Your two cents, please

alegrabaroque

I just wanted to start a threat of possible solutions to our current issues. We are all here venting our anger or defending ourselves and I think we`re missing an opportunity to discuss the future.

I`ve said in other theads that there is no viable alternative to Fianna Fail other than Fine Gael, who I`m sure as the only back-up will be in by default in the next election. Do you see the posibility of another alternative?

Should we as a people start putting our words into action and do something before the current government makes things worse? Do we need to start educating and mobilizing people?

Is it really a good idea to let them keep going till we are completely bankrupt and let someone else "come in and fix things", as has been suggested in another thread?

Do you think the same personality types (not dis-similar to our current government) are now seeing their opportunity and will, like Barrack Obama, come to the forefront (puppet strings and all) to "save" the Irish public?
(have a feeling this is happening at the moment).
Could we make it less attractive/lucrative to those types?

r0nanf

alegrabaroque wrote: »

Do you think the same personality types (not dis-similar to our current government) are now seeing their opportunity and will, like Barrack Obama, come to the forefront (puppet strings and all) to "save" the Irish public?
(have a feeling this is happening at the moment).
Could we make it less attractive/lucrative to those types?

I don't get who you are referring to here. It sounds conspiracy-ish. And who is our Barack Obama? Leo Varadkar?

I do agree however that blustering away and venting on boards isn't really all that useful in the great scheme of things, and we would all be better off taking action. The simplest way would be to have everyone who is opposed to this government f*cking away one more hard earned cent taking to the streets to object to them staying in power and demanding a GE. Cross-industry & cross-union, everyone in, employed or not, homemaker or business director. The public.

As always though it involves people giving a toss beyond their doorstep, and as we can see by Michael Lowry's continual re-election they generally don't.

alegrabaroque

r0nanf wrote: »

I don't get who you are referring to here. It sounds conspiracy-ish. And who is our Barack Obama? Leo Varadkar?

I do agree however that blustering away and venting on boards isn't really all that useful in the great scheme of things, and we would all be better off taking action. The simplest way would be to have everyone who is opposed to this government f*cking away one more hard earned cent taking to the streets to object to them staying in power and demanding a GE. Cross-industry & cross-union, everyone in, employed or not, homemaker or business director. The public.

As always though it involves people giving a toss beyond their doorstep, and as we can see by Michael Lowry's continual re-election they generally don't.

I just think the same type of people go into politics and they are exploitive in nature. I do think someone will get the public stiring but it will probably be the wrong person...again.

Well it is our country and the Public Service work for us. I think people have lost sight of that or have never been told this. The first time I heard it I was amazed we`re just not trained to think that way. Thats why I mentioned education.

So why aren`t you organising something, I`d follow you? Your the right person, nows the right time. Carpe diem!

Fear is a great motivator.

Pride Fighter

alegrabaroque wrote: »

I just wanted to start a threat of possible solutions to our current issues. We are all here venting our anger or defending ourselves and I think we`re missing an opportunity to discuss the future.

I`ve said in other theads that there is no viable alternative to Fianna Fail other than Fine Gael, who I`m sure as the only back-up will be in by default in the next election. Do you see the posibility of another alternative?

Should we as a people start putting our words into action and do something before the current government makes things worse? Do we need to start educating and mobilizing people?

Is it really a good idea to let them keep going till we are completely bankrupt and let someone else "come in and fix things", as has been suggested in another thread?

Do you think the same personality types (not dis-similar to our current government) are now seeing their opportunity and will, like Barrack Obama, come to the forefront (puppet strings and all) to "save" the Irish public?
(have a feeling this is happening at the moment).
Could we make it less attractive/lucrative to those types?

Fine Gael are utter shite, replacing FF with FG is like replacing Podge with Rodge. Whenever FG have been in govt they have been utter cack. They trebled the Irish national debt in the 80's, wanted to tax childrens shoes as well:eek:. FG are the Irish tory party, FF are the Irish Republican Party (in the American sense of the word). Ireland needs a shift left. Labour are doing this but they need to move more to the left. Mainstream Irish political parties are utter crap, simple as.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Pride Fighter

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are wrong, but I forgive you. That is because you personally are further right than both parties. As a result you think parties not as far right as you are centrist. I disagree though.

Darragh29

alegrabaroque wrote: »

I just wanted to start a threat of possible solutions to our current issues. We are all here venting our anger or defending ourselves and I think we`re missing an opportunity to discuss the future.

I`ve said in other theads that there is no viable alternative to Fianna Fail other than Fine Gael, who I`m sure as the only back-up will be in by default in the next election. Do you see the posibility of another alternative?

