Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language

Grudaire

It's good to hear that you are in favour of the language, and its good to see a bit of diversity of opinion within the pro - Irish camp.

O'Morris wrote: »

It's obvious as well that many people in this country feel differently about the Irish language than you do or I do. I don't think those people should have what they see as a foreign language forced on them against their will. They should have the option to reclaim the taxes the government is spending on Irish in the same way that atheists in Germany can reclaim the money that their government is spending on the churches.

Surely its more like The Irish state spending money on the Churches (Or even the Child abuse compensation)? The problem with this would be that at what stage would we stop here - Do I get to claim back money that is spent on English? (As the case should have been, as operating through Irish poses a whole range of difficulties). Do I get to claim back money that is spent on the Oprah and other cultural projects (which I have nothing to do with)?

O'Morris wrote: »

My goal is to see us getting out of the hole we're in. If reducing the amount of money spent on the Irish language helps us in that goal then I would support it. We need to face up to the seriousness of the problem we have to deal with. We're the most indebted country in the world with a debt more than 800% of GDP. We just don't have the money for non-essentials. If spending on the Irish language can be cut then it should be cut in my opinion.

Well since we're turning the argument to an economical basis I have to say that I look at it this way:

The Government needs taxes - one way of generating taxes is through spending money themselves to boost the economy. Often this is done with large Capital projects - eg Motorways, Rail etc etc. The ideal situation is where the money that is spent stays in Ireland, and bounces around eventually ending back in the Governments pocket.

Now reverse the logic - Money that the Government spends on Irish ends up in Ireland in general (we have pretty much a monopoly on the language). Often ends up in the western regions - where it generally bounces around the Irish economy. By reducing the spend on Irish, this will reduce the economic activity in Ireland. Thus reducing the tax take. And the savings that you talk about dissappear very quickly.

Joey the lips

I have said it before and I will say it again. This has nothing to do with Savings. Its an anti irish campagn and despite that massive amounts of money was spent by the goverment so that irish would be rec as an eu language. meaning you or your kids would have one language less to learn for EU jobs some people think it helps to discourage its use!

Rather than discourage the production of the irish language you should be discouraging the use of the english language.

Something lost on the anti irish campagn.

If the topic does not get senseable soon and possibly debate sensable energy savings I am unsubscribing from the Thread.

SkepticOne

Cliste wrote: »

By reducing the spend on Irish, this will reduce the economic activity in Ireland. Thus reducing the tax take. And the savings that you talk about dissappear very quickly.

So we increase spending on Irish, this increases the tax take, allowing us to spend more on Irish thus futher increasing the tax take. Public finance problem solved!

Sand

Thing is its not foreign.

The thing is Jank, I said on the same basis as a foreign langauge - You cannot assume a kid walks into school with a functional knowledge of French, nor can you assume the same of Irish.

English on the other hand is spoken in the home by the vast majority of people. Horses for courses.

Glad to see you're living in your own little world - I thought we all knew that the politics forum was as Béarla (and I've been in other threads with you, and I have had Irish removed - lest it be offensive to others). I assumed you could put 1 and 1 together, and get two - not 51.

Look Cliste, keep spinning and denying. You know we couldnt have this debate in Irish - on any forum - because the vast majority of Irish people wouldnt be able to participate. You smugly said as much. Now when thats presented to you as evidence of the real usage and fluency of "irish speakers" in Ireland its all deny, deny, deny.

Its blatantly clear what you said and your false outrage and denials dont change what you said.

But then again thats the problem - you don't seem to be able to look at this rationally

Im looking at this entirely rationally. Lets look at Dlofs stated view....that 93% of Irish people want the government to support Irish, regardless of cost. My position - no official lanague, optional Irish in the cirriculum like French/German/Spanish - is entirely rational.

Then Sand again brings up the whole - 'we need to save money' argument - think about the children type stuff. Stopping translations to Irish would not make a dent in the 30 Billion - you are vastly overestimating the cost of translations.

It wouldnt save 30 billion, but it would save at the very least millions. Wast the costing on that cervical cancer screening for 12 year old girls only a few million? Oh well, too bad for them - need that money to translate legal documents into Irish to appease Cliste and company. Those girls just got to hope they stay lucky.

You might think its unfair to put that sort of "either/or" but the government is going to find 30 billion in cutbacks somehow. You consider the translation of documents into Irish and ask me just how important that is compared to education, health or law enforcement?

Seems pretty favourable in support of the language to me. There is support for the language.. Support for it's revival, support for it's preservation, support for it's funding. You'd have to be completely deluded to deny this - And it seems unfortunately, that some of you are.

