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Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language
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I am not sure if this is the correct forum or not. Basically, the postman has dropped a 16 page full colour book from the ESB through the letterbox , on energy saving/ energy efficient lighting. The thing is exactly half the book is in Irish. That makes approx 12 million of pages of Irish language the ESB is printing and distributing around the country....if the ESB wants us to save energy / preserve natural resources ( ink + paper, + oil used in distribution ) perhaps they should look closer to home ? Why is half the book duplicated ? How much money is wasted by the government / semi-states doubling the amount of printed matter ?
Are you that David Herman guy from The Irish Times letters page?
Bigoted nonsense to assert your rights at the expense of my rights. Backward with aspirations to be dangerous. I speak Irish fluently. My children, should I be blessed enough to have some, will be brought up speaking Irish as their first language. My friends range from UCD to Corca Dhuibhne to Maínis and my very very large family here in Dublin all love and support the Irish language. We all vote, and we all discuss these things. We are proud to be Irish and have, collectively, no intention of surrendering real and genuine expressions of Irishness such as the Irish language just to placate English speaking monoglots who feel uncomfortable with our presence and seek to re define Irishness as a result of their own inadequacies (intellectual and otherwise).
People like you want to force people like me into submission to your monoglot anglophone culture, just as English people like you have done to Irish people for many centuries. It is racism. It is bigotry. It is prejudice. And, at very very best, it is arrogance at its most benighted and obscurantist level. Unfortunately for you, however, in 2009 Irish speakers are not some brow-beaten members of the peasantry in Conamara or Kerry. I suspect that every single one of us would be substantially more educated that you and your fellow troglodytes.
Your rights have for far too long been secured by shoving your English language down my throat, refusing to allow me use Irish in my business with this state, and attempting to deride me because I speak Irish. Finally, the Irish state is acknowledging that this is morally, ethically and political unjust and that we, too, have rights. People like you are the past. Thanks be to Jesus. I await 'incitement to hatred' legislation for people like you who threaten the linguistic and cultural rights of me, my friends and my family in Ireland.0 -
I am not sure if this is the correct forum or not. Basically, the postman has dropped a 16 page full colour book from the ESB through the letterbox , on energy saving/ energy efficient lighting. The thing is exactly half the book is in Irish. That makes approx 12 million of pages of Irish language the ESB is printing and distributing around the country....if the ESB wants us to save energy / preserve natural resources ( ink + paper, + oil used in distribution ) perhaps they should look closer to home ? Why is half the book duplicated ? How much money is wasted by the government / semi-states doubling the amount of printed matter ?
Are you that David Herman guy from The Irish Times letters page?
Bigoted nonsense to assert your rights at the expense of my rights. Backward with aspirations to be dangerous. I speak Irish fluently. My children, should I be blessed enough to have some, will be brought up speaking Irish as their first language. My friends range from UCD to Corca Dhuibhne to Maínis and my very very large family here in Dublin all love and support the Irish language. We all vote, and we all discuss these things. We are proud to be Irish and have, collectively, no intention of surrendering real and genuine expressions of Irishness such as the Irish language just to placate English speaking monoglots who feel uncomfortable with our presence and seek to re define Irishness as a result of their own inadequacies (intellectual and otherwise).
People like you want to force people like me into submission to your monoglot anglophone culture, just as English people like you have done to Irish people for many centuries. It is racism. It is bigotry. It is prejudice. And, at very very best, it is arrogance at its most benighted and obscurantist level. Unfortunately for you, however, in 2009 Irish speakers are not some brow-beaten members of the peasantry in Conamara or Kerry. I suspect that every single one of us would be substantially more educated that you and your fellow troglodytes.
Your rights have for far too long been secured by shoving your English language down my throat, refusing to allow me use Irish in my business with this state, and attempting to deride me because I speak Irish. Finally, the Irish state is acknowledging that this is morally, ethically and political unjust and that we, too, have rights. People like you are the past. Thanks be to Jesus. I await 'incitement to hatred' legislation for people like you who threaten the linguistic and cultural rights of me, my friends and my family in Ireland.0 -
Rebelheart wrote: »We are proud to be Irish and have, collectively, no intention of surrendering real and genuine expressions of Irishness such as the Irish language just to placate English speaking monoglots who feel uncomfortable with our presence and seek to re define Irishness as a result of their own inadequacies (intellectual and otherwise).