Should we as a people start putting our words into action and do something before the current government makes things worse? Do we need to start educating and mobilizing people?

Is it really a good idea to let them keep going till we are completely bankrupt and let someone else "come in and fix things", as has been suggested in another thread?

Do you think the same personality types (not dis-similar to our current government) are now seeing their opportunity and will, like Barrack Obama, come to the forefront (puppet strings and all) to "save" the Irish public?
(have a feeling this is happening at the moment).
Could we make it less attractive/lucrative to those types?

I'll tell you what I think because I'm one of those you've refer to above who is actually relishing the day that all this is out of our hands and the IMF come in and sort all this sh*t out good and proper for us for once and for all.

As a nation, we put up with this sh*t!!! The direct correlation between sh*t/dumb voting decisions and poor governance has yet to be realised in this country.

I think there will be a kind of an awakening in this country when the sh*t really hits the fan and it hasn't yet I think... Then maybe we might start taking our right to vote more seriously...

Daithinski

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Fine Gael are utter shite, replacing FF with FG is like replacing Podge with Rodge.

Its funny cos its true.

Given the choice though I would boot out FF as a matter of principle for turning everything they touched into sh!te.

I think Labour should be given a shot.

I think that if Labour were in power, it would break up the unhealthy ties (golden circle) between the government, regulators, banking and construction sectors.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Darragh29

Daithinski wrote: »

Its funny cos its true.

Given the choice though I would boot out FF as a matter of principle for turning everything they touched into sh!te.

I think Labour should be given a shot.

I think that if Labour were in power, it would break up the unhealthy ties (golden circle) between the government, regulators, banking and construction sectors.

What about the unhealthy ties between the unions and the government. I can't see them being severed under a Labour government.

Pride Fighter

Darragh29 wrote: »

What about the unhealthy ties between the unions and the government. I can't see them being severed under a Labour government.

The ties are going to be severed pretty quickly. Labour receives 60k in funding from the Unions. Gilmore is going to cut this pretty soon, that will be the last link severed. Anyway Union members generally voted FF after the ridiculous benchmarking and giveaway budgets.

Frankie Lee

The only possibilty of Labour being the main party in government is if they go into coalition with the Greens, Sinn Fein and pick up whatever independents get in.

However the likelihood of the above happening is very slim.

alegrabaroque

Pride Fighter
ha ha ha podge and rodge ha ha .....
Will take a bet with you that Fine Gael will get in because the irish make "sh*t/dumb voting decisions" as Darragh29 points out. Well they`re not going to vote ff so whats not to scary to change - fg...wait and see. Enda Kenny`s makin the right noises even thou he smacks of fake, people won`t see through it because its safe and they don`t want to think to much.
Darragh29 I have a problem thou with this whole everything fallin to sh1t thing because there are weak people in this society who need protection what happens them? and what about the international embarrasment?

stepbar

I can't believe that people "actually" would like to see the IMF come in and rescue the country. As if that would really solve anything :rolleyes: FFS have we really got that backward thinking, first sign of trouble and we think that that IMF will solve all our woes. WE need to sort our own sh1te out, forget about waiting for other to sort the mess out.. If that requires a change of gov so be it. If you think things are bad just wait until the IMF come in. I hope that we will never have to depend on the IMF to come in.

Darragh29

stepbar wrote: »

I can't believe that people "actually" would like to see the IMF come in and rescue the country. As if that would really solve anything :rolleyes: FFS have we really got that backward thinking, first sign of trouble and we think that that IMF will solve all our woes. WE need to sort our own sh1te out, forget about waiting for other to sort the mess out.. If that requires a change of gov so be it. If you think things are bad just wait until the IMF come in. I hope that we will never have to depend on the IMF to come in.

And is there any evidence of that happening!?! No, let's keep horsing billions into the inefficient public sector and we'll bring the ceiling down upon ourselves soon enough and then we'll get it all sorted out for us right and proper.

stepbar

Darragh29 wrote: »

And is there any evidence of that happening!?! No, let's keep horsing billions into the inefficient public sector and we'll bring the ceiling down upon ourselves soon enough and then we'll get it all sorted out for us right and proper.

