300 civil servants are paid more than €165,000 per year

jimmmy

SkepticOne wrote: »

Don't understand your reasoning here. The public sector wages need to be at such a level to retain public sector staff and no higher. Given the current decimation of the private sector, you could probably lower wages in the public sector considerably and still retain staff. Doing so would help reduce the tax burden on the private sector and help with economic recovery.

Ultimately it is in the interests of the public sector to have a strong private sector. Unfortunately the government is too weak to make the necessary changes and it will probably fall to the IMF to do it for us.

Most sensible post in a long time.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Most sensible post in a long time.

Hi jimmmy, any luck justifying this thread's title?

Any money saved in further cutting PS wages will be given to the banks.

If the IMF come in, they'll privitise gas, electricity, water and roads at fire-sale prices and give the money to the banks. You'll have higher utiliity charges plus, universal road tolling and water charges as the heavily leveraged new owners milk the Irish consumer for all they can get.

The IMF is not your friend.

Hillel

NewDubliner wrote: »

Any money saved in further cutting PS wages will be given to the banks.

Why do you keep on and on talking about the banks???
If you believe that the banks, and their top management, and their employees, and their shareholders, and their friends in government and whatever else takes your fancy.... is so good, why don't you just leave the public sector and join a bank.:rolleyes:
Why not start your own bank, even, and get your share of all these handouts?;)

NewDubliner

Hillel wrote: »

Why do you keep on and on talking about the banks???

They're relevant & they're not good, that's the problem.

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

They're relevant & they're not good, that's the problem.

Not a very good answer NewDubliner. Please try harder to answer the questions. If you believe that the banks, and their top management, and their employees, and their shareholders, and their friends in government and whatever else takes your fancy.... is so good, why don't you just leave the public sector and join a bank.
Why not start your own bank, even, and get your share of all these handouts?

molloyjh

Yet another public sector bashing thread. I'm not surprised at who the OP is either. :rolleyes:

What I find most amusing/frustrating about these rants is that those that start them carry on as though every employee in every company in all of the private sector are currently under threat of job losses or wage cuts. I'll spell it out in caps for you guys so you get it this time:

THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

I know people in the private sector who have gotten wage increases this year. Yes, increases! And I know of numerous private companies that are hiring at the moment. The entire public sector is on a pay and recruitment freeze at present.

The fact of the matter is that there are numerous issues within the public sector that need to be tackled, but ridiculous, barely informed, bitter little rants like these are not helping. They are not constructive. Yet we can't escape them.

Jimmy and co love to throw around very specific sugggestions (like reducing all Gardai salaries by 30%) without thought or heed of all the necessary info required to make a balanced, fair and equitable decision. SkepticOne here talks about reducing public sector wages while missing NewDubliners point about the cost of living.

There's much more to consider here than the bottom line. And there's more to be done than just pointing fingers. We need reforms that will address the ineffeciencies and waste in the public sector. We probably do also need to look at the possibility of wage cuts as an overall part of this. We need some real leadership and balls from Government to get this done (which I don't see coming from any of our existing parties). We need to address the loopholes in our social welfare and taxation policies. We also need to start placing far more emphasis on regulating the private sector as a whole. It's a mammoth task that will take some time, but the sooner we get started the better. And we, the people of Ireland, need to cop ourselves on and start focusing on what we can do to make a difference rather than who we want to have shoulder the blame.

K-9

molloyjh wrote: »

What I find most amusing/frustrating about these rants is that those that start them carry on as though every employee in every company in all of the private sector are currently under threat of job losses or wage cuts. I'll spell it out in caps for you guys so you get it this time:

THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

I know people in the private sector who have gotten wage increases this year. Yes, increases! And I know of numerous private companies that are hiring at the moment. The entire public sector is on a pay and recruitment freeze at present.

It's amusing that some public sector employees keep on benchmarking to the private sector! The 2 are incomparable!

Not every private sector company giving increases has overpaid staff . If the employer is doing well, the staff will get increases, if it isn't, they don't.

It's similar to the Public Sector in that respect. The Govt., your employer was doing well, or so we thought, for the last few years and paid increases, now it's nearly bankrupt, people have to take cuts.

molloyjh

K-9 wrote: »

It's amusing that some public sector employees keep on benchmarking to the private sector! The 2 are incomparable!

Not every private sector company giving increases has overpaid staff . If the employer is doing well, the staff will get increases, if it isn't, they don't.

It's similar to the Public Sector in that respect. The Govt., your employer was doing well, or so we thought, for the last few years and paid increases, now it's nearly bankrupt, people have to take cuts.

Did I say cuts should not be made?

A certain level of benchmarking is required to derive a fair salary. Perhaps not the way it has been done to now, but you do need to ensure that 2 people doing the same work with the same qualifications etc are being paid at least roughly the same. Benchmarking against max and min figures is pointless, as is benchmarking used on its own as a form of remuneration calculation.

There is one fundamental difference between the private and public sector which rarely gets a look-in, and I'm not sure why. That is that demand for most public sector services remains relatively static while private sector markets can vary wildly depending on the industry. The nature of public sector work (not jobs, which is slightly different) is such that demand is not going to plummet the way it can in certain areas of the private sector and therefore the jobs are always going to be far more secure. Therefore taking the private sector as a whole and comparing it to the public sector as a whole is apples and oranges.

