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300 civil servants are paid more than €165,000 per year
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Indeed. Public sector are the only ones to pay all three but are the only ones to get their state pension paid (for for seperately from their PRSI contributions) deducted from their civil service pension.
Private sector get their private pension plus their state pension
Actually, if you go to the Pensions Board site and calculate your pension figures, they actually deduct the State pension too. So, if it takes 30% of my wages to get a pension of €400 a week, the State Pension is €215 of that! So, in a way, it's calculated the same.Agreed. But the public sector enable and support the private sector, we are not enemies. No matter what IBEC want you to believe.
Indeed, don't know where this came from and in fairness I don't think even IBEC would suggest that!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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OK, did a quick calculation on the Pension Board site.
To get a private pension of €9,624 (Weyhey) would cost me 13% of my wage. (about 10% after tax & PRSI deductions)
The State pension is added on, of €11,976.
So to get a whopping €21,600, I would pay 21.5%. Not far of the new Public service total pension deductions.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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I'm not sure if many in the private sector would share my view, but ( within reason ) I don't particularly care what individual public servants earn, I care about their performance.
I want to see the people responsible for voting machines, FAS, financial services regulation and the other various scandals losing their jobs.
In the back of mind somewhere, I imagine that the people responsible for the voting machine fiasco are now planning a new scheme involving hover cars ( electric or hydrogen powered to keep the Greens happy ).
The private sector would like these people fired. The vast majority public sector probably wants the same. Accountability will reduce the backlash against the public sector.
I really don't think this is an extreme view.0 -
Actually, if you go to the Pensions Board site and calculate your pension figures, they actually deduct the State pension too. So, if it takes 30% of my wages to get a pension of €400 a week, the State Pension is €215 of that! So, in a way, it's calculated the same.
Quick calculation (correct me if I'm wrong) puts you at 70k per year, private sector would laugh public complaints out at that level.Indeed, don't know where this came from and in fairness I don't think even IBEC would suggest that!
About September of last year Turlough and Brian came out saying public sector pay was too high, the country couldn't afford it and there should be a review process.
Four months later it was decided that public sector pay was too high, the country couldn't afford it and there should be a public sector pension levy.
Ho hum, qu'elle surprise, Brian rimmed Turlough.
And here we are in our third budget since June 2008 and the country is still fncked beyond belief.
Thank God the smart FF blokes are in charge instead of those other idiots.0 -
So sacking loads of public servants is going to help the economy how?
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Well, it'll solve everything, won't it :rolleyes:0
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Just a few facts.
Inthe HSE, in 05 we had 5 grade 8s in the country, geting paid 80 to 120000 pa, now we have 850 or more. Can anyone see the improvemnt in our health system?? no!
To get paid 165000, thats the grade of CEO of a hospital. In fairness, they do take a lot of crap, and one would hope they were good at decisin making and managing the finances.
The pension levy is not for the pension i will get when i retire, it is to recapitalise the banks. It is actually a pay cut in the form of a levy. The total salary at the months end is levied, so if i am on call in theatre for the night for the princely sum of 13 euro before all my taxes and levies, i get about 8 euro tops for a night on call. Match that with guys on call for eircom, who could make 3grand on call for the month. It used to make my blood boil, when i raced around keeping people alive as they bled to death on the table, and a guy sitting at home could earn that.
WE were called the greedy nurses in 99, and the big thing here guys is that if the hse now culls nurses and clinical staff, you will need your VHI cos you will not get into a public hospital for love nor money. Mind you it cant be done at the moment unless you are really ill. But no one wanted to hear this stuff 2 yrs agl when we talked about it cos the irish public was thinking "Sure i'm grand" but never realisning as you drankd your cocktails in cafe en seine, that you would someday need us wasters of nurses and doctors, physios etc. Some of you guys say that you do not mean us, but thats like saying i dont hate all english people, just those in england!
The thing is that you make hay while the sun shines, and th private sector did that. no one was watchin the ball and yes we got benchmarked without the most important part which was to ensure that we were productive, and if not you were u not get a rise. However, as nurses, i htink we ar the hardest on our trainees, alwasy have been, we eat our young. WE lost nurses to abroad in 99 cos we were paid rubbish.
Our nurses pay was bad, we lost vast numbers of experienced staff nurses who are like gold dust ever since. OF course i am now a manager, adn i could not live on a staff nurse salary, so at least i get paid more for the responsilibity i have.