Your implication seems to be that 'Irishness' is entirely static, as though it was set in stone upon its inception, without the possibility of changing or evolving. In that case, I'm sure those 'Early Modern Irish' speakers must be fuming at your lot's attempt at re-defining 'Irishness', much in the same way that 'Middle Irish' speakers are annoyed at 'Early Modern Irish' speakers, etc.
There is a good deal of hypocrisy in your claim that English-speaking 'troglodytes' are attempting to 're-define Irishness'. Is it not you that is attempting to 're-define Irishness' by making the absurd claim that Irish-speaking Irish people are more 'real and genuine', in spite of the fact that such people are a fraction of the populace? I resent your implication and frankly, whether you like it or not, the English language is as much a part of being as Irish as the Irish language is. This evidenced by the overwhelming majority of Irish people speaking the language on an almost exlusive basis, in comparison to a miniscule amount of people speaking Irish.0 -
Your implication seems to be that 'Irishness' is entirely static, as though it was set in stone upon its inception, without the possibility of changing or evolving. In that case, I'm sure those 'Early Modern Irish' speakers must be fuming at your lot's attempt at re-defining 'Irishness', much in the same way that 'Middle Irish' speakers are annoyed at 'Early Modern Irish' speakers, etc.
There is a good deal of hypocrisy in your claim that English-speaking 'troglodytes' are attempting to 're-define Irishness'. Is it not you that is attempting to 're-define Irishness' by making the absurd claim that Irish-speaking Irish people are more 'real and genuine', in spite of the fact that such people are a fraction of the populace? I resent your implication and frankly, whether you like it or not, the English language is as much a part of being as Irish as the Irish language is. This evidenced by the overwhelming majority of Irish people speaking the language on an almost exlusive basis, in comparison to a miniscule amount of people speaking Irish.
Self-serving nonsense designed to bolster your own particularly lazy view of "Irishness" and assert a greater right for anglophones (like yourself) in this country. It is not Irish speakers who are shoving their language down your throat, but at every turn it is English speakers like you who insist that,for example, bills and other information be sent out in the English language and then proceed to scream about the cost when they are sent out in Irish as well as English. Not a care when Irish speakers have to read all this information in English. Oh no, only the real Irish like yourself deserve to have the honour of being communicated to by the ESB in your favoured language.
As I said, bigotry and ignorance.
' resent your implication and frankly, whether you like it or not, the English language is as much a part of being as Irish as the Irish language is.'
How very convenient for your current position.0 -
No offence meant by this jimmmy, but you are far from a Republican (Judging by any other encounters that I've had with you (over 1916 mainly)), and there is nothing wrong with that (I'm all for freedom of opinions etc etc), however it would strike me as if you may have a slight bias when it comes to the topic, I hope this is not the caseIt would be trivial for ESB (and other government agencies) to ask people which language they'd like to use for communication and then stick to that. Sending both languages to everyone is a waste of money. If you're happy using Irish, ESB et al should send your bill, your letters and your useless leaflets about turning off lights in Irish.
+1, however I would advocate a choice for both (many households are multi-lingual, and to be fair for a house which has more than one person!)
I do feel however that there is too much pressure on to speak English - and whenever I speak Irish I can expect anything!0 -
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Well, I don't think that's an unreasonable position, considering that English is the first language of the overwhelming majority of the population of this country.Rebelheart wrote: »...it is English speakers like you who insist that,for example, bills and other information be sent out in the English language...
We both know that the vast majority of people in this country cannot read Irish as well as they can English, so what is the point of spending time and resources sending them Irish copies of documents?Rebelheart wrote: »...and then proceed to scream about the cost when they are sent out in Irish as well as English.
How many Irish-speakers in this country are unable to read English to the same level as they can Irish? Very few I'm guessing.Rebelheart wrote: »Not a care when Irish speakers have to read all this information in English.
No, it's just plain common sense to question why duplicate documents are being sent to people in a language that they are incapable of reading to a high standard.Rebelheart wrote: »Oh no, only the real Irish like yourself deserve to have the honour of being communicated to by the ESB in your favoured language.