Listen, I've spent far more time in the private sector than the public. I can see first hand some of the issues in the public sector and am all on for major reforms and cuts, but only where it makes sense to do so. Too many people are just really keen to blanket cut this and that without taking into account all the relevant information. A lot of this seems to be driven by a need to blame someone else and pass the buck (in terms of responsibility and impact) onto others. We all need to take a hit, but we also need a certain level of service from the public sector. Instead of introducing reform to get better value for money along with cuts all the Government are succeeding in doing is reducing the capacity for an already ineffecient public sector to perform. Without these reforms the Government are forcing themselves to make harsher cuts than are absolutely nessecary and only digging a hole for us all for the future. And all the likes of jimmy can do is call for more cuts. That alone is only going to cause more problems.

jimmmy

molloyjh wrote: »

And all the likes of jimmy can do is call for more cuts. That alone is only going to cause more problems.

More than cuts need to be undertaken, but you are trying to deflect attention from the need for real cuts. "That alone is only going to cause more problems"

K-9

molloyjh wrote: »

Did I say cuts should not be made?

Never said you did. Just pointing out that we actually need the companies that are performing to countinue doing so and if that means wage increases, that's all well and good.

molloyjh

jimmmy wrote: »

More than cuts need to be undertaken, but you are trying to deflect attention from the need for real cuts. "That alone is only going to cause more problems"

Nonesense jimmy. I have always advocated cuts. Both my posts in this thread said as much. I just have no time for the type of blanket and random cuts you keep shouting for. I prefer the idea of making cuts that actually make sense.

K-9 wrote: »

Never said you did. Just pointing out that we actually need the companies that are performing to countinue doing so and if that means wage increases, that's all well and good.

And I agree. Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest I had a problem with the wage increases. I don't at all. I was just pointing out that the private sector isn't full of victims like some people would have us believe. There's an awful lot of "oh the poor private sector and the big bad public sector" rubbish. The private sector isn't one singular body and I wish people would stop talking about it like it is.

ardmacha

Too many people are just really keen to blanket cut this and that without taking into account all the relevant information.

Alas many posters here have no interest in relevant information, or indeed information of any sort.

It's amusing that some public sector employees keep on benchmarking to the private sector!

No doubt in response to calls for revised benchmarking.

NewDubliner

ardmacha wrote: »

Alas many posters here have no interest in relevant information, or indeed information of any sort.

I think the thread's title says it all. It's a misquote from a one of the worst newspapers in Europe.

K-9

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think the thread's title says it all. It's a misquote from a one of the worst newspapers in Europe.

I better not Godwin the thread.

molloyjh wrote:

The private sector isn't one singular body and I wish people would stop talking about it like it is.

Exactly, which is why the "sure not all in the private sector are taking cuts" is a ridiculous and not well thought out point.

ardmacha wrote:

No doubt in response to calls for revised benchmarking.

Probably. I look at it more from an economic point of view. When you are looking at tax revenues of €34 Billion or thereabouts for the forseseeable future and spending on Pay and SW alone is about €40 Billion, well.............

molloyjh

K-9 wrote: »

Exactly, which is why the "sure not all in the private sector are taking cuts" is a ridiculous and not well thought out point.

Sorry K-9 but you've obviously missed my point entirely. I was using that point to show that the private sector isn't a singular body, nothing else. I wasn't saying that it should impact changes in the public sector or anything, just that because of this fact the straight comparisons between private and public are meaningless. I wasn't voicing any opinion in the statement I made, just stating a couple of facts that point to how some other peoples positions are "not well thought out".

grahamo

So 0.001% of the public sector make 165k a year or more......How did this thread get to be 18 pages long??????

molloyjh

grahamo wrote: »

So 0.001% of the public sector make 165k a year or more......How did this thread get to be 18 pages long??????

It's actually of the civil service, which I think is about 35-40k strong. So it's more like between 0.75% and 0.85%. The title itself is meaningless, the only way we could possibly know how good, bad or indifferent it is would be by seeing the roles and the people who fill them (and how well they do it). That way we can get an idea if they are overpaid and to what tune they are. Of course that information isn't here. It's far too relevant.

NewDubliner

molloyjh wrote: »

It's actually of the civil service,

No, it's based on the whole public sector. The article in the Indo was a bit sloppy with the terminology, but the bulk of examples were not Civil Service.

jimmmy then misquoted the title of the original article when he set the title of the thread.

DapperGent

Jeez stop deliberately ruining the outrage porn.

K-9

molloyjh wrote: »

Sorry K-9 but you've obviously missed my point entirely. I was using that point to show that the private sector isn't a singular body, nothing else. I wasn't saying that it should impact changes in the public sector or anything, just that because of this fact the straight comparisons between private and public are meaningless. I wasn't voicing any opinion in the statement I made, just stating a couple of facts that point to how some other peoples positions are "not well thought out".

Indeed, I think we are saying the same thing, but coming at it from a different point of view.

NewDubliner wrote: »

No, it's based on the whole public sector. The article in the Indo was a bit sloppy with the terminology, but the bulk of examples were not Civil Service.

jimmmy then misquoted the title of the original article when he set the title of the thread.

IIRC, I think the Indo even mixed up the two terms. I know it maybe annoying for Civil Servants, but a lot of people just refer to the Public Service as the CS. I slip up the odd time too.