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Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language

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    #152
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    djpbarry wrote: »
    As far as I can see, this thread is full of assumptions about support for the Irish language in this country. The difference is, my assumption is a reasonable one.

    You could always stand for election then on an anti-Irish Language platform. No doubt you'd be as successful as Robin Bury's Reform Movement. But at least you would find out quickly how misguided are your assumptions.

    In the meantime, it is indisputed that immersion is the best way to teach/learn a language. When I go into my school for English learning in Dublin, there is a plaque on the door and signs throughout the building inside demanding that students speak English there. Indeed, there is an entire language theory called CLT (Communicative Language Teaching) which is the centre of most TEFL courses across the world and is predicated upon the theory of immersion. This is basic.


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    #153
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    You could always stand for election then on an anti-Irish Language platform.
    Yet another inaccurate assumption; at what point did I state that I was “anti-Irish”?
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    No doubt you'd be as successful as Robin Bury's Reform Movement. But at least you would find out quickly how misguided are your assumptions.
    Which assumptions are these?
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    In the meantime, it is indisputed that immersion is the best way to teach/learn a language.
    Wonderful; I never said otherwise.


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    #154
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I still disagree – there is no evidence that suggests the majority of people in this country want their kids “immersed” in Irish.

    There is categoric evidence that the overwhelming majority of the population support "the preservation or revival of the Irish language".

    You're streching if you expect me to believe that parents would not support the idea of a revamp in curriculum to replace the current methods used to teach gaeilge, in favour of more functional methods such as language immersion. You don't have a leg to stand on.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    You’ve taken that 93% figure to mean whatever you want it to mean, haven’t you?

    I've taken it for what it is - "Ninety-three per cent of those taking part in a Statewide survey wish to have Irish revived or preserved" - Seems pretty favourable towards the Irish Language to me.. I don't know what you're reading.

    I think the real question is - Are you taking the figures to mean whatever you want it to mean, because no matter what way you spin it - The majority of the people on this Island support the language, and support it as part of our education.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    So those who want the language revived are actually in the minority.

    Incorrect, they are in the majority. Let's not tell fibs now, shall we?
    djpbarry wrote: »
    If I don’t like it, I can question it to my heart’s content, thanks very much.

    You can, but you'll be heavily outweighed by those who actually support the language, and thus - rendering your views obsolete.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Are you honestly telling me that no matter how much the promotion of the Irish language cost the state, you would support it unequivocally?

    No, and I haven't stated otherwise - But I do support funding for the language. That is the difference between you and me.

    djpbarry wrote: »
    As far as I can see, this thread is full of assumptions about support for the Irish language in this country. The difference is, my assumption is a reasonable one.

    Assumptions? Multiple surveys have always displayed support for the Irish language. It's clear-cut. Your assumptions are about as reasonable as using a sledgehammer to open a nut.


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    #155
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Yet another inaccurate assumption; at what point did I state that I was “anti-Irish”?

    Actions are louder than words, and your actions have very much demonstrated an Anti-Irish agenda.


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    #156
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    There is categoric evidence that the overwhelming majority of the population support "the preservation or revival of the Irish language".
    At what financial cost?

    This thread is not for or against the Irish language, it's about controlling expenditure.

    Tell us how much the OLA will cost (in euro) and how much extra tax must be levied to cover this cost?

    Or is the idea of governing the budget spent on promoting the Irish language, through transalating all official documents and services into Irish, 'anti-Irish'?


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    #157
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Incorrect, they are in the majority. Let's not tell fibs now, shall we?
    No, they’re not. The article that you are standing over quite clearly states that 40% of those surveyed would like to see the language revived (which puts them in the minority), while 53% would like to see it preserved. There is a distinct difference between those two positions.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, and I haven't stated otherwise - But I do support funding for the language.
    To what level? You stated earlier on this thread that you didn’t care how much it cost to translate documents into Irish. Are you now saying that there is an upper limit, beyond which you would question the practice?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Your assumptions are about as reasonable as using a sledgehammer to open a nut.
    The only assumption I have made is that people will not knowingly pay for something that they are incapable of reading. You think that’s an unreasonable assumption? Would you buy a book in a language that you could not read (assuming you are not learning said language)?


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    #158
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    djpbarry wrote: »
    As far as I can see, this thread is full of assumptions about support for the Irish language in this country. The difference is, my assumption is a reasonable one.