AS for all the sniping, well its easy to shoot the fish in a barrell at the minute. But we paid a lot of money to a financial regulator and bankers who showed no prudence in the way they lend money, but its now a matter to see who is going to get on the lifeboat like on the titanic, you can be sure its not us eejits on the lower than 50 grand salaries, but those who are mystical and get paid so many times more my salary in a busy theatre. For those who snipe at my salary, which is now well taxed, hope you do not ever need a nurses help intheatre, a few kind words etc, as you lie frightened out of your mind.
AS for us being a dead loss to the state, you forget that our pay goes directly back into the economy, in rent, mortgage, car insurance, food, petrol, car tax etc etc etc. so its my tax thats keeping us going too.
As for comparing other countries, new zealand has very low salaries, but its cheap to live there. you all know thihs city is as expenxive as new york, and to shop here is more expenxive.
Enought of my rant, but stop whining jimmy and ixol0 -
I'm not sure if many in the private sector would share my view, but ( within reason ) I don't particularly care what individual public servants earn, I care about their performance.
I want to see the people responsible for voting machines, FAS, financial services regulation and the other various scandals losing their jobs.
In the back of mind somewhere, I imagine that the people responsible for the voting machine fiasco are now planning a new scheme involving hover cars ( electric or hydrogen powered to keep the Greens happy ).
The private sector would like these people fired. The vast majority public sector probably wants the same. Accountability will reduce the backlash against the public sector.
I really don't think this is an extreme view.
I would agree with you. Few people are as frustrated at times with the Public Sector as the Public Sector themselves. Much greater public accountability and transparency is called for and reform would be welcomed, imo, by the vast majority.
Unfortunately, there has been a tirade of abuse against workers in the Public Sector by those who are understandably angry about the current economic situation . Criticism is valid, but abuse never is. Getting unfairly bashed for being fortunate enough to work in the Public Service is a horrible feeling. It forces you to defend you ground and often that can appear like you are defending the entire system. The only comparison I could make is how sometimes you might end up explaining to an English friend that the old IRA were an honorable bunch and you consider them heroes - but it ends up becoming an discussion on the modern IRA and by giving context to their actions you end up sounding like a sympathizer.
Anyways I suggest in future posters should simply ignore some of the hotter heads who weigh in on this debate and only engage with the more reasoned posters. The public and privater sector have a symbiotic relationship. We can't have one without the other (North Korea aside) and the health of one feeds into the other.0 -
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When times were good, nobody gave a rat's ass what people in the public service were earning. Now with the pension levy and the income levies, public servants have taken pay cuts (pension levy is a pay cut under a different title) but still the masses are bleating on and on. The way some posters on this board go on, they won't be happy until all public servants (a.k.a. leeches) are earning 15k a year or sacked.
It's all well and good to bellyache about the people who work in the public service, most of whom will never get to the higher echelons like the people on +165k but don't forget the reasons behind why they ended up with the wages in the first place.0 -
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I'm not sure if many in the private sector would share my view, but ( within reason ) I don't particularly care what individual public servants earn, I care about their performance.
I want to see the people responsible for voting machines, FAS, financial services regulation and the other various scandals losing their jobs.
Exactly. The scandal is that the Financial Regulator did not do his job, not what he was paid. Imagine if we were now saying that Ireland had been saved from the worst of the recession because of effective regulation!
Similarly benchmarking wasn't an unreasonable concept, but like so much it was the use of reasonable concept to cover something that was quite different, the payment of high increases to the sectors where unions were strongest without any real interest in productivity, willingness to change or anything else.Few people are as frustrated at times with the Public Sector as the Public Sector themselves. Much greater public accountability and transparency is called for and reform would be welcomed, imo, by the vast majority.
Real reform would be welcome, but as usual all you get are unprincipled across the board cutbacks.0 -
Yes. Just watch what will happen in the HSE.0
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I'm not sure if many in the private sector would share my view, but ( within reason ) I don't particularly care what individual public servants earn, I care about their performance.
That's fair (including the "within reason" bit; there are a few high salaries that might be difficult to justify).I want to see the people responsible for voting machines, FAS, financial services regulation and the other various scandals losing their jobs.
In the back of mind somewhere, I imagine that the people responsible for the voting machine fiasco are now planning a new scheme involving hover cars ( electric or hydrogen powered to keep the Greens happy ).
