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Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language

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13567…12

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    #62
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    The solution is simple, and I guarantee you as a business person I would pay no more for wither copy, Ask the consumer if there preference is irish or english!
    'The solution is simple':rolleyes: It never is.

    You're ignorant of the considerable extra cost involved in providing services in two languages and in engaging professional translation services to ensure technical & legal document repositories in two different languages are kept in synch.

    You might not be prepared to pay no more for either copy, but as a business person, you also want public services to be run cost effectively. It costs more to maintain the systems, services and documents in Irish because of economies of scale benefiting English.

    People who choose English, benefit from lower-cost services. I agree that Irish should be available, but the costs be born by those who use such services should reflect the true cost of providing them. It's a matter of supply and demand.

    Have you read the 'Official Langauges Act'? Anyone concerned about controlling the cost of public services should be concerned.


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    #63
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    No I am a nationalist but unlike those who stand up pissed in the pub at the end of the night I generally encourage and practise what I believe.

    I just wish I had the education to say this to you in irish!


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    #64
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    No I am a nationalist but unlike those who stand up pissed in the pub at the end of the night I generally encourage and practise what I believe.

    I just wish I had the education to say this to you in irish!

    Is náisiúnach mé, ach os a choinne siúd a seasann suas ag deireadh na hoíche go ginearálta spreagaim agus déanaim iarracht é a cleachtadh

    Hope that'll do! And don't be worried about gramatical correctness (No matter what the fecking teachers tell ya!)
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I think it is wasteful to provide services in two languages, especially if this involves sending documentation in both to a person who only requires one or other.

    The Official Languages Act has not come into full effect yet, but its full impact (dual versions of all documents, websites in both languages, computer systems fully bi-lingual) is likely to add considerably to the cost of public services.

    I think the solution is certainly for people to register their language preference, but more importantly, for the full economic cost of the service to be born by the consumer. Economies of scale favour English.

    This would mean that people who prefer Irish might have to pay more, but their chosen cultural identity and langauge would receive the full respect guaranteed by the Official Languages Act.

    Firstly: Are you advocating a additional tax on Irish speakers??

    Secondly: Look at the underlined bit - by not providing services in both languages you will be forcing people to use the English language, as the case is quite often at present (Try getting up to date info in Irish off any website)

    The funny thing is that if the civil service etc began hiring gaelgeoirí only we could have no duplication of services! (I am not advocating this by the way)


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    #65
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    These glossy brochures are an awful waste of resources regardless of what language they are in. They'd be better orr printing energy saving tips on toilet paper as people might actually read it.

    If they must send out these blasted things then it's probably cheaper to print the 16 pages in dual language than do an 8 page english version and a seperate 8 page irish version (which would be distributed in the repsective english/irish speaking parts of the country). One print run, one distribution policy. It's still a waste of money in any language.

    This information can be conveyed in schools/TV/print media/internet without using tonnes of paper and chemicals to produce slick brochures which seem hypocritical in themselves when the message is one of conservation!


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    #66
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Daithinski wrote: »
    No, but if you are Irish, then the Irish language belongs to your culture, along with Irish poetry, Irish art etc.
    “Your” culture? How can one claim ownership of culture?
    Daithinski wrote: »
    You don't have to be able to speak it. It is still there for you, as the Irish peoples native tongue.
    No, it is not – English is my native tongue. Irish is just something I had to do at school.
    Daithinski wrote: »
    A small percentage of Irish people seem to have a really big chip on their shoulder about the Irish language.
    Indeed; most of them are Irish-speakers.


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    #67
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    Firstly: Are you advocating a additional tax on Irish speakers??
    No.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Secondly: Look at the underlined bit - by not providing services in both languages you will be forcing people to use the English language, as the case is quite often at present (Try getting up to date info in Irish off any website)
    No I'm not proposing that we don't. Just that the additional costs be paid by those who use the services. If Irish speakers want cheaper services, they can access them in English.
    Cliste wrote: »
    The funny thing is that if the civil service etc began hiring gaelgeoirí only we could have no duplication of services! (I am not advocating this by the way)
    It would be very diificult to find the relevant qualified people with bilingualism. That's why it costs more to support more than one langauge.


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    #68
    Daithinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭Daithinski


    djpbarry wrote: »
    “Your” culture? How can one claim ownership of culture?