As I said, bigotry and ignorance.0 -
Rebelheart wrote: »Self-serving nonsense designed to bolster your own particularly lazy view of "Irishness"
To assert that a view of "irishness" is lazy or otherwise comes across as very arrogant.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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You never asked me before what nationality I am, and its none of your business. Its not relevant. What difference to you is it if I have a "Pas" ( passport ) or not ?
So I take that as no, you are not Irish. I dont give a rats ass or a damm where you are from. But in my previous post in this thread I talked about the irony of a non native Irish person complaining about the use of Irish language (which you defended for some reason). It like me going over the Belguim and complain that they use flemish. Its just very Ironic or rude even, dont you think?
Like I currently live in NZ, I pay tax but I dont give out to kiwi people I work with that the goverment is wasting money on the Maori language by doing much the same as the Irish government and the Irish language. In fact it would be considered rude and I would be told where to go.
Only a minority speak but many are very proud of it and it is their unique language that makes them different to every other nation on this earth.
Very similar to Irish in fact, the only difference is that we have to $hit on ourselves as a people and nation as the very existence of this thread proves!The point is, duplicating everything is costing the government - you and I as taxpayers - hundreds of millions in translating everything in to Irish, in additional printing and signage costs, and trying to "promote" the language. Given the state of our public finances - and my postmans back !! - perhaps a bit of common sense could prevail when in comes to the govt and semi-states delivering so much junk mail in Irish.
I agree to a point as do many others, but there is much bigger fish to fry then your anti- Irish language agenda you have going on here.
Sure discuss the waste but I dont see you posting in other waste thread like the e-voting machines.
The brochures are a waste full stop english, irish, polish or whatever they should not be sent out at all.0 -
You are perfectly entitled to question how and where your tax dollars are being spent, regardless of your nationality.Like I currently live in NZ, I pay tax but I dont give out to kiwi people I work with that the goverment is wasting money on the Maori language by doing much the same as the Irish government and the Irish language. In fact it would be considered rude and I would be told where to go.0 -
Enititled to a point.
Do you honestly expect that if I gave out to my work mates about "Maori language" waste they would say fair enough. They would give me an ear licking, give myself a name of a "know it all", "a bit of a dick" and basicly lose any friends there. It would be seen as rude.
Now if I was giving out about waste such as MP bonus's or perks then that is a different matter. But giving about Maori language waste would be seen as giving out about their culture and akin to "why should I have to pay for their culture".
Anyway it doesnt happen here as they are proud of their Maori Language something I am afriad doesnt happen in Ireland.0 -
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I think the best solution is to abandon te irish language its fcuk all use anyway. We should all speak english, then again, ban all foreign languages as well... After all we are one of few gob****e nations that dont speak there own language on a daily basis.
But then again I wonder how many jobs are supported by irish speaking publications???. Yeah fcuk them all. I am a miserable barstool who cant see the importance of his own language.0 -
I am not sure if this is the correct forum or not. Basically, the postman has dropped a 16 page full colour book from the ESB through the letterbox , on energy saving/ energy efficient lighting. The thing is exactly half the book is in Irish. That makes approx 12 million of pages of Irish language the ESB is printing and distributing around the country....if the ESB wants us to save energy / preserve natural resources ( ink + paper, + oil used in distribution ) perhaps they should look closer to home ? Why is half the book duplicated ? How much money is wasted by the government / semi-states doubling the amount of printed matter ?
Some other areas of waste you may want to consider...
Museums / Art Gallerys
A load of old crap and poncey paintings. We could sell the lot off and raise a bit more cash to give to the banks for their bailout.
Charity
Bunch of scroungers. Cancel all donations and instead spend the savings on TD's unvouched expenses.
Dublin Zoo
Whats the deal with Dublin zoo. Paying for a whole load of animals? They aren't even Irish. Or paying tax. Turn it into a big game park for American tourists. And when the last animal has been shot and stuffed, redevelop the site into a 7 star luxury golf course for the government and their buddies.0 -
It depends on the context. For example, if a utilities company in New Zealand was sending Maori information booklets to every home in the country, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for you to question this practice.Do you honestly expect that if I gave out to my work mates about "Maori language" waste they would say fair enough.0 -
It depends on the context. For example, if a utilities company in New Zealand was sending Maori information booklets to every home in the country, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for you to question this practice.