    :rolleyes: Come/Cop on, I could come up with better arguments against the Irish language.


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    #159
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Come/Cop on, I could come up with better arguments against the Irish language.
    Irish is nice, just like 'mom and apple pie'. Nobody hates it.

    I think you feel more comfortable skewing arguments as being for/against Irish rather than discussing just how much should be spent on 'immersion' (terrible marketing term: sounds like some kind of water-boarding) and implementing the Official Language Act.

    Can you tell us how much the OLA will cost when fully implemented?


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    #160
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Can you tell us how much the OLA will cost when fully implemented?

    Can you?

    (My answers are getting shorter and shorter, purely because there's nothing to deal with. If you have to use the words "It's reasonable to assume", and "The difference is my assumption is reasonable" you'd want to work on the argument)


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    #161
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I think you feel more comfortable skewing arguments as being for/against Irish rather than discussing just how much should be spent on 'immersion' (terrible marketing term: sounds like some kind of water-boarding) and implementing the Official Language Act.

    I've already explained that immersion classes would replace 2 grammar classes, so the costs would be very similar. What's the problem? We've already covered this ground.

    So just to sum this up - correct me if I'm wrong - You take issue with the fact that the Irish language receives funding from tax-payers, is that correct?


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    #162
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    I was force feed a European language up until leaving cert as I wanted to go to University. Yet nobody has a problem with that? Or do they.

    This thread has gone way off topic so let me say this.

    People have a right to complain about their tax money...to a point. But some people love to complain and complain and complain..... the Joe Duffy types.

    I asked some questions regarding my payment of tax to fund services that I will never use. Schools for kids I don't have, Public Health care when I have Private Insurance, State pensions when I have a private pension.

    But see thats being part of a western European society. I accept that. If ye don't then this isn't the thread to ask what type of society we should have. A Boston vs Berlin thread would make a good discussion but this isn't the place to have it.

    I accept that some of my tax money will go to fund these social services as it benefits our country and society as a whole. As a tax payer in Irish society one would accept that some of your tax money goes to fund one of the official language's of the state.

    I have asked how much it costs to fund the Irish language but I have seen no figures.

    However, all we see here is the usual Irish bashing. Pretty much everyone agrees that sending these leaflets in whatever language is a bit of a waste, yet this point is lost on many. Many judging by the posts here, wouldn't bat an eye lid if they only got the English version through their letter box. As if 8 pages of a piece of paper that nobody reads is infinitely better then 16 pages in 2 languages that nobody reads.

    I haven't seen a thread where someone complains about all that junk mail one gets through the letter box. 4 star pizza menus, Tesco adverts, Supervalue offers, etc.

    I haven't seen a thread where someone complains about their local TD newsletter which tells them all the great work they are doing on their behalf.

    I haven't seen a thread where someone complains about their council sending information booklets and the like regarding changes to bin collections, road works, etc.

    The common factor here is Irish and that a very minute % of tax went to fund that translation. OK as I said one has a right to complain. But those that are complaining are ranting and raving here on boards.ie while their letter box keeps getting tons of crap through it and they don't utter a decibel.

    Does that make sense?

    This is all a waste of effort. If for every post (160 so far) someone sent an email to their local TD to request new laws to restrict junk mail for environmental reason then this would have been a much better use of their time than ranting and raving here for no ends.

    By the way Singapore has 4 official languages and if you visit there you will find out that loads of "official" stuff is in 4 languages. Quite fascinating actually and it works!!

    I am sure newdubliner would like to lecture one of the most successful economies on the planet about this awfull waste:pac:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore


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    #163
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    Can you?
    No I cannot say how much it will cost as the Irish language-lobby refuses to disclose the full cost of their demands. The evasion is quite plain to see. The OLA is only partially implemented at present and costs will rise enormously as they ramp it up.

    I suggest, therefore, that we repeal the Official Language Act until such time as the full cost can be ascertained and the public can take an informed decision about your plans to 'immerse' them.
    dlofnep wrote:
    You take issue with the fact that the Irish language receives funding from tax-payers, is that correct?
    No, that's not quite correct. I take issue that the likely huge cost of implementing the Official Languages Act has not been quantified. I don't have a problem with spending some money on Irish. I just want to know how much it will cost and I want that cost controlled. The public should be enabled to make an informed choice as to how much is too much.

