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Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language

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12467…12

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    #92
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Huh? What are you on about Smokey?

    I also have to question the figure of 3% that you quote.

    Check the survey that is talked about on this thread : http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055545038

    Knowing how stuff is, it's all lies, damn lies, and statistics


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    #93
    Daithinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭Daithinski


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Not really, no; definitions of "culture" vary from person to person. For example, some people might consider Jack Yeats' work to be an important part of Irish culture - personally I think it's rubbish. Just because you consider the Irish language to be culturally significant doesn't mean everyone else does.

    I never said everyone else does? What are you on about?
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I would consider works produced through the medium of English to be just as culturally significant to Ireland, if not more so.

    And your point is?
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Fixed that for you.


    This thread is getting ridiculous now. I'm not going to even look at it anymore.


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    #94
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    Camelot wrote: »
    Good analogy comparing the Irish language to Maori, the difference being that 'Maori' is not force fed to its school pupils (in the same way that Welsh is not force fed), thus, both Maori & Welsh command respect, acclaim & admiration, with Irish commanding everything from contempt to indifference (because its force fed)! so I say print the leaflet in English only, and if 3% of the population want to read it in Irish then maybe it could appear on the ESB website 'as gaeilge'.

    I beg your pardon? Welsh most certainly is force fed. You're not allowed to drop Welsh as a core subject until you're 13 (I think), and the Welsh do the dual language thing in official documents as well. The difference between here and there is that there seems to be a more genuine enthusiasm for the subject (possibly because its an overt statement of independence in a country that isn't really independent of England), and, ironically, because the Welsh don't carry the costs of it; the English do. I also happen to think Welsh is a much prettier language than Irish, and easier to learn because they made the spelling more phonetic and Anglicised to ease learning.


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    #95
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Hookey wrote: »
    I beg your pardon? Welsh most certainly is force fed. You're not allowed to drop Welsh as a core subject until you're 13 (I think).

    Yes indeed, you may drop it at 13, unless you & the parents wish the lessons to continue .................


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    #96
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,466 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Hookey wrote: »
    I also happen to think Welsh is a much prettier language than Irish, and easier to learn because they made the spelling more phonetic and Anglicised to ease learning.
    Pretty, eh?
    14b55le.jpg


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    #97
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Camelot wrote: »
    Good analogy comparing the Irish language to Maori, the difference being that 'Maori' is not force fed to its school pupils (in the same way that Welsh is not force fed), thus, both Maori & Welsh command respect, acclaim & admiration, with Irish commanding everything from contempt to indifference (because its force fed)! so I say print the leaflet in English only, and if 3% of the population want to read it in Irish then maybe it could appear on the ESB website 'as gaeilge'.

    Maori is controversial in some quarters within New Zealand. There is always a certain tension surrounding languages in any bi-lingual country.

    See the battles between Francophone's and Anglophone's in Canada for Montreal or the divisions in Belgium.

    This is much less the case in Ireland as the minority language in question is our own.
    New research finds that that 93% of the population (in 26 Counties) are pro-Irish Language.
    More...
    The report found that 40% are in favour of ‘revival’, 53% wanted ‘preservation’ according to the reasearch.
    6.7% wanted the language ‘discarded’
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0422/breaking8.htm

    We have to be open to new ideas of preserving and riviving Irish. Perhaps it shouldn’t be compulsory at school for all but instead there should be more Gaelscoileanna?

    There must be one exception to this openness. Criticisms and demands from the political heirs and apologists of the people who's policy it was to destroy the Irish language and beat it out of children should be given no consideration.


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    #98
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jank wrote: »
    And perhaps if rural people want access to schools and better health care they can just move to the cities and stop giving out!
    That would make economic sense.
    jank wrote: »
    Also why is my tax paying for schools when I dont even have kids!!! I want my money back!
    If you're lucky, those kids will pay taxes and fund your pension in your old age.


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    #99
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    If some of you folk who think there isn't enough investment in the lingo ever saw the amount of money being bandied around and wasted by the likes of Udarás, you'd blanch.


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    #100
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    If some of you folk who think there isn't enough investment in the lingo ever saw the amount of money being bandied around and wasted by the likes of Udarás, you'd blanch.

    Go on...


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    #101
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Cliste wrote: »
    Go on...

    You don't have to believe me and no, I'm not going to dob.


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    #102
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    Good - but NewDubliner did
    Cliste wrote: »
    The case as it was was that Government departments could just speak back in English. This is Forcing Irish speakers like myself to use English.
    You don't accept that people should be able to respond in English, where that is their preferred language and want to force them to respond in Irish? Or alternatively, you want extra people hired to offer you a service in Irish?


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    #103
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    You don't have to believe me and no, I'm not going to dob.

