N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

marno21

JupiterKid wrote: »

FG deserve to be completely decimated at the next general election - their incompetence and downright wilful inaction on properly tacking the housing crisis, the massive transport backlog and the mismanagement of the health sector beggar belief...

The amount of bureaucracy and other **** that these projects are getting tangled in now is something that badly needs rectifying.

Then again, all that bureaucracy is useful if you have no intention of actually building stuff and need the cash for the latest HSE overrun.

Live at Three

JupiterKid wrote: »

FG deserve to be completely decimated at the next general election - their incompetence and downright wilful inaction on properly tacking the housing crisis, the massive transport backlog and the mismanagement of the health sector beggar belief...

Not to mention their complete and systematic failure, on both a local and a national level, to tackle the bunny crisis in any meaningful way.

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

specifically a major redesign of the tunnel overheight system, which now must be on all of the slip roads to the tunnel, presumably.

Redesign of the overheight system, but sadly no redesign of the substandard cycling route.

Cork Trucker

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Redesign of the overheight system, but sadly no redesign of the substandard cycling route.

A cycling route through the tunnel?

hans aus dtschl

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A cycling route through the tunnel?

I think you're being tongue-in-cheek but just in case...
The Dunkettle interchange upgrade will see freeflow traffic for ALMOST all users. Cyclists will be sent on an uphill detour north of the interchange, where they'll cede priority to motorised traffic approx. 5 times. Designers could provide a simple route south of the interchange instead at minimal cost difference. But they refuse to do so, possibly because they've managed to somehow ship responsibility for this traffic flow onto Cork County Council.

As an aside I believe some original tunnel designs may have seen the central "escape" tunnel bore being bigger and used for pedestrians, but this was cut out of the final design!

Lackadaisical

JupiterKid wrote: »

FG deserve to be completely decimated at the next general election - their incompetence and downright wilful inaction on properly tacking the housing crisis, the massive transport backlog and the mismanagement of the health sector beggar belief...

While I'd agree with the sentiment the problem is they'll just get replaced with their mirror image, FF, who have done exactly the same and destroyed the economy on several occasions. I certainly don't remember enlightened housing policy pre 2008. So I don't hold out much hope for major improvements to levels of infrastructural planning competence anytime soon.

I'm seeing a lot of Cork projects being put on the back burner though between this and the events centre. I assume the light rail / tram is absolute pie in the sky too.

Until we get proper empowerment of local government to drive these kinds of things I don't think you'll ever see anything other than urban projects being national political footballs. We've nothing even remotely like the kind of local and regional government structures that exist elsewhere in Europe. It's an incredibly centralised country by any comparison.

snotboogie

Lackadaisical wrote: »

While I'd agree with the sentiment the problem is they'll just get replaced with their mirror image, FF, who have done exactly the same and destroyed the economy on several occasions. I certainly don't remember enlightened housing policy pre 2008. So I don't hold out much hope for major improvements to levels of infrastructural planning competence anytime soon.

I'm seeing a lot of Cork projects being put on the back burner though between this and the events centre. I assume the light rail / tram is absolute pie in the sky too.

Until we get proper empowerment of local government to drive these kinds of things I don't think you'll ever see anything other than urban projects being national political footballs. We've nothing even remotely like the kind of local and regional government structures that exist elsewhere in Europe. It's an incredibly centralised country by any comparison.

And we just voted to keep it that way

Lackadaisical

Whatever about the progress of the interchange, the state the N8 Lower Glanmire Road has been left in after those pipe laying works is just unbelievable. I managed to bang my head off the ceiling of the car driving over some of it.

I realize there are on going works on the city centre parts but what's the plan to resurface that whole stretch? It's an absolutely disgrace, particularly as it's the main route into the city from the M8 and N25.

Cork Trucker

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Whatever about the progress of the interchange, the state the N8 Lower Glanmire Road has been left in after those pipe laying works is just unbelievable. I managed to bang my head off the ceiling of the car driving over some of it.

I realize there are on going works on the city centre parts but what's the plan to resurface that whole stretch? It's an absolutely disgrace, particularly as it's the main route into the city from the M8 and N25.

Yeah it is rough alright, but you know yourself, no sooner will they resurface the road and it will have to be dug up again for some other reason putting it back to square one.