    We're facing a difficult economic time, one significant saving that we can make in the cost of public administration is to conduct business in English.

    It's our common language.


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    #164
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I suggest, therefore, that we repeal the Official Language Act until such time as the full cost can be ascertained and the public can take an informed decision about your plans to 'immerse' them.

    Yes, sure isn't that the entire point of rights; they should be discarded when things get tough. Meanwhile, let's just shut down all the gaelscoileanna and shove the students into English speaking schools for the greater economies of scale, you see. Then remove Irish from all signposts, streetnames and the like just to save money on all that needless ink. Then demand that bilingual notepaper be abandoned to save more money on ink. Ad infinitum. This is all just about ramming the English language down Irish speakers throats at every turn. Let's just scrap the OLA and resurrect glorious English legislation such as the Act for English Order, Habit and Language from 1537 and sort out the remaining "backward" wilde Irishe in 2009. Ah the tolerance of the anti-Irish brigade - up there with the English anyday.



    And as for your opposition to language immersion in schools when it comes to Irish, that's going against all the leading theories on how language should be learnt - including your beloved English language. Class plans in every single TEFL course in the world revolve around the concept of 'immersion'. This is easily verifiable, but you seem to have no problem with 'plans to "immerse"' students in English, French or other classes. I wonder what really is your agenda here - not.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    No, that's not quite correct. I take issue that the likely huge cost of implementing the Official Languages Act has not been quantified. I don't have a problem with spending some money on Irish. I just want to know how much it will cost and I want that cost controlled.

    I'm sure you could do a FOI on it if you were really interested - but then you would have to find another line to rail against the Irish language. I suspect that your definition of "spending some money" on Irish would be equivalent to handing out lollipops to children and patting yourself on the back saying how open-minded, generous and liberal you are to us Irish speakers. Ah yes, all of which sounds rather English to me, "New Dubliner" (British yourself?)
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    We're facing a difficult economic time, one significant saving that we can make in the cost of public administration is to conduct business in English..

    Well, give me back all my taxes. My family will join me. As will my very large group of friends and associates. I have no intention of paying for the luxuries of bigoted anti-Irish types who believe the Irish language is a luxury and the rights of Irish speakers to have even an ESB report in Irish is too much. Pathetic. Small minded and sheer bigotry. And there is an enormous amount of people in this society who will support us, as will linguistics and human rights bodies across the world. Your agenda will fail because the ideas underlying it are morally repugnant. Meanwhile, I'm sure you have no problem with your taxes being spent on teaching English to immigrants and providing diverse payments to all sorts of non-Irish people to live in this country - money which far exceeds anything spent on the Irish language. No, that's grand. Just bash the natives and Irish culture.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    It's our common language.

    Actually, Irish is the "common language" of the Irish people and has been the spoken language of the vast majority of people in this country for millenia longer than English has been here even in the so-called "English pale". It is historical revisionism at its most denial level to say otherwise. English is a new language in this society, only spoken by the majority since the 19th century. Most Irish people know this which is why this state has a strong political onus on it to support and promote the language - as inconvenient as this clearly is for some people.


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    #165
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Ah yes, all of which sounds rather English to me, "New Dubliner" (British yourself?)
    And yet, here you are debating in English, on an English language forum. What are you, some sort of traitor? ARE YOU BRITISH? ARE YOU???

    Note to those suffering from an irony deficiency: the above was sarcasm.

    If you're incapable of debating a topic you feel strongly about without dragging it down to a personal level, don't bother posting.


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    #166
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Cliste wrote: »
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Can you tell us how much the OLA will cost when fully implemented?
    Can you?

    (My answers are getting shorter and shorter, purely because there's nothing to deal with…
    Nothing to deal with? You’ve just been asked a perfectly reasonable question, you’re afraid of what the answer might be (i.e. a very large sum of money), so you’re just going to stick your fingers in your ears, pretend you can’t hear and accuse anyone who continues this line of questioning of having some sort of agenda, which presumable involves the eradication of the Irish language.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    You take issue with the fact that the Irish language receives funding from tax-payers, is that correct?
    The issue is the level of funding (and the amount of waste that is clearly visible), not the funding itself.


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    #167
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    jank wrote: »
    I asked some questions regarding my payment of tax to fund services that I will never use. Schools for kids I don't have, Public Health care when I have Private