    The aliens are coming - you don't have to believe me:rolleyes:, come on I'm reasonable - just back it up.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You don't accept that people should be able to respond in English, where that is their preferred language and want to force them to respond in Irish? Or alternatively, you want extra people hired to offer you a service in Irish?

    ou don't accept that people should be able to respond in Irish, where that is their preferred language and want to force them to respond in English?


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    #104
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    This is much less the case in Ireland as the minority language in question is our own.
    How exactly does that set Ireland apart?
    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    Criticisms and demands from the political heirs and apologists of the people who's policy it was to destroy the Irish language and beat it out of children should be given no consideration.
    Anyone who pays taxes in this country is entitled to a say in how those taxes are spent, regardless of their political views.


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    #105
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    You don't accept that people should be able to respond in Irish, where that is their preferred language and want to force them to respond in English?
    You can respond in Irish but your response may not be understood if the person you are speaking to does not understand Irish.

    It's your choice, exercise your right to speak Irish or transact some business.

    Simpy put, it's cheaper to provide services in English. So, do your bit for the economy, use the cheaper option.


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    #106
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You can respond in Irish but your response may not be understood if the person you are speaking to does not understand Irish.

    It's your choice, exercise your right to speak Irish or transact some business.

    Simpy put, it's cheaper to provide services in English. So, do your bit for the economy, use the cheaper option.

    I'm lost - are you now defending that people should have the right to do their busiess i English?? This sounds like a familiar arguement (Though I'm not sure how the tables got turned)


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    #107
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Camelot wrote: »
    Good analogy comparing the Irish language to Maori, the difference being that 'Maori' is not force fed to its school pupils (in the same way that Welsh is not force fed), thus, both Maori & Welsh command respect, acclaim & admiration, with Irish commanding everything from contempt to indifference (because its force fed)! so I say print the leaflet in English only, and if 3% of the population want to read it in Irish then maybe it could appear on the ESB website 'as gaeilge'.


    Christ, you really are a terribly pig-ignorant gob****e.

    "force fed" ? Have you read any Irish history? Arsssssssehoooole.


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    #108
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    I'm lost - are you now defending that people should have the right to do their busiess i English?? This sounds like a familiar arguement (Though I'm not sure how the tables got turned)
    Yes & if people don't want to speak English (even though they can), OK, but let them accept the consequences of refusing to communicate in our common language.


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    #109
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Its a waste of money and should be shelved, with the saving directed to something useful.

    Alternatively, they could establish a voluntary fund and all the posters who think the success of the Irish language hinges on printing everything into two languages can put their money where their mouth is and pay for the privledge of it getting their junk mail in Irish.

    Of course that wont happen - politicians dont have the spheres, and people tend to get a little more careful with spending their own money, as opposed to the money of this mythical, far away and unknown "tax payer".
    Christ, you really are a terribly pig-ignorant gob****e.

    "force fed" ? Have you read any Irish history? Arsssssssehoooole.

    Thats an amazing post. Camelot is going to have to think long and hard on the points you have raised...


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    #110
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    In order for a language to survive, people must be immersed in it.

    Bilingual documentation is a small part in the role of language immersion.

    Irish is our official language, as stated in our constitution. If you don't like it, why not get onto your local TD about removing it from the constitution. Although, chances of that happening are about as good as dlofnep's chances of finishing work tonight before midnight.

    The overwhelming majority of Irish people want to preserve the Irish language, and aren't finicky enough to worry about the costs of printing bilingually.

    As always, the same crew of Sands, Donegal and Camelot are in to attack all things Irish. Who would of guessed? Irish is here to stay buckos. If you don't like it - Move to England where you won't have to worry about the Irish language, Irish culture and all things green.


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    #111
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djpbarry wrote: »
    How exactly does that set Ireland apart?
    Anyone who pays taxes in this country is entitled to a say in how those taxes are spent, regardless of their political views.

    They are entitled to say anything they want, but they are not entitled to dictate where the tax goes - the elected Government does.. And given that the majority of the population supports the language, there is great merit in using tax to fund it.


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    #112
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    In order for a language to survive, people must be immersed in it.
    :rolleyes:
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Irish is our official language, as stated in our constitution.
    That's nice, so is English.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    If you don't like it - Move to England
    :rolleyes: Is that in our constitution too?


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    #113
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    I hate those people who use the letter "v" in Irish.

    Bloody west Brits.


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    #114
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    It's a fact that a language requires immersion in order for it to survive. If you don't want to to understand the importance of immersion, that's your loss - not mine. And given that Irish is our national language, it would make perfect sense to give it a decent chance at maintaining that survival.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's nice, so is English.

    The leaflet was in English. What's your point?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Is that in our constitution too?

    No, it was a suggestion. And given that Irish is here to stay - they better get used to it.