Lackadaisical

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Yeah it is rough alright, but you know yourself, no sooner will they resurface the road and it will have to be dug up again for some other reason putting it back to square one.

To be fair, it has *never* been in the state it's in at the moment.

I am hoping they're just waiting until they are completely finished with the water works. I noticed they're getting some E Net ducting in and KN is also doing work for Eir (I assume) replacing vault covers.

Chris_5339762

No major updates this week on the newsletter.

• Works on site over the next two weeks will include fencing to the site boundary, as well as works to protect utilities that cross the site.
• Works also continue on the N40 ITS, and the Little Island upgrade projects, both of which aim to ease traffic congestion during the Dunkettle upgrade. More detail on these works is provided below.
• Congestion at the Dunkettle interchange is much reduced at the moment as we enter the school holiday period. The reduction in traffic volume is actually relatively small but as regular commuters will know, this reduction leads to a very welcome reduction in congestion. The Dunkettle team continue to visit businesses to explore measures with management and workforces that could bring about a similar reduction throughout the year. This would have major benefits both for commuters and for the efficient delivery of the upgrade project.
• We are taking advantage of the reduced traffic to make some adjustments to our Journey Time System through the Interchange. www.dunkettletraffic.ie has been showing some incorrect journey times as a result, and the variable message signs at the roadside approaches to the interchange have been turned off. The system will be back up and running next week.

One bunny on the south side of the interchange tonight and three or four on the north. All eating grass

Cork Trucker

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Transport-authority-Tender-for-Dunkettle-works-in-final-stages--412a5d94-4648-42a9-b452-4b46541c58b4-ds

CONSTRUCTION on a €100m revamp of the Dunkettle Interchange could begin in the coming weeks if a target price can be agreed between the State and the contractor that will build it.

marno21

Cork Trucker wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Transport-authority-Tender-for-Dunkettle-works-in-final-stages--412a5d94-4648-42a9-b452-4b46541c58b4-ds

Time to cross the fingers. If it has to be retendered then that’ll delay it quite a bit

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

Time to cross the fingers. If it has to be retendered then that’ll delay it quite a bit

If it were retendered/delayed, would that effectively put Dunkettle/M20/M28/ all on top of one another assuming that the Macroom BP proceeds ahead of them all?

hans aus dtschl

Cork Trucker wrote: »

If it were retendered/delayed, would that effectively put Dunkettle/M20/M28/ all on top of one another assuming that the Macroom BP proceeds ahead of them all?

This is what I was getting at in another thread.

With all of the "ground conditions on-site" talk, we could end up with all projects pushed back.

AugustusMinimus

Coveney needs to step in here. Public infrastructure projects are quickly becoming a farce in Cork.

Doesn’t seem to be happening elsewhere though.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Coventry needs to step in here. Public infrastructure projects are quickly becoming a farce in Cork.

Doesn’t seem to be happening elsewhere though.

It’s going to be a difficult election for him if this goes to the wall too. Events Centre, this, the CMATS plan which most people had a laugh at with its timescale, zero progress on the M20, no clear interest in the North Ring, the M28, nothing happening in the Docklands etc

marno21

Cork Trucker wrote: »

If it were retendered/delayed, would that effectively put Dunkettle/M20/M28/ all on top of one another assuming that the Macroom BP proceeds ahead of them all?

There was a post on SSC about the Macroom BP being delayed too due to issues out of the advance works. If that’s the case it’s all up in the air

highwaymaniac

marno21 wrote: »

It’s going to be a difficult election for him if this goes to the wall too. Events Centre, this, the CMATS plan which most people had a laugh at with its timescale, zero progress on the M20, no clear interest in the North Ring, the M28, nothing happening in the Docklands etc

Costs appear to have gone up significantly (is were underestimated) in a short period of time, a mini version of children's hospital, I can't see Coveney getting this over the line, prudent Paschal will want this retendered.

spacetweek

The Echo article sounds like a storm in a teacup. Negotiations between the contractor and the gov are standard and they might take time but it should be over the line in a few weeks/months at the most.

100 million is a decent price for such a large scheme and too small a figure to be argued much over. It's the NCH they should be arguing about.