Shame on you for even bringing in the IMF to the debate. Have you no pride in your country at all? It's not possible to change whole departments over night. You would rather see access to essential front line services such as health being cut any further? It has to be done in a measured approach and fast. The only people who will suffer in a slash and burn approach are those who rely on these services the most. You can't just cut the supply lines off without providing viable alternatives (abeit not as good as the ones that exist) but at least they are alternatives. The ineffiencies have been let manufest over decades. Blaming the gov is the easy thing to do at the moment. We need solutions. We can lambast the Gov later and for the next hundred years for all I care. It's unrealistic to expect change in the short term as a result of these excesses. It has to be a medium - long term plan. Anything else will just add to the pain and misery that people at the fringes of society are experiencing at the moment. Nobody wants that. Nobody.

hallelujajordan

alegrabaroque wrote: »

So why aren`t you organising something, I`d follow you? Your the right person, nows the right time. Carpe diem!

Why aren't you ?

Senna

stepbar wrote: »

I can't believe that people "actually" would like to see the IMF come in and rescue the country.

Many see the IMF as being the only people that can make the tough decisions that need to be made. But really there's a whole lot more to it than that, but thats for another thread.

r0nanf

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'll tell you what I think because I'm one of those you've refer to above who is actually relishing the day that all this is out of our hands and the IMF come in and sort all this sh*t out good and proper for us for once and for all.

Genius plan, absolute genius - let's cripple generations of Irish by having the IMF come in to teach us a lesson. :rolleyes:

Why don't you just hand in your passport and give up if that's the case? I am a vehement critic of this government but praying that the IMF "sorts us out" shows a distinct lack of understanding what it is that the IMF does. Why don't we just have some VC company come in and sell off all our assets?

alegrabaroque

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Why aren't you ?

1) I`m a half african 28 year old female, how far exactly do you think I would get? Being a woman makes it hard enough but half african aswell....
2) I have no party affiliation and no funds to speak off
3) I`m not a great liar and lack diplomacy (I have to learn this)
4) I`m young and still being educated thats why I`m here actually and its working, I`m learning alot and questioning my own views. Not to give yis a swelled head or anything but theres some very intelligent people here, they are giving views that I wouldn`t even think of or have had experience in the areas relative.

Oh and I forgot - 5) the Irish people would not recognise a genuine hard working candidate if they jumped up and bit them on the arse. As the government now says they vote wrong! (joke courtesy of lisbon 2, which by the way would be the first thing I would get rid of, its ridiculous)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

r0nanf

Then what's the libertarian solution? Where's your candidates with the "real electoral alternatives"?

I think the "weasel" verb is a little harsh considering neither has had a chance to prove or disprove their ability in office - its an unfair presumption of coyness/slyness and it seems it is there purely to incite?

I agree that there is no party willing to take on all that you've outlined, but there are significant differences (which we've exchanged on before) and with respect I don't believe that a taxation overhaul is purely facile.

Darragh29

stepbar wrote: »

Shame on you for even bringing in the IMF to the debate. Have you no pride in your country at all? It's not possible to change whole departments over night. You would rather see access to essential front line services such as health being cut any further? It has to be done in a measured approach and fast. The only people who will suffer in a slash and burn approach are those who rely on these services the most. You can't just cut the supply lines off without providing viable alternatives (abeit not a good as the ones that exist) but at least they are alternatives. The effiencies have been let manufest over decades. Blaming the gov is the easy thing to do at the moment. We need solutions. We can lambast the Gov later and for the next hundred years for all I care. It's unrealistic to expect change in the short term as a result of these excesses. It has to be a medium - long term plan. Anything else will just add to the pain and misery that people at the fringes of society are experiencing at the moment. Nobody wants that. Nobody.

Bullsh*t. Of course change doesn't happen overnight, but is it being unrealistic expecting change to happen over maybe a 12 year period??? Because that's how long this government have had uninterrupted control over their government departments. As is always the way in this country, nobody takes responsibility and nobody is culpible. The fact that this government even has the neck to tell us that they are the people who are best positioned to get us out of this mess, after placing us in it with hopelessly corrupt policy decisions over the last ten years, says a lot about us as Irish people. I'm Irish and I'm proud to be Irish but I am ashamed at what we put up with in this country and the way we have this pathethic minimalistic sense of national achievement in nearly everything that we do.

We are passionate about nothing in this country. We should be out on the streets running these people out of office and warning the next government that if they EVER land us in a situation even remotely similar to the one we are now in, we will run them out of office as well. If we cared enough about our selves and our country, we would be doing this, but as is the way in this land, we don't really get animated about it unless it takes the steak off our plate and that really gets me wound up.

As there is no sign of us getting animated about this and we are determined to suffer obviously p*ss poor policy decisions and let our government p*ss our money all over the place, I'm for letting us run onto the rocks at this stage.