Lets turn this around - Do you think it would be fair to effectively force everyone in Ireland to use English on a daily basis? By this I mean provide no services through Irish, and finish the job the English started in eradicating the language?
By this I am not saying that they're doing it right - but your taxes can pay for making the pointless reports, and leaflets, and mine can pay for the translation:pac:0 -
Rebelheart wrote: »Are you that David Herman guy from The Irish Times letters page?
Certainly not, not thats its any of your business.0 -
Whats makes you think that ? I wrote "You never asked me before what nationality I am, and its none of your business. Its not relevant. What difference to you is it if I have a "Pas" ( passport ) or not ?"So I take that as no, you are not Irish.
You are certainly not entitled to say I am not Irish, from that.I dont give a rats ass or a damm where you are from.
Why is it of such great concern to you so?But in my previous post in this thread I talked about the irony of a non native Irish person complaining about the use of Irish language (which you defended for some reason). It like me going over the Belguim and complain that they use flemish. Its just very Ironic or rude even, dont you think?
Like I currently live in NZ, I pay tax but I dont give out to kiwi people I work with that the goverment is wasting money on the Maori language by doing much the same as the Irish government and the Irish language. In fact it would be considered rude and I would be told where to go.
Only a minority speak but many are very proud of it and it is their unique language that makes them different to every other nation on this earth.
Very similar to Irish in fact, the only difference is that we have to $hit on ourselves as a people and nation as the very existence of this thread proves!
lol lol. Not everyone who Irish has as big a "gra" for the Irish language or the cupla focail as much as you do, a chairde !0 -
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Thats not the point.0
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Thats not the point.
What is the point then?
You don't like Irish, and jump on the flimsiest reason to bash it?
ie wasting paper
I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that there is people in other colonised countries that hate their own language so much.
It seems to be a peculiarity of the Irish.0 -
Thats not the point.
I know grammer etc isn't the point, however given that you haven't dealt with many points that have been raised I see no harm in it, and I'm glad I got your attantion.Daithinski wrote: »What is the point then?
You don't like Irish, and jump on the flimsiest reason to bash it?
ie wasting paper
I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that there is people in other colonised countries that hate their own language so much.
It seems to be a peculiarity of the Irish.
+1 to this and your other posts0 -
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Yes jimmmy this does seem like skirting the issue.
Irish is the first official language of the Irish state. As long as this is the case government documents will be sent out in Irish.
So why not just argue that actual point, rather then waffling about some "wasted" paper?0 -
Daithinski wrote: »What is the point then?
As I said, the 12 million of pages of Irish language the ESB is printing and distributing around the country....if the ESB wants us to save energy / preserve natural resources ( ink + paper, + oil used in distribution ) perhaps they should look closer to home ? Why is half the book duplicated ? How much money is wasted by the government / semi-states doubling the amount of printed matter ?0 -
No.Do you think it would be fair to effectively force everyone in Ireland to use English on a daily basis?
:rolleyes:By this I mean provide no services through Irish, and finish the job the English started in eradicating the language?
Fine with me.By this I am not saying that they're doing it right - but your taxes can pay for making the pointless reports, and leaflets, and mine can pay for the translation
First of all, for the vast majority of people in this country, Irish is not their native language; English is. Irish is something that most of us leave behind once we finish school and many are glad to do so, myself included. Why? Because I knew it was going to be of absolutely no use to me outside school but mainly because I despised the classes.Daithinski wrote: »I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that there is people in other colonised countries that hate their own language so much.
Which takes me onto your claim that Irish people hate the Irish language; I don’t think that’s true. I think most people associate Irish with mind-numbing school lessons (which they probably hated – I know I did) and, having endured these lessons for the guts of twelve (?) years, it is very difficult to subsequently disassociate the language from the lessons.
What us so-called “Anglophones” do hate is being accused of some kind of cultural oppression any time we question certain practices related to the promotion or teaching of the Irish language, such as distributing Irish booklets to people who can’t read them.0 -
So I think we're in agreement, in general (ie Irish for the Gaelgeoirs, and Béarla for the Anglophones)What us so-called “Anglophones” do hate is being accused of some kind of cultural oppression any time we question certain practices related to the promotion or teaching of the Irish language, such as distributing Irish booklets to people who can’t read them.