Pete_Cavan

Both this and the Children's Hospital sound like nonsense ways of appointing a contractor - get the contractor to start doing some works on site and then try to agree a price for the works when you are practically committed to using that contractor otherwise you have to go through a year or more of procurement and risk the project not happening at all. The contractor is in a very strong negotiating position and they already have the inside track on how they can make the job work to their benefit.

kub

€100m upgrade to Cork city traffic blackspot in peril

By Elaine Loughlin

Political Correspondent

Follow @Elaine_Loughlin

Friday, July 05, 2019 - 06:30 AM

The €100m Dunkettle interchange upgrade is under threat with the Government considering halting work due to spiralling costs.

There are now fears the cost of the infrastructure project, which is critical in relieving congestion around Cork City, could end up as high as €170m.

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin has called on the Government to “come clean” on the current cost of the upgrade, which has already been delayed.

Documents seen by the Irish Examiner show work is being carried out to agree a “target cost” for the project, which was first estimated to come in at €100m, but then jumped to €115m. However, the document reveals that, “at this early stage of assessment, there are areas of significant differences with the contractor in relation to pricing rates submitted”.

The document, issued on June 27, also warns that contractors Sisk may be let go if agreement on price cannot be reached and a procurement process to find another company to carry out the work would have to begin.

“This will delay the completion by some 12-18 months. It is a question of value,” wrote Peter Walsh, Transport Infrastructure Ireland director of capital programmes.

Mr Martin said “there will be huge alarm” around the revelations that the main work on the upgrade, which was due to begin earlier this year, could now be completely stopped while a new tender process is under way.

“It’s very worrying and I am very concerned about it,” he said. “It begs the question, how have the Government got this wrong again?”

He and others had been seeking an update on the project for months, adding that rumours are swirling around the cost of the development which may rise to between €160m and €170m.

The Department of Transport did not provide any updated costings to the Irish Examiner. However, a spokesperson said the target cost stage would be concluded in the coming weeks.

“Advance works have been carried out, the contractor’s design has been finalised and quantified and work is currently progressing on the establishment of the target cost,” the spokesperson confirmed.

“If the parties agree a target cost with the stage one contractor, construction can commence, subject to the necessary approvals as required under the public spending code. Alternatively, if the parties cannot agree a target cost, stage two will be retendered.”

More than 100,000 vehicles use the interchange every day and it is one of the biggest congestion blackspots in Cork.

Mr Martin said planning permissions for residential developments had been granted on the basis of the upgrade being carried out and the city development plan reflects the fact that the project will go ahead.

“There is significant gridlock around this interchange,” he said. “There are massive volumes of traffic going through it each day, especially at rush hour.

“I think the Government need to come clean on this and need to be transparent.”

The Cork South Central TD said the latest revelations add to a trend of spiralling costs on public projects.

“There is a wider issue here also in terms of how accurate the figures for projects in the National Development Plan now are,” said Mr Martin. “It’s all looking very ropey when you have overspending on the National Children’s Hospital and the National Broadband Plan. Now this project seems to be out of kilter as well.”

Last month, Sisk chief Stephen Bowcott said Dunkettle is “in the hands of the Government as to how to proceed”. In April, the company, which has carried out the first phase of the two-phase contract, said they had found the site to be more challenging than expected.

AugustusMinimus

There is something go on in regards public spending in Cork. Projects can proceed elsewhere yet there is always something happening here.

Coveney appears to be absolutely useless in getting anything for this city. Unlike other cities in the country, we are seeing huge private support but virtually nothing from the public purse.

Lackadaisical

I also got the distinct impression that because the mayoral plebiscite was rejected that Varadkar seemed to be almost annoyed with the city. There was a very dismissive tweet went out after the result, that implied that all focus would be on Limerick. Even the fact that they've just ploughed on with the setting up of a citizen's assembly only in Dublin and seem to be just ignoring any debate on local government issues in Cork now is worrying.

I think I'll be avoiding voting FG.