I know for 100% certainty that the path that this government is trying to take us down is going to lead to the country being bankrupt within 12 months. If they were doing something about jobs, I wouldn't make such a sweeping statement, but they are doing nothing so we are looking into a hopeless situation. Mary Coughlan is HOPELESSLY out of her depth in her brief as Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment. You could put someone like Michael O' Leary in there and he would struggle with this brief at the moment, so you have to ask what in the name of Jasus is Mary Coughlan going to achieve in that Ministry???

Here's an example of what I'm talking about...

I got a call yesterday from a business colleague who wants to start up a new business. The business idea is an excellent idea in my opinion anyway and could create anywhere up to ten jobs without a huge effort or cash injection. He wanted me to make a few enquiries for him to a County Enterprise Board down around in the midlands because it's his first time doing this and he was a bit nervous making contact with his local CEB. So I called his local CEB and got talking to a man there who told me that their funding has been cut so hard, thay he wasn't sure if his County Enterprise Board would actually be open for business this time next month!!! All their funding for the year has been cut and he didn't think that they can afford to keep the office open in 3 months time!

These cuts are being made by the same government that is telling you it is working hard to deliver the "smart economy", that it is working hard to "create and promote employment". It is indiciative of a government that hasn't a clue what it is trying to do.

r0nanf

Darragh29 wrote: »

We are passionate about nothing in this country. We should be out on the streets running these people out of office and warning the next government that if they EVER land us in a situation even remotely similar to the one we are now in, we will run them out of office as well. If we cared enough about our selves and our country, we would be doing this, but as is the way in this land, we don't really get animated about it unless it takes the steak off our plate and that really gets me wound up.

I may have given out about you wanting to call in the IMF, but I agree with everything you've said in that post. You're absolutely correct re Coughlan, smart economy, culpability etc. We can still sort it out ourselves though... we just don't want someone shredding whats left

oscarBravo

Darragh29 wrote: »

I know for 100% certainty that the path that this government is trying to take us down is going to lead to the country being bankrupt within 12 months.

No, you don't.

turgon

r0nanf wrote: »

Then what's the libertarian solution?

Well Im not libertarian, but the more "right" (in terms of political spectrum) solution might be:

Get the courage to plug the hole in public sector spending. Complete rationalization of the public service. I'm not going to say x amount of employees to be gone because rationalization would involve seeing who is needed and who is not.

Put a severe curtailment on social welfare. End welfare for millionaires. Means testing to be introduced, no one size fits all payments. Evaluation of all welfare payments to ensure no one is not tempted to "sponge" off the state.

Darragh29

r0nanf wrote: »

I may have given out about you wanting to call in the IMF, but I agree with everything you've said in that post. You're absolutely correct re Coughlan, smart economy, culpability etc. We can still sort it out ourselves though... we just don't want someone shredding whats left

What we need to do as a nation is stand up and run these useless f*ckers out of town. We need to have a general election and warn the next government that if they even think of landing us in anything that even remotely resembles the mess we are now in, we will go into government buildings and chase the government out of Leinster House and down Kildare Street. We need to stand up and give these people a very clear message, not just Fianna Fail but anyone who we confer our trust on to run this country, if they abuse that trust, we will visit the consequences down onto them.

I'm all for fixing the problems that we have, and I can tell you that there is nobody more able or willing than me to get involved and play my part, but by Jesus I think we have to clean out the pig sty first and put an end to this messing that is still going on.

We have the most serious unemployment crisis emerging before our eyes and we have a Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment who I think is one of the least capable people I have ever laid eyes on. Again, here we are tolerating it, allowing it to happen, suffering it.

A big song and a dance made out of an insignificant low level cabinet reshuffle yesterday and we are staring down at the business end of the biggest unemployment crisis we have ever seen in this country and I look at the paper today and I see probably the biggest dope I have ever seen looking back at me with a bewildered look on her face like and who am I looking at, the Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment.

Our problem is that we have a Norman Dyke type character in government who is responsible for creating jobs in this country... Have a look at this clip if you don't know who Norman Dyke was, he was the unlucky army officer leading the mission in this clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncC0lOJPYRw

stepbar

Darragh29 wrote: »

Bullsh*t. Of course change doesn't happen overnight, but is it being unrealistic expecting change to happen over maybe a 12 year period??? Because that's how long this government have had uninterrupted control over their government departments. As is always the way in this country, nobody takes responsibility and nobody is culpible. The fact that this government even has the neck to tell us that they are the people who are best positioned to get us out of this mess, after placing us in it with hopelessly corrupt policy decisions over the last ten years, says a lot about us as Irish people. I'm Irish and I'm proud to be Irish but I am ashamed at what we put up with in this country and the way we have this pathethic minimalistic sense of national achievement in nearly everything that we do.