To be fair now, I have been on the receiving end of many jokes because I like Irish - that is cultural oppression. And given that jimmmy is so very dedicated to "save energy / preserve natural resources" I'm surprised that this is the biggest problem that he could come up with.
I remember hearing complaints that a report had been translated, and nobody read it in Irish. Nobody read the fecking thing in English either - surely thats the problem0 -
No.
:rolleyes:
Fine with me.
First of all, for the vast majority of people in this country, Irish is not their native language;
No, but if you are Irish, then the Irish language belongs to your culture, along with Irish poetry, Irish art etc.
You don't have to be able to speak it. It is still there for you, as the Irish peoples native tongue. Whether you like it or not, or whether you choose to speak it not. It doesn't really matter. Those are the facts.
I don't like poetry and I couldn't really give a crap for art to be honest, but I respect the fact that these are of cultural importance . And I don't go out of my way to badmouth art and poetry at every opportunity, because I had to read Peig, or Seamus Heaney or whoever.
A small percentage of Irish people seem to have a really big chip on their shoulder about the Irish language.
Years ago, I had a teacher in Fas who had an unexplainable, irrational phobia of the Irish language and culture. He hated gaelic and hurling with an unusual passion. (so much so, that he had a yellowed article from the Irish times pinned up in his classroom, calling gaelic football "bogball" and hurling "stickfighting") I swear to god, every morning when he came into class he would have a look at it and smile!!!:eek:
He was irish himself, but apparently had some kind of self loathing / inferiority complex about being Irish drilled into him at some point.0 -
Whats makes you think that ? I wrote "You never asked me before what nationality I am, and its none of your business. Its not relevant. What difference to you is it if I have a "Pas" ( passport ) or not ?"
You are certainly not entitled to say I am not Irish, from that.
It makes a difference to the Irony of your OP.
I will still take it that you are not given you wont say either wise.
Why is it of such great concern to you so?
Why are you so reluctant to tell? Are you ashamed? It is a very simple question.lol lol. Not everyone who Irish has as big a "gra" for the Irish language or the cupla focail as much as you do, a chairde !
I know that, but you wont find the the same agenda in other countries as you would here. You are avoiding the real issues IMO.
But dont let that get away of your anti-Irish language rant.0 -
Jank, you asked a question, apparently you're not getting an answer (not that I can see the amazing relevance of the question but if you want a discussion on that given the following moderator instruction you can send me one PM about it) so move on.
Incidentally, not that it's yet arisen as an issue, my nationality is no-one's bloody business.0 -
It has no relevance at all really I am just pointing out the irony of the OP, which has obviously struck a nerve. However, saying nothing sometimes says a lot more. If you dont find it ironic thats your business. I know I do.
I will leave the matter thus "unsolved" take what may, and move on.0 -
I think it is wasteful to provide services in two languages, especially if this involves sending documentation in both to a person who only requires one or other.
The Official Languages Act has not come into full effect yet, but its full impact (dual versions of all documents, websites in both languages, computer systems fully bi-lingual) is likely to add considerably to the cost of public services.
I think the solution is certainly for people to register their language preference, but more importantly, for the full economic cost of the service to be born by the consumer. Economies of scale favour English.
This would mean that people who prefer Irish might have to pay more, but their chosen cultural identity and langauge would receive the full respect guaranteed by the Official Languages Act.0 -
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NewDubliner wrote: »I think it is wasteful to provide services in two languages, especially if this involves sending documentation in both to a person who only requires one or other.
The Official Languages Act has not come into full effect yet, but its full impact (dual versions of all documents, websites in both languages, computer systems fully bi-lingual) is likely to add considerably to the cost of public services.
I think the solution is certainly for people to register their language preference, but more importantly, for the full economic cost of the service to be born by the consumer. Economies of scale favour English.
This would mean that people who prefer Irish might have to pay more, but their chosen cultural identity and langauge would receive the full respect guaranteed by the Official Languages Act.
I though you said it well till you got to the last bit, Lets see what your writing " Because you speak a different language than me I expect you to pay for documents in your language" If this were said to the native american indian it would be registered as daft by us.
The solution is simple, and I guarantee you as a business person I would pay no more for wither copy, Ask the consumer if there preference is irish or english!0
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