    Ok.... eh usually if you live and were born in a country, the culture kind of goes with it.:rolleyes:
    djpbarry wrote: »
    No, it is not – English is my native tongue. Irish is just something I had to do at school.

    No, Irish is not just something you did in school. (To you, yes.)

    Irish is the official national language of Ireland (along with English, as has been pointed out below).
    (whether you like it or not!:P)

    djpbarry wrote: »
    Indeed; most of them are Irish-speakers.

    Good one. Very droll. I walked right into that.


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    #69
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Daithinski wrote: »
    Irish is the official national language of Ireland.
    (whether you like it or not!:P)
    Wrong.

    It is an official langauge in Ireland, so is English.


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    #70
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    No.

    No I'm not proposing that we don't. Just that the additional costs be paid by those who use the services. If Irish speakers want cheaper services, they can access them in English.

    How can we charge people for using a website then?:confused:

    Not putting words in your mouth but you would tax Irish speakers, and provide them with services through Irish
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    It would be very diificult to find the relevant qualifified people with bilingualism. That's why it costs more to support more than one langauge.

    Feck bilingualism - just Irish speakers. I see no reason why we couldn't find qualified people for any department - who speak Irish (There's lots of Irish speakers currently in education, by creating jobs like this I could imagine them keeping the language up as part of their studies)
    Daithinski wrote: »
    Irish is the official national language of Ireland.
    (whether you like it or not!:P)

    Ah be careful now - they can change that:rolleyes:


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    #71
    Daithinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭Daithinski


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Wrong.

    It is an official langauge in Ireland, so is English.

    Actually its not just any old official language, its the 1st official language.


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    #72
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    How can we charge people for using a website then?:confused:
    You login to use it and the cost is charged back to you on your credit card.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Not putting words in your mouth but you would tax Irish speakers, and provide them with services through Irish
    It's not a tax if it is there is a choice to access the services at lower cost in English.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Feck bilingualism - just Irish speakers. I see no reason why we couldn't find qualified people for any department - who speak Irish (There's lots of Irish speakers currently in education, by creating jobs like this I could imagine them keeping the language up as part of their studies)
    I don't think that you fully understand what's involved in being equally proficient working in Irish and English.

    As for creating jobs, you're very brave suggesting this at a time when we're trying to cut public spending...unless of course, you agree that the Irish speakers should pay for the additional costs.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Ah be careful now - they can change that:rolleyes:
    Who is 'they'? If anything, when the Irish public realise the huge extra costs foisted on them by the 'Official Languages Act', they'll vote for it to be scrapped.


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    #73
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You login to use it and the cost is charged back to you on your credit card.

    Lol - like normally happens on the aul idirlíon!?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    It's not a tax if it is there is a choice to access the services at lower cost in English.

    Ok - it's a stealth tax
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I don't think that you fully understand what's involved in being equally proficient working in Irish and English.

    I'm talking about a workplace completely through Irish, and I think I should know, given that I worked last summer in a Gaeltacht, and am working this summer in a Gaeltacht. I think the difficulty of teaching sailing through Irish to a bunch of children qualifies me to know the difficulties of communication.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    As for creating jobs, you're very brave suggesting this at a time when we're trying to cut public spending...unless of course, you agree that the Irish speakers should pay for the additional costs.

    Huh? I didn't say - 'lets create new jobs' anywhere. I'm just suggesting that we should make the department of <insert department name> a completely as Gaeilge department. Now would you have us charging extra for people to use services from this department through English?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Who is 'they'? If anything, when the Irish public realise the huge extra costs foisted on them by the 'Official Languages Act', they'll vote for it to be scrapped.

    I meant that I was agreeing with you - that the status means nothing. However, since you've gone off and said that I'll have to reply: The Official Languages act was brought in to ensure that Irish Speakers were treated equally (I'm not going to defend every aspect of it). The case as it was was that Government departments could just speak back in English. This is Forcing Irish speakers like myself to use English.


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    #74
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    The Official Languages act was brought in to ensure that Irish Speakers were treated equally ..... The case as it was was that Government departments could just speak back in English. This is Forcing Irish speakers like myself to use English.
    That's a rich bit of spin. We know that everyone who speaks Irish can also speak English. It is therefore not discriminatory to offer most services in English only.

    Indulging your preference for using the Irish language is adding considerable costs to public administration at a time when we need to save money. I think the public mood would be right if the government was to propose repealing this law.


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    #75
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    No.