We are passionate about nothing in this country. We should be out on the streets running these people out of office and warning the next government that if they EVER land us in a situation even remotely similar to the one we are now in, we will run them out of office as well. If we cared enough about our selves and our country, we would be doing this, but as is the way in this land, we don't really get animated about it unless it takes the steak off our plate and that really gets me wound up.

As there is no sign of us getting animated about this and we are determined to suffer obviously p*ss poor policy decisions and let our government p*ss our money all over the place, I'm for letting us run onto the rocks at this stage.

I know for 100% certainty that the path that this government is trying to take us down is going to lead to the country being bankrupt within 12 months. If they were doing something about jobs, I wouldn't make such a sweeping statement, but they are doing nothing so we are looking into a hopeless situation. Mary Coughlan is HOPELESSLY out of her depth in her brief as Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment. You could put someone like Michael O' Leary in there and he would struggle with this brief at the moment, so you have to ask what in the name of Jasus is Mary Coughlan going to achieve in that Ministry???

Here's an example of what I'm talking about...

I got a call yesterday from a business colleague who wants to start up a new business. The business idea is an excellent idea in my opinion anyway and could create anywhere up to ten jobs without a huge effort or cash injection. He wanted me to make a few enquiries for him to a County Enterprise Board down around in the midlands because it's his first time doing this and he was a bit nervous making contact with his local CEB. So I called his local CEB and got talking to a man there who told me that their funding has been cut so hard, thay he wasn't sure if his County Enterprise Board would actually be open for business this time next month!!! All their funding for the year has been cut and he didn't think that they can afford to keep the office open in 3 months time!

These cuts are being made by the same government that is telling you it is working hard to deliver the "smart economy", that it is working hard to "create and promote employment". It is indiciative of a government that hasn't a clue what it is trying to do.

Bullsh1t what? Bull**** that the IMF would help us :rolleyes:

Forget the past. We can't change it but learn from it. The Gov fcuked up big time. Now it's up to the people of the nation to put massive pressure on same to fix the problem or demand change in Gov. This is not doomsday, we can come out of this. FFS our parents did and we will too. As for the school of thought you have at the moment; it's shameful and actually shocking for someone who is "supposed" to be a businessman. You want to see the country run into the ground so that my children and their children pay for it? :rolleyes: (they are already but based on your train of thought it would get worse).

As for your friend; what did people do in the days when there was no CEB's? You know what they got on with it, set up a company, engaged the services of a good accountant / solicitor, got out there and sold themselves and their product. No amount of handholding / guidance will help someone do that. As for grants etc no one should go into business expecting a handout but they should expect a certain degree of financial help (which is not happening at the moment unfortunatly).

Darragh29

stepbar wrote: »

Forget the past. We can't change it but learn from it. The Gov fcuked up big time. Now it's up to the people of the nation to put massive pressure on same to fix the problem or demand change in Gov.

No I won't forget the past. If I was driving a car that you were a passenger in and I crashed the car into a field because I was driving recklessly, and the two of us get out of the upsidedown car and I stagger across the road to where I see a parked ambulance and tell you "it'll be grand, I'll drive you to the hospital", would you be OK with that???

Look, you make your decision with regard to how capable you think this government is. You make your decision and by all means stick to it. But I've made my decision and there is no way I can see this government resolving the difficulties that we now find ourselves in, not just based on past performance but more based on current performance. This isn't me being backwards looking or anything, I just look at them and see useless people in the government. That's my perspective on it. I don't see any energy from any person in government, I don't see any leaders, I just don't see anything full stop, except a woman who looks absolutely and utterly bewildered every single time I see her and a Taoiseach who looks like he just fell out of a pub.

I don't see any smart ideas emerging, and this is after a year of this recession, I don't see any plan to create jobs. Forget about creating jobs for a minute, I don't even see a plan to prevent further job losses. Now if you're seeing something on these fronts that I'm just not seeing, by all means enlighten me.

There's plenty of talk about "pulling us out of it" and "We are working hard to save the economy and create jobs" and "we are working with our departments to save jobs and restart the economy".. Great, wonderful, marvelous, NOW WHERE'S THE F*CKING PLAN/STRATEGY, THAT SHOWS ME HOW YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS???

alegrabaroque

Yes yes we`ve all heard all the arguements before are there any solutions?

Lizzykins

Hear, hear, Darragh re your last few posts. EVERY word is true. That is exactly the way I feel. As a former American ambassador aid a few years ago-"The Irish have no sense of outrage" Well I do and as soon as we get up off our backsides and march on Leinster House 1789 French style I'll be there!