Polls are fairly idiotic. Were those people asked to rate the importance of Irish against health, education and law enforcement? No? Oh right, so then its useless and just a feel good "Do you want to end world hunger?" type poll.

If the topic does not get senseable soon and possibly debate sensable energy savings I am unsubscribing from the Thread.

OH NO! :rolleyes:

Grudaire

Sand wrote: »

Look Cliste, keep spinning and denying. You know we couldnt have this debate in Irish - on any forum - because the vast majority of Irish people wouldnt be able to participate. You smugly said as much. Now when thats presented to you as evidence of the real usage and fluency of "irish speakers" in Ireland its all deny, deny, deny.

Its blatantly clear what you said and your false outrage and denials dont change what you said.

Huh? Thats not what I said at all - now you're calling me smug. If I had said anything that stupid I would have taken it down - but thats not what I said at all, and no amount of accusations will make me have said it.

Given that you actually have something to say (see below), why would you resort to such petty word picking - especially when I went to the trouble of clarifying the statement for you. Am I better than you at English as well as Irish? (and Maths by the looks of things too:p)

Sand wrote: »

Im looking at this entirely rationally. Lets look at Dlofs stated view....that 93% of Irish people want the government to support Irish, regardless of cost. My position - no official lanague, optional Irish in the cirriculum like French/German/Spanish - is entirely rational.

But doesn't have the support of the electorate - and don't make it out to be an infinite cost. Your position is an opinion based on NOTHING - you have brought no new information to me, or to the debate.

Sand wrote: »

It wouldnt save 30 billion, but it would save at the very least millions. Wast the costing on that cervical cancer screening for 12 year old girls only a few million? Oh well, too bad for them - need that money to translate legal documents into Irish to appease Cliste and company. Those girls just got to hope they stay lucky.

As above don't quote figures you've made up

Sand wrote: »

You might think its unfair to put that sort of "either/or" but the government is going to find 30 billion in cutbacks somehow. You consider the translation of documents into Irish and ask me just how important that is compared to education, health or law enforcement?

I think that cutting Irish language funding will have sweet feck all difference on the budget. Furthermore you haven't dealt with what I said about the economy, and how it probably isn't a great idea cutting money for the Irish language.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

People were asked questions regarding their attitude towards the language. They answered it. Now either, you're calling them all liars or the poll is perfectly valid. I'm willing the go with the latter.

Or the poll might be bogus.

dlofnep

2 seperate polls bogus? Right. You don't give up, do you? You might want to check out the conspiracy forum. It would be more akin for your theories.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

2 seperate polls bogus? Right. You don't give up, do you?

Nor do you.

Who conducted the polls? How many people were polled? How was the sample selected? Who set the questions? Who audited the results?

dlofnep

One conducted by boards, 550+ polled. Obviously, sampled by free participation.

The other was conducted by by Father Micheal Mac Greil SJ and Fergal Rhatigan. "The findings are based on 40-minute face-to-face interviews with a random sample of 1,015 persons (85% of them Irish-born) aged 18 years and over in this State between November 2007 and March 2008. The fieldwork was carried out by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)."

I think you're just looking for excuses to attack the credibility of what is obvious support for the language. You find me a poll that disproves any of this and we'll talk. Until then, it's off to the conspiracy forum for you.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

One conducted by boards, 550+ polled. Obviously, sampled by free participation.

So the polls were conducted by Irish language enthusiasts based on a small unscientific sample, using loaded questions and with no measures to protect against rigging?

The results are rubbish. I can't put it any more politely. Sorry.

dlofnep wrote:

You find me a poll that disproves any of this and we'll talk.

The number of people that do not speak Irish in their everyday life? No poll needed.

dlofnep

Whatever. That is your opinion (an unfounded one, lacking any real merit).

The fact that you dispute that there is obvious support for the language indicates that you are well and truly, biased, deluded and hellbent on simply attacking the language for the sake of it.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

Whatever. That is your opinion (an unfounded one, lacking any real merit).

The polls lack merit. Next time hire professionals.

dlofnep wrote: »

The fact that you dispute that there is obvious support for the language indicates that you are well and truly, biased, deluded and hellbent on simply attacking the language for the sake of it.

There is obvious support for Irish, I dispute the level of support claimed by you, which is not based on fact.