    No I'm not proposing that we don't. Just that the additional costs be paid by those who use the services. If Irish speakers want cheaper services, they can access them in English.
    It would be very diificult to find the relevant qualified people with bilingualism. That's why it costs more to support more than one langauge.

    And perhaps if rural people want access to schools and better health care they can just move to the cities and stop giving out!

    Also why is my tax paying for schools when I dont even have kids!!! I want my money back!


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    #76
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's a rich bit of spin. We know that everyone who speaks Irish can also speak English. It is therefore not discriminatory to offer most services in English only.

    Indulging your preference for using the Irish language is adding considerable costs to public administration at a time when we need to save money. I think the public mood would be right if the government was to propose repealing this law.

    Then ask your local TD to do this then and see how far you would get. I think there is bigger fish to fry regarding government waste.


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    #77
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Not to cheapen my argument but it's stuff like that that makes me question if we really have improved on the life that we had under British rule (See underlined, also see Irish History):
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's a rich bit of spin. We know that everyone who speaks Irish can also speak English. It is therefore not discriminatory to offer most services in English only.

    Indulging your preference for using the Irish language is adding considerable costs to public administration at a time when we need to save money. I think the public mood would be right if the government was to propose repealing this law.

    It is forcing people to use English.

    Now this goes down to the question of whether you think it is worthwhile to keep the Irish language at all. If you think it is discardible, then I'm unlikely to change your opinion here. However I believe different to you, and as such we will not agree.


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    #78
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Daithinski wrote: »
    Ok.... eh usually if you live and were born in a country, the culture kind of goes with it.
    Not really, no; definitions of "culture" vary from person to person. For example, some people might consider Jack Yeats' work to be an important part of Irish culture - personally I think it's rubbish. Just because you consider the Irish language to be culturally significant doesn't mean everyone else does. I would consider works produced through the medium of English to be just as culturally significant to Ireland, if not more so.
    Daithinski wrote: »
    No, Irish is not just something you did in school. (To you, yes.)
    Well, that was sort of my point :rolleyes:.
    Daithinski wrote: »
    Irish is the an official national language of Ireland (along with English, as has been pointed out below).
    Fixed that for you.


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    #79
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Cliste wrote: »
    I'm just suggesting that we should make the department of <insert department name> a completely as Gaeilge department.
    To what end?
    Cliste wrote: »
    The case as it was was that Government departments could just speak back in English. This is Forcing Irish speakers like myself to use English.
    Which is, by far, the most commonly spoken language in this country – you don’t seem to be having too much trouble conversing in English. Forcing (for want of a better word) Irish-speakers to use English seems far more reasonable than forcing English-speakers to use Irish, considering that most Irish speakers speak English anyway.


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    #80
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    . Not really, no; definitions of "culture" vary from person to person.

    Not at all. It is socially defined.

    Language is intrinsic to culture, unlike the appreciation of art. It is not in dispute in France that a Frenchman should speak French as a first language. A Frenchman who conversed in English only would be considered less French, or not French at all. (It sounds absurd to suggest an exclusively English speaking Frenchman even as a thought experiment.)

    Ergo, we can surmise that culture/language is defined by social norms, and is not really up to the individual himself. If this (absurd, non-existent) Frenchman was to speak English only, by choice, and yet believe that he was as French as everybody else he would be laughed at. Culture is not just personal choice, but socially decided.

    (In Ireland, given the "facts on the ground" of English speaking, the situation is different to France - I am arguing against the general point that culture, particularly national culture, is entirely a product of personal choice).


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    #81
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Which is, by far, the most commonly spoken language in this country – you don’t seem to be having too much trouble conversing in English. Forcing (for want of a better word) Irish-speakers to use English seems far more reasonable than forcing English-speakers to use Irish, considering that most Irish speakers speak English anyway.

    Where did I say anything about forcing you to speak Irish?

    I WANT to speak in Irish - in IRELAND. Why is it that we get rid of the English, and yet I still have to fight for cultural rights?


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    #82
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jank wrote: »
    Then ask your local TD to do this then and see how far you would get. I think there is bigger fish to fry regarding government waste.
    You're underestimating the full cost of the Official Languages Act.
    cliste wrote:
    I WANT to speak in Irish - in IRELAND. Why is it that we get rid of the English, and yet I still have to fight for cultural rights?
    You can speak Irish if you want to. It is not a cultural right to force non-Irish speakers to speak Irish to you.