Some of the bad schemes were driven by politicians, not by public service staff. That, I understand, applies particularly to E-voting where ministers did not take advice given by civil servants.
On the other hand, some people in the public service have got things very wrong, and there is a custom of arranging what might be called assisted exit. There might be too strong a tradition of looking after one's own people.The private sector would like these people fired. The vast majority public sector probably wants the same.
Yes, there are cases where people in the public service should be fired. I don't think they are always the high-profile cases where the media drum up the mob.
Often, however, it might be fairer to tell people to change what they do or how they do it. It's not always the case when something goes wrong that it is the fault of some individual. We have to accept that sometimes **** happens (edit: as happened with this sentence because of the operation of the censor-bot -- but I am sure you can fill in a suitable word).Accountability will reduce the backlash against the public sector.
No disagreement there.
But, even more than accountability, some culture change is needed. The FAS problems arose because of the culture within the organisation; similarly, the Financial Regulator's famously light touch approach was an expression of a mindset that had developed (reflecting a political culture shaped by Charlie McCreevy). There are many areas that are not so much in the public eye where the way of doing things might usefully be re-thought.I really don't think this is an extreme view.
Nor do I.0 -
Quick calculation (correct me if I'm wrong) puts you at 70k per year, private sector would laugh public complaints out at that level.
Half that and you wouldn't be far of and I think I'm reasonably paid, with no pension or other perks. Interesting you bring up the 70k on a thread about over 165k.dresden8 wrote:About September of last year Turlough and Brian came out saying public sector pay was too high, the country couldn't afford it and there should be a review process.
Four months later it was decided that public sector pay was too high, the country couldn't afford it and there should be a public sector pension levy.
Ho hum, qu'elle surprise, Brian rimmed Turlough.
In fairness, expenditure stayed relatively stable during Jan/Feb 09, despite massive SW extra expenditure. So yes, cringes, Brian was right. Despite the massive increase in Unemployment, Brian kept expenditure level. Something lost in the lets slate FF no matter what threads on here.
Forget Turlough, would you have preferred Public spending to be higher?dresden8 wrote:And here we are in our third budget since June 2008 and the country is still fncked beyond belief.
Thank God the smart FF blokes are in charge instead of those other idiots.
But, expenditure has stayed stable, despite a massive increase in SW. Don't believe everything the Media and Unions tell ya. There are encouraging signs out there.Why do you think loads of public servants should be fired?
If you think loads are fecking up, yes? Costs about €20,000 per Unemployed person, so yes, we'll save in the long run.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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I never said that loads are fecking up. I believe that the small percentage that do screw-up, underperform or are otherwise incapable are giving the majority a bad name.
Do you really think that those who screw-up should be protected to reduce costs related to unemployment?If you think loads are fecking up, yes? Costs about €20,000 per Unemployed person, so yes, we'll save in the long run.0 -
Just a few facts.
Inthe HSE, in 05 we had 5 grade 8s in the country, geting paid 80 to 120000 pa, now we have 850 or more. Can anyone see the improvemnt in our health system?? no!
To get paid 165000, thats the grade of CEO of a hospital. In fairness, they do take a lot of crap, and one would hope they were good at decisin making and managing the finances.
The pension levy is not for the pension i will get when i retire, it is to recapitalise the banks. It is actually a pay cut in the form of a levy.
Nope, it pays for the highering current pension bill, about 11/12% of current Public service pay.dustbabe wrote:The total salary at the months end is levied, so if i am on call in theatre for the night for the princely sum of 13 euro before all my taxes and levies, i get about 8 euro tops for a night on call. Match that with guys on call for eircom, who could make 3grand on call for the month. It used to make my blood boil, when i raced around keeping people alive as they bled to death on the table, and a guy sitting at home could earn that.
I take it you have figures to back this up on Eircom? I'd well believe Eircom and the ESB get this, Unions huh! How many times on average you get called out?dustbabe wrote:WE were called the greedy nurses in 99, and the big thing here guys is that if the hse now culls nurses and clinical staff, you will need your VHI cos you will not get into a public hospital for love nor money. Mind you it cant be done at the moment unless you are really ill. But no one wanted to hear this stuff 2 yrs agl when we talked about it cos the irish public was thinking "Sure i'm grand" but never realisning as you drankd your cocktails in cafe en seine, that you would someday need us wasters of nurses and doctors, physios etc. Some of you guys say that you do not mean us, but thats like saying i dont hate all english people, just those in england!