I have not attacked the language. Your inept efforts to promote it, using fabricated data will do more damage to the credibility of the proponents of Irish than any critic could possibly do.

dlofnep

Find me a poll that states otherwise, until then - it's purely speculation on your part and fact backed with data on my behalf.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

Find me a poll that states otherwise, until then - it's purely speculation on your part

You're ignoring the fact that most people do not speak Irish or use Irish-language services?:rolleyes: That's not a poll, it's reality.

dlofnep wrote: »

and fact backed with data on my behalf.

Your data has been proven to be scientifically invalid and your inferences from it no more than fantasy.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

You're ignoring the fact that most people do not speak Irish or use Irish-language services?:rolleyes: That's not a poll, it's reality.

I never stated that they did. I stated that there is a majority support for the language and it's funding. I backed that up with sources from 2 separate polls which echoed my findings. However, these polls are credible enough for you because you're overly biased and can't bring yourself to admit that the majority of Ireland are quite content with the language being funded, and are happy to keep it apart of Irish curriculum.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Your data has been proven to be scientifically invalid and your inferences from it no more than fantasy.

Proven to be scientifically invalid? LOL.

The only thing that the data has proven is that the majority of the people support the language. Nothing more, nothing less. I'll give you an A for effort, but seriously - you don't have a leg to stand on.

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

The polls lack merit. Next time hire professionals.

I'm sorry but how does a poll from "Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)" in Maynooth lack merit???? Please don't call something rubish without having the cop on to actually look at it - especially when the info is openly handed to you by dlofnep

Come on back to the real world. Your point on nobody using Irish language services is because they are not available in the same way - it is only now that I can expect to find up to date/any info on the web in Irish.

NewDubliner wrote: »

There is obvious support for Irish, I dispute the level of support claimed by you, which is not based on fact.

I have not attacked the language. Your inept efforts to promote it, using fabricated data will do more damage to the credibility of the proponents of Irish than any critic could possibly do.

uneducated debate helps no one, but there are problems on your side too - I have been accused of "spinning and denying." something I clearly didn't say.

Soldie

Wait, you're actually using a boards.ie poll to back up their claim that Irish is well supported? Are you serious? Talk about scraping the barrel. You're completely deluded if you think there's widespread support for the Irish language, and the fact that the vast majority of Irish people do not speak the language is the only statistic worth talking about.

NewDubliner

Cliste wrote: »

I'm sorry but how does a poll from "Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)" in Maynooth lack merit???? Please don't call something rubish without having the cop on to actually look at it - especially when the info is openly handed to you by dlofnep

I take it that you agree with me the 'boards' poll is unreliable. That just leaves the ESRI poll. This was of a relative handful of people.

If the claim is that 93% of the public support you and dlofnep, where is the evidence that 100% of the public were consulted?

Cliste wrote: »

Your point on nobody using Irish language services is because they are not available in the same way - it is only now that I can expect to find up to date/any info on the web in Irish.

You conveniently ignore the fact that a very large majority of people use English (and only English) in their everyday lives. This is a factual expression of the limit of their support for the Irish langauge. They don't speak it.

As to services provision, RnAG and TG4 are equally as available as the English-language equivalents and have significantly lower numbers listeners/viewers. In the private sector, always alert to the demands of customers and a chance for profit, very few offer services in Irish...why do think this is the case...? (hint - no demand)

Cliste wrote: »

I stated that there is a majority support for the language and it's funding.

But you provide no evidence of the majority of the people being asked for their opinion, nor have the majority been informed of the cost of your demands. So, there's no way you could know this to be a fact.

Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

Wait, you're actually using a boards.ie poll to back up their claim that Irish is well supported? Are you serious? Talk about scraping the barrel. You're completely deluded if you think there's widespread support for the Irish language, and the fact that the vast majority of Irish people do not speak the language is the only statistic worth talking about.

Grand look at the other poll - why do people ignore half an argument just to pick holes in stuff like spelling. I agree that a Boards.ie poll isn't reliable - then again we have a ESRI poll, and a Boards.ie poll backing up the claim that Irish is supported by the public at large.

On the other hand the fact that people do not have the time and patience to learn another language(which is quite difficult to be fair) is somehow held up as evidence that they are against funding for the Irish language.

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

Wait, you're actually using a boards.ie poll to back up their claim that Irish is well supported? Are you serious? Talk about scraping the barrel. You're completely deluded if you think there's widespread support for the Irish language,

Why is their opinion not valid - Because you say so? They were asked their opinion and they gave it. And let's be honest, if there was a boards.ie poll that suggested that the Irish language had little support, you'd be quick to use it as a source.

The other poll is even more credible as outlined by Cliste.