    As for 'getting rid of the English', if this is what you think Irish indepenance was about, you have gravely misunderstood our history.


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    #83
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You can speak Irish if you want to. It is not a cultural right to force non-Irish speakers to speak Irish to you.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Where did I say anything about forcing you to speak Irish?

    ????????
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    As for 'getting rid of the English', if this is what you think Irish indepenance was about, you have gravely misunderstood our history.

    I didn't say that it was all that Irish independence was about - but are you going to turn around and tell me that the English didn't actively pursue a policy of killing the Irish language off?


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    #84
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Cliste wrote: »
    Where did I say anything about forcing you to speak Irish?
    You didn't. Nor did I say you did.
    Cliste wrote: »
    I WANT to speak in Irish - in IRELAND.
    Good for you. I, on the other hand, am happy enough speaking English and I will continue to question why large sums of money are being spent promoting a language that is scarcely used.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Why is it that we get rid of the English, and yet I still have to fight for cultural rights?
    :rolleyes: Please. What rights are you fighting for exactly?


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    #85
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    What rights are you fighting for exactly?

    The right to get documents in Irish. Keep up.
    I will continue to question why large sums of money are being spent promoting a language that is scarcely used.

    Would you feel the same about Maori in New Zealand, or would that be too un-PC for you. I think I know.


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    #86
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    asdasd wrote: »
    The right to get documents in Irish. Keep up.

    And the right to use Irish. I mean there are things that we must leegally do - and up to now this would have to be done in English.
    djpbarry wrote:
    You didn't. Nor did I say you did.

    Good - but NewDubliner did


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    #87
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    asdasd wrote: »
    The right to get documents in Irish.
    That could hardly be considered a 'right'.
    asdasd wrote: »
    Would you feel the same about Maori in New Zealand, or would that be too un-PC for you.
    As I already said to jank, if a similar situation arose in NZ, non-Maori speakers would be quite entitled to question why their taxes were paying for documents to be distributed nationwide in a language that the vast majority of the population do not speak. It's just. plain. daft.


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    #88
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    would be quite entitled to question why their taxes were paying for documents to be distributed nationwide in a language that the vast majority of the population do not speak

    I agree that the original documents should not be bilingual - however on request they should be available in Irish, or Maori. Maori is not even an official language, AFAIK.

    The point about Irish is this: even though most of oue ancestors spoke it, a minority do now. Given that, then, it is fair to say that Ireland has an indigenous ethno-linguistic minority, something not dissimilar to the New Zealanders.

    The indigenous part is important because I dont really believe that we should produce in Chinese ( well, except for naturalization, and immigration related documents), nor should the New Zealanders. The point is that the proctection of indigenous languages in decline needs government intervention. Who else would protect Irish except Ireland, Maori except New Zealand?

    Chinese doesnt need longterm proctection. Chinese will survive.


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    #89
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    asdasd wrote: »
    I agree that the original documents should not be bilingual - however on request they should be available in Irish, or Maori. Maori is not even an official language, AFAIK.

    The point about Irish is this: even though most of oue ancestors spoke it, a minority do now. Given that, then, it is fair to say that Ireland has an indigenous ethno-linguistic minority, something not dissimilar to the New Zealanders. The point is that the proctection of indigenous languages in decline needs government intervention. Who else would protect Irish except Ireland, Maori except New Zealand?

    Good analogy comparing the Irish language to Maori, the difference being that 'Maori' is not force fed to its school pupils (in the same way that Welsh is not force fed), thus, both Maori & Welsh command respect, acclaim & admiration, with Irish commanding everything from contempt to indifference (because its force fed)! so I say print the leaflet in English only, and if 3% of the population want to read it in Irish then maybe it could appear on the ESB website 'as gaeilge'.


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    #90
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Camelot wrote: »
    Good analogy comparing the Irish language to Maori, the difference being that 'Maori' is not force fed to its school pupils (in the same way that Welsh is not force fed), thus, both Maori & Welsh command respect, acclaim & admiration, with Irish commanding everything from contempt to indifference (because its force fed)! so I say print the leaflet in English only, and if 3% of the population want to read it in Irish then maybe it could appear on the ESB website 'as gaeilge'.

    Are you turning this into an 'irish is compulsary in school' arguement? :rolleyes:


    Surely we can print 3% of the leaflets as Gaeilge?


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    #91
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Its our official language - so does it have to be printed in IRish?

    and seeing as no one understands that, they gotta print it in english too.....


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