This is why benchmarking annoys me. It failed nurses, but lined the pockets of others. Such a wasted opportunity to do good.dustbabe wrote:The thing is that you make hay while the sun shines, and th private sector did that. no one was watchin the ball and yes we got benchmarked without the most important part which was to ensure that we were productive, and if not you were u not get a rise. However, as nurses, i htink we ar the hardest on our trainees, alwasy have been, we eat our young. WE lost nurses to abroad in 99 cos we were paid rubbish.
Our nurses pay was bad, we lost vast numbers of experienced staff nurses who are like gold dust ever since. OF course i am now a manager, adn i could not live on a staff nurse salary, so at least i get paid more for the responsilibity i have.
Ah, but is it a fair wage for a 22/23 yr old nurse?dustbabe wrote:AS for us being a dead loss to the state, you forget that our pay goes directly back into the economy, in rent, mortgage, car insurance, food, petrol, car tax etc etc etc. so its my tax thats keeping us going too.
As for comparing other countries, new zealand has very low salaries, but its cheap to live there. you all know thihs city is as expenxive as new york, and to shop here is more expenxive.
Enought of my rant, but stop whining jimmy and ixol
And you need a thriving private sector to get pay rises, well you did get massive revenues, but unions let you down.When times were good, nobody gave a rat's ass what people in the public service were earning. Now with the pension levy and the income levies, public servants have taken pay cuts (pension levy is a pay cut under a different title) but still the masses are bleating on and on. The way some posters on this board go on, they won't be happy until all public servants (a.k.a. leeches) are earning 15k a year or sacked.
It's all well and good to bellyache about the people who work in the public service, most of whom will never get to the higher echelons like the people on +165k but don't forget the reasons behind why they ended up with the wages in the first place.
They did Firetrap, they did. Bit like the ones warning about the property slump, twas ignored. The good times will always roll, sure Ireland is different, we can afford this!
The pension levy is over and done with. Time to move on. I think Public service workers now pay a decent amount.Unfortunately, at the very time when things were good we should have really used taxes as a method to slow up our inflation.
Indeed, 20/20 vision. Didn't see too many marches when the Unions were demanding tax cuts and no tax or PRSI on minimum wage.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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I never said that loads are fecking up. I believe that the small percentage that do screw-up, underperform or are otherwise incapable are giving the majority a bad name.
Do you really think that those who screw-up should be protected to reduce costs related to unemployment?
Sorry, Should be really aimed at Firetrap. It's the way you quote replies I think!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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If the Indo was interested in fair and balanced reporting, they would have waited until the 08 figures were published. But, do bear in mind that the figures relate solely to PAYE workers and exclude the earnings of the self-employed.I wonder how many of them where in construction companies ir heavily reliant on construction?
The figures for 08 will make interesting reading.
But, we know that the Indo is pushing its own agenda, so surprise here.0 -
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Well, this is a big general argument over public sector pay. I personally know of a guy in one of our venerable state agencies who is a finance manager. He got promoted (assistant principal or something like that?) without his job description changing, and is on 75k a year. As a finance manager.Half that and you wouldn't be far of and I think I'm reasonably paid, with no pension or other perks. Interesting you bring up the 70k on a thread about over 165k.
According to Manpower Ireland, the typical private sector finance manager earns 55-65k PA in Dublin, 45-55 for the rest of the country.0 -
Well, this is a big general argument over public sector pay. I personally know of a guy in one of our venerable state agencies who is a finance manager. He got promoted (assistant principal or something like that?) without his job description changing, and is on 75k a year. As a finance manager.
According to Manpower Ireland, the typical private sector finance manager earns 55-65k PA in Dublin, 45-55 for the rest of the country.
I could probably find a private sector finance manager who earns more than that (I have two people in mind whose lifestyles suggest to me that they are very well paid, working in companies that are very successful). An individual case here or there proves nothing about the general situation.0 -
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Yeah, in very successful companies. The more successful the company, the more wealth it creates. Should we stifle and benchmark successful companies to make the state agencies feel better that they're not getting paid the same amount as highly successful business?P. Breathnach wrote: »I could probably find a private sector finance manager who earns more than that (I have two people in mind whose lifestyles suggest to me that they are very well paid, working in companies that are very successful). An individual case here or there proves nothing about the general situation.
Also, you can take individual examples from the PS as it's standardized.