Soldie wrote: »

and the fact that the vast majority of Irish people do not speak the language is the only statistic worth talking about.

I think we've tackled this easy to solve riddle already. They don't speak it, because they can't speak it. They can't speak it because the curriculum is not a functional method of language instruction. Quite simple really. No mystery.

Grudaire

NewDubliner wrote: »

I take it that you agree with me the 'boards' poll is unreliable. That just leaves the ESRI poll. This was of a relative handful of people.

If the claim is that 93% of the public support you and dlofnep, where is the evidence that 100% of the public were consulted?

When has any decision actually had everyone asked!? Constitution changes are the only time - but I've never heard that argument used against the many many other decisions that the government takes.

As for the whole Relative handful argument I take it that you have never studied statistics? Basically to give you a crash course 500 is as many as is needed to have an accurate poll (I assume you will take the ESRI's word on this?), If it was a truly random sample (ie Mathematically Random) then 30 is generally assumed to be enough to make any sample have a normal distribution. Needless to say to be 100% sure we would need to poll everyone - you see to get the poll more accurate (eg from 4% 'error' to 2% 'error') you have to take 4 times the sample - and needless to say we wouldn't want to see money wasted like that;)

NewDubliner wrote: »

You conveniently ignore the fact that a very large majority of people use English (and only English) in their everyday lives. This is a factual expression of the limit of their support for the Irish langauge. They don't speak it.

As to services provision, RnAG and TG4 are equally as available as the English-language equivalents and have significantly lower numbers listeners/viewers. In the private sector, always alert to the demands of customers and a chance for profit, very few offer services in Irish...why do think this is the case...? (hint - no demand)

Gaeltachts are sold out year in year out. I'm sure if you were to Google it you would find that many business operate through Irish. Microsoft offered XP through Irish. The Irish Language community has translated Firefox, OpenOffice, and even Linux(ie there's a translation available that plugs into any linux) to Irish. This was all done by Irish speakers FOR FREE - A demand does exist, and you would do well not to deny it outright

NewDubliner wrote: »

But you provide no evidence of the majority of the people being asked for their opinion, nor have the majority been informed of the cost of your demands. So, there's no way you could know this to be a fact.

The Official Languages act was in the pipeline for a good while - perhaps if you had taken the time to find out about it?

jank

O'Morris wrote: »

It is foreign in the eyes of many people in this country. Many protestants, people in Dublin, non-nationals and people of non-Irish descent feel very little attachment to the language. For many of them, Irish is nothing more than the language of the bog-thick Irish ethnics outside the pale..

I think nail on head with the attitude that some Irish people have of their language, hence why we are discussing this topic in length.

jank

Sand wrote: »

The thing is Jank, I said on the same basis as a foreign langauge - You cannot assume a kid walks into school with a functional knowledge of French, nor can you assume the same of Irish.

English on the other hand is spoken in the home by the vast majority of people. Horses for courses.

Well by the time I started schools, I had a better understanding of Irish then I did of English. Of course this doesnt happen in every situation. However, The future lies with the gaelscoileanna.

NewDubliner

Cliste wrote: »

Gaeltachts are sold out year in year out. I'm sure if you were to Google it you would find that many business operate through Irish. Microsoft offered XP through Irish. The Irish Language community has translated Firefox, OpenOffice, and even Linux(ie there's a translation available that plugs into any linux) to Irish. This was all done by Irish speakers FOR FREE - A demand does exist, and you would do well not to deny it outright

Developed for free and given away for nothing...nobody would pay for it?

The question is the size of the demand. O'Cuiv's survey was self-serving and its results misinterpreted. The majority of those polled (53%) merely agreed to the preservation of Irish. 'Preserving' the language, just entails keeping some archives. That's hardly a vociferous demand for more services.

I think we could learn more by analysing web logs for indicators of the use of Irish-language web browsers. As it is, we know that far less than the 40% who 'would like to see it revived and spoken in the population', actually use the Irish language services that exist. This raises doubts in my mind concerning the actual questions that were put and what alternatives were provided.

Cliste wrote: »

The Official Languages act was in the pipeline for a good while - perhaps if you had taken the time to find out about it?

It's never too late to put the brakes on once a money-wasting scheme has been uncovered.

There are better (and less expensive) ways for Irish to be promoted.

dlofnep

NewDubliner wrote: »

The question is the size of the demand. O'Cuiv's survey was self-serving and its results misinterpreted. The majority of those polled (53%) merely agreed to the preservation of Irish. 'Preserving' the language, just entails keeping some archives. That's hardly a vociferous demand for more services.