Pete_Cavan

The above whinging is exactly what the likes of Sisk and BAM want to hear in these situations. They get themselves identified as preferred tenderer, get to the negotiating table and ratchet up the price, government either signs up to the contract or deals with the political consequences of scraping the process. Its lose lose for government, Sisk won't really have lost anything if the job doesn't go ahead and have hit the jackpot if it does.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The above whinging is exactly what the likes of Sisk and BAM want to hear in these situations. They get themselves identified as preferred tenderer, get to the negotiating table and ratchet up the price, government either signs up to the contract or deals with the political consequences of scraping the process. Its lose lose for government, Sisk won't really have lost anything if the job doesn't go ahead and have hit the jackpot if it does.

On the other hand, if the price HAS ballooned to €170m, there should be serious discussions about the initial cost estimate and what the deviations are.

Hold fire on the politicians right now, but a bit more transparency as to exactly what's going on would be welcome. This is public money.

Lackadaisical

I'd assume they didn't estimate the fact that the junction is basically sitting in reclaimed land in a wetland / saltwater swamp. It's way more complicated than the M50 junctions because of that.

Would €170m into public transit to reduce traffic volumes on the N40 work?

The traffic volumes on that road are ludicrous, given the population size. I mean we've about 350,000 people in the Cork metropolitan area and 100,000 cars a day using the junction. Cork is also an end route on the road network, so it's not explainable by traffic using the junction transiting elsewhere. It's obviously all commuter traffic. It means about 50% (assuming some cars have more than 1 person) of the metropolitan population transit than junction every day. The only other explanation is we've a vastly inaccurate population statistic, and that's fairly unlikely.

Could any more be done to reasonably improve flow on the N40 without spending that? Maybe spend €50m on a full smart motorway project with adaptive signage and managed junctions?

The whole thing points to a spectacular failure of public transport systems and we all know that CIE has treated Cork like like a small country town for decades.

I mean for example if you look at Little Island or Mahon. There's a really sparse public transit setup yet they're major hubs of employment attracting huge numbers of commuters.

Do we even have any survey showing where people work and live and how they get there? The transit system should be matching those patterns, instead we've still got all these busses running in and out radially, without links between outer employment hubs and commuter housing.

I mean you'd expect say something like a proper orbital bus network running frequently on the N40 that allows you to move between say Carrigaline and Mahon, Little Island, Ballincollig, City Centre and so on by just making easy interchanges.

The routes aren't properly planned and they're not using natural interchange points. E.g. there could be a major interchange at Mahon Point directly off the N40 and others along the route. I mean why not have an overhead bus station in Douglas off the bridge or something ? Loads of space at Douglas mills or beside the SC?

Change for the city / airport at a proper hub at Kinsale Road ..

There's loads of possibilities and we aren't doing them.

Could also use an orbital tramway or electric guided busses.

I really don't think we have any plan. It's just build houses and get clogs, live with congestion and so on.

Also there's a huge huge issue with the central government and Irish commentary notion of "Dublin and non-Dublin". It's throwing Cork and the other cities into the "rural Ireland" category because we've a major psychological barrier to recognising that we've more than one urban area.

kub

Lackadaisical wrote: »

I'd assume they didn't estimate the fact that the junction is basically sitting in reclaimed land in a wetland / saltwater swamp. It's way more complicated than the M50 junctions because of that.

Anyone who puts a quotation in for a job should see the bleeding obvious, it is tidal down there, anyone who goes down there can see that and of course the tunnel goes under the water.


So if any contractor went down there and did not notice the conditions, then I do not think they should have been given the job.

Pete_Cavan

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

On the other hand, if the price HAS ballooned to €170m, there should be serious discussions about the initial cost estimate and what the deviations are.

Hold fire on the politicians right now, but a bit more transparency as to exactly what's going on would be welcome. This is public money.

No that's on the same hand. The task for Sisk here is to convince the government to give them as much money as possible. There are no other tenderers now so they don't have to worry about beating anyone on price. The public pressure to get the job done plays into the contractor's hands, they can threaten to walk away knowing that the government are reluctant to let that happen as they have to deal with the political fallout from it.

It would be interesting to know how much truth there is to ground conditions being worse than originally thought. If this is coming from Sisk, I would be very suspicious of it. It is in their interest to interpret everything as bad as possible so that they can push up the contract value. This is why negotiating with one contractor and letting them on site to gather information to support their case is a crazy way to award a contractor.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It would be interesting to know how much truth there is to ground conditions being worse than originally thought. If this is coming from Sisk, I would be very suspicious of it.

That's my opinion too.