75k is far too much for a finance manager. And in many, many, many surveys we've seen we've been shown time and time again that public sector people get paid more, on average, for the jobs that they do versus their private sector companions.
That's the average, and it depends, what is your friend responsible for? In the context of Mr 75k A Year he manages finance in an organisation sub 100 people with a finance department of 4 including himself, so he manages 3.It seems high, I know one in private industry earning in the 30,000s, and glad to have a job.0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »If the Indo was interested in fair and balanced reporting, they would have waited until the 08 figures were published. But, do bear in mind that the figures relate solely to PAYE workers and exclude the earnings of the self-employed.
But, we know that the Indo is pushing its own agenda, so surprise here.
Huh?
They had the latest available figures I presume.
Still, would you accept it's likely a lot of those 3% on over €100,000 would be in construction or property related careers? Of course the others would still be paying the additional levies and will probably affected by the recession like anybody.
Self employed? I'm sure they are all doing just great at the minute, no decrease in profits whatsoever?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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So why did they publish only the public sector figures and not the top 300 private sector salaries too?Huh?They had the latest available figures I presume.
I have no hard information about this (nor do you), we'll probably have to wait for the Irish Times to do a proper story based on journalistic disipline. But remember we're talking salaries. The really big earners in construction and property were probably not salaried.Still, would you accept it's likely a lot of those 3% on over €100,000 would be in construction or property related careers?
But, the really big point is that the Indo's story is not balanced.0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »So why did they publish only the public sector figures and not the top 300 private sector salaries too?
Because it's about the Public sector, not the Private. It isn't a direct comparison, nor should it be!NewDubliner wrote:I have no hard information about this (nor do you), we'll probably have to wait for the Irish Times to do a proper story based on journalistic disipline. But remember we're talking salaries. The really big earners in construction and property were probably not salaried.
But, the really big point is that the Indo's story is not balanced.
Think you've answered my question. The really big earners in 05/06 where in property and I think we can all safely take an educated guess on what has happened their profits.
The Indo story may not be balanced, but the general point is worthy of discussion, without the typical benchmarking against the private sector.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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How can anyone say if somebody is overpaid without making a comparison? How can the scale of the large salaries in the public sector been seen in proper context when isolated from details of large salaries in the private sector?Because it's about the Public sector, not the Private. It isn't a direct comparison, nor should it be!
In fact I suggested the opposite, that the big money in property never did not go to salaried workers and that large salaries may well still exist in the private sector. But, neither you or I have the numbers.Think you've answered my question. The really big earners in 05/06 where in property and I think we can all safely take an educated guess on what has happened their profits.
Yes, the Indo's motives and misrepresentation of facts are worthy of discussion.The Indo story may not be balanced, but the general point is worthy of discussion, without the typical benchmarking against the private sector.0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »How can anyone say if somebody is overpaid without making a comparison? How can the scale of the large salaries in the public sector been seen in proper context when isolated from details of large salaries in the private sector?
OK, we do your comparison, 300 are on over €250,000, what then? What does that tell us?
Sean Dunne may have drawn wages of €1,000,000 that year, what relevance has that to the top 300 in the Public Service? This benchmarking thing is getting obsessive with public servants!
In fact, why didn't they compare the pay rates to the top 300 in the Public Service in the UK, Germany, the USA etc. like they do with politicians? Would that not be a more like for like comparison? No?NewDubliner wrote:In fact I suggested the opposite, that the big money in property never did not go to salaried workers and that large salaries may well still exist in the private sector. But, neither you or I have the numbers.
Great if they are still doing well, we should all be thankful for that, in fact, we need more of it to offset the huge rises in Unemployment, SW and huge drops in Tax Revenues.NewDubliner wrote:Yes, the Indo's motives and misrepresentation of facts are worthy of discussion.
Do you have some facts about their motives and how it affects their coverage?
Do you have a problem with the actual facts that they used?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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It would tell us that people in top jobs are well paid. It's not about benchmarking, it's about context.OK, we do your comparison, 300 are on over €250,000, what then? What does that tell us?
One can simply observe the bias in the coverage,the past history of the newspaper's owners and the demands it makes of government. These are matters of fact. Why do you think they published the article and why do you think it deliberately lacked balance?Do you have some facts about their motives and how it affects their coverage?
Yes, the selective use of facts and the lack of context.Do you have a problem with the actual facts that they used?0
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