I think we could learn more by analysing web logs for indicators of the use of Irish-language web browsers. As it is, we know that far less than the 40% who 'would like to see it revived and spoken in the population', actually use the Irish language services that exist. This raises doubts in my mind concerning the actual questions that were put and what alternatives were provided.

I see you've totally ignored the 72% on boards (out of a poll of 550+ people) that stated that they wanted the language to receive increased funding and supported it wholeheartedly. There is support for the language, whether you want to believe it or not. And unless you can back up your claims without any data, then it's purely speculation without any merit.

NewDubliner wrote: »

There are better (and less expensive) ways for Irish to be promoted.

I'm all ears. Let's hear them.

yoshytoshy

The best thing to do with the irish language is to teach it ,only in dedicated irish schools.
Irish should not be thought in schools ,unless they actually use irish as the first language.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

I see you've totally ignored the 72% on boards (out of a poll of 550+ people)

It's unrepresentative, the questions were loaded and there were inadequate protections against poll rigging. In short, a joke.

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm all ears. Let's hear them.

Abandon the OLA. The language will survive on its own merits and those of the people who actually speak it.

Grudaire

yoshytoshy wrote: »

The best thing to do with the irish language is to teach it ,only in dedicated irish schools.
Irish should not be thought in schools ,unless they actually use irish as the first language.

If you stop English being a compulsory language you have a deal (as much as my support is a deal)

NewDubliner wrote: »

Developed for free and given away for nothing...nobody would pay for it?

Yea thats right - in general people pay for Linux, firefox, Openoffice etc

Can you not just accept a point that I make? Sometimes, just sometimes, I might actually have a point. You have been supplied with a bloody survey from the ERSI, and yet you insist on continuing your little temper tantrum. Well guess what sonny jim, throwing your toys out of the pram doesn't make you right. Perhaps if you had actually brought anything to the debate you would be less worthy of scorn - however your current tactic of demanding everything such as figures and facts then dismissing them off hand is getting tiring, and shows the shallowness of your argument.

NewDubliner wrote: »

The question is the size of the demand. O'Cuiv's survey was self-serving and its results misinterpreted. The majority of those polled (53%) merely agreed to the preservation of Irish. 'Preserving' the language, just entails keeping some archives. That's hardly a vociferous demand for more services.

Now where does it say that? Don't write Bullsh*t. Go on - here's the report: Report. And I've even given you the English language version - to give you a decent chance with the aul ctrl-f.

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think we could learn more by analysing web logs for indicators of the use of Irish-language web browsers. As it is, we know that far less than the 40% who 'would like to see it revived and spoken in the population', actually use the Irish language services that exist. This raises doubts in my mind concerning the actual questions that were put and what alternatives were provided.

I'll allow you to research the web logs - I myself are contented with the research that has been done already.

The Irish language services that currently exist are for the most part far from acceptable. Look at the English language side, and the Irish side of a website, and it should be immediately apparent the difference in quality and effort.

that said - I accept, and it is generally known that less then 40% can speak Irish to a level that would make them competent to use the facilities anyway.

NewDubliner wrote: »

It's never too late to put the brakes on once a money-wasting scheme has been uncovered.

There are better (and less expensive) ways for Irish to be promoted

I agree, that it's never too late to stop anything. However this is not a money wasting scheme in my humble opinion.

Do explain these better ways to promote Irish (In fact I asked this question in the Gaeilge forum under the discussed Survey - you're welcome to reply there as well.)

yoshytoshy

Cliste wrote: »

If you stop English being a compulsory language you have a deal (as much as my support is a deal)

English is so widespread in Ireland ,that it wouldn't cause a problem in an all irish school.
But this way of doing things ,should also stand for everything else aswell.
Then you might actually see the private sector benefit from the irish language , i.e. Irish language sections in dublin city centre and not the current grafitti type irish ,thats plastered everywhere in a mickey mouse fashion.

If things keep going the way they are at the moment ,irish will only get weaker and not stronger.

Grudaire

yoshytoshy wrote: »

English is so widespread in Ireland ,that it wouldn't cause a problem in an all irish school.
But this way of doing things ,should also stand for everything else aswell.
Then you might actually see the private sector benefit from the irish language , i.e. Irish language sections in dublin city centre and not the current grafitti type irish ,thats plastered everywhere in a mickey mouse fashion.

If things keep going the way they are at the moment ,irish will only get weaker and not stronger.

I meant what I said - I just want a get out clause for people who don't like English (like myself, scraped a C3 after a fair amount of work):D