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    #115
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    No, it was a suggestion. And given that Irish is here to stay - they better get used to it.

    Much in the way latin is here to stay. The only thing that keeps Irish on our radars at all are these fliers that get dumped in the bin. Thats a fantastic achievement for our taxes in a time when we are 30 billion short every single year.


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    #116
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sand wrote: »
    Much in the way latin is here to stay. The only thing that keeps Irish on our radars at all are these fliers that get dumped in the bin. Thats a fantastic achievement for our taxes in a time when we are 30 billion short every single year.

    I'd have a feeling that they would be dumped in the bin regardless of the language in print. So instead of using Gaeilge as a scapegoat, why not address the real issue?

    The overwhelming majority of the people in this state want to preserve the Irish language and don't mind using tax to pay for it. What's so hard to grasp about this?


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    #117
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's a fact that a language requires immersion in order for it to survive.
    That sounds somewhat coercive.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    And given that Irish is our national language
    This has been stated a few times in this thread, in such terms as to exclude the fact that English is also our national language.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    it would make perfect sense to give it a decent chance at maintaining that survival.
    That's nice, but just how much are the Irish language enthusiasts demanding be collected in taxes spent on this? And, how much of these taxes will be paid by the Irish lobby?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Irish is here to stay - they better get used to it.
    So is English.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    The overwhelming majority of the people in this state want to preserve the Irish language and don't mind using tax to pay for it. What's so hard to grasp about this?
    This is not true as you have not told the 'overwhelming majority' just how much tax they'd have to pay to fund this 'immersion' that you want to inflict on them.

    Tell us what is the cost of a professional, certified translation from English to Irish of one full page of A4?


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    #118
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You can respond in Irish but your response may not be understood if the person you are speaking to does not understand Irish.

    It's your choice, exercise your right to speak Irish or transact some business.

    Simpy put, it's cheaper to provide services in English. So, do your bit for the economy, use the cheaper option.

    Well if that is your attitude why not strip out all health care costs for the elderly and terminally ill. Why not kill off handicapped people and all un productive citizens as they are a "drain" on the economy.

    I can see it now.

    "Sick, unemployed, old....Do your bit for the economy. KILL YOURSELF!":rolleyes:


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    #119
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That would make economic sense.

    So did Communism.
    How would we get our food?

    You know the Khmer Rouge tried the opposite, forcing people to move to the countryside to force a agrarian utopia on people. That worked really well didn't it?
    Perhaps you see yourself as a certain O'Brien in 1984?:pac:

    Perhaps the educated class should only be allowed to breed too!:pac:
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    If you're lucky, those kids will pay taxes and fund your pension in your old age.

    Well as I have my own private pension, so I doubt it!

    My point still stand though. Why does my tax go to pay for schools when I don't have kids? Why if I have private health insurance that my tax goes to fund public hospitals?


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    #120
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    NewDubliner wrote: »

    This is not true as you have not told the 'overwhelming majority' just how much tax they'd have to pay to fund this 'immersion' that you want to inflict on them.

    Tell us what is the cost of a professional, certified translation from English to Irish of one full page of A4?

    How much is it so?


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    #121
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That sounds somewhat coercive.

    No, it's not. It's fact. Language immersion is required for a language to survive, and going by the latest survey - 93% of the population want the language to survive and therefore - would obviously support the idea of immersion.

    You sir, are in the minority. A very small minority.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    This has been stated a few times in this thread, in such terms as to exclude the fact that English is also our national language.

    You're still failing to make any form of a point? Where did I state that English wasn't an official language?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's nice, but just how much are the Irish language enthusiasts demanding be collected in taxes spent on this?

    What an asinine way to phrase a question. Nobody is demanding anything. Tax is available for the purpose of education - one of those areas of our native language, Irish. Given that 93% of the population support the revival of the language - it is only fair to assume that those who find the idea of bilingual documentation to be a farce are you, and maybe a pocketful of others.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    And, how much of these taxes will be paid by the Irish lobby?

    You're obviously unaware of how tax works. A man might pay tax for the purpose of healthcare - but yet, may never avail of it. Still, he does not argue because he sees it as a good thing to cater for. In the same respect, 93% of the population support the Irish language, and I would assume support Irish to receive funds in areas such as education, like many other subjects.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    This is not true as you have not told the 'overwhelming majority' just how much tax they'd have to pay to fund this 'immersion' that you want to inflict on them.

    Probably the same cost as they are paying now - as my thoughts on immersion would involve replacing 2 of 4 grammar classes with 2 immersion classes.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Tell us what is the cost of a professional, certified translation from English to Irish of one full page of A4?

    Don't know, don't care. But I'm sure the person who has a job from translating is quite happy to keep that job and I support their future translations.


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