the begrudgers bang on.


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    #54
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    If you were in the private sector, you'd be seriously worried about losing your job right now, if you haven't already and I imagine you'd be taking a hefty wage cut to counteract any possibility of that. The whole system is f*cked when it comes to PS pensions for a start. Someone retiring on 80K a year and then before that kicks in, a massive tax free lump sum/handshake!?!?! Who's paying for it???

    Argh.

    If you were earning the private sector equivalent of those civil servants you would not be fearing for your job unless you had run a company into the ground, because those people are at the top of the tree, and are not likely to lose their job.

    There are plenty of reasons to dislike how the civil service is run, but the fair remuneration of the highest echelons is just insanity.


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    #55
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    guinnessdrinker wrote: »
    Jimmmy, you started this thread saying 300 civil servants are paid more than €165,000 per year. Now you are complaining about all civil servants. What is your argument? Are you lumping all civil servants together or distingushing between the different types of civil servants?

    It's Jimmmy. It's the public service. His outrage has been benchmarked from 49k up to 165k.

    Carry on.


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    #56
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Argh.

    If you were earning the private sector equivalent of those civil servants you would not be fearing for your job unless you had run a company into the ground, because those people are at the top of the tree, and are not likely to lose their job.

    There are plenty of reasons to dislike how the civil service is run, but the fair remuneration of the highest echelons is just insanity.
    It's not fair, is it? Last salary survey I saw before this kicked off (Manpower) put the average salary of a managing director in Dublin at 120,000EUR PA.


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    #57
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    the question isn't where do you sign up today when things are bad, its why didn't you sign up 10 years ago when things were good.

    Because not all 2 million plus workers in the country can get overpaid paid secure jobs in the public service with great pensions, with everyone getting great money from the government. Someone has to actually try to pay money to the government / earn money for the country , not just get paid by the govt.


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    #58
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    ... Someone has to actually try to pay money to the government / earn money for the country , not just get paid by the govt.

    Nobody I know in the private sector is motivated by an ambition to earn money for the country; they generally want to earn money for themselves.


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    #59
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Nobody I know in the private sector is motivated by an ambition to earn money for the country; they generally want to earn money for themselves.
    Of course but, in general, a PS/CS worker is a net loss to the government - they provide income tax, etc. but that's less than the amount of money the government spends on them. Now their remit isn't necessarily to provide profit but instead to provide a service but nonetheless it's a net financial loss for the large part (excepting those who do bring in revenue such as... Revenue).

    Private sector workers, on the other hand, are primarily a net gain as they bring in income tax, prsi, health levies, etc. Therefore we need them to make up the deficit provided by the public sector.

    I imagine that's the point jimmy is trying to put across.


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    #60
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    To be fair, i dont thing ANYONE here can claim honestly that there is not alot wrong with the Civil Service! Alot of the posts here are music to my ears! The longer things are left untouched here with regards to government spending, the sooner things are going to explode! Come December they are not going to be able to present a wishy washy budget like they did in April, they will have to start sorting out serious issues they never wanted to address. Ahern that chancer is 10x more culpable than Cowen in this BTW!


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    #61
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It was reported on RTE radio this morning that over 300 civil servants "earn " over € 165,000.00 per year....
    It would be interesting to find out the number of civil servants further down this colossal pyramid eg those earning between 120,000 and 165,000 per year ?
    Ah jimmmy, there you go again, rushing in, not checking your facts.

    You've got to be very careful reading anything in the Irish Independent. It's well-known for its sloppy journalism.

    In this case the Indo, confuses civil servants and public servants. The high earners are not just Civil Servants but are include Public Servants. This detail is important as it puts the figure of 300 into context. Less than 0.1% of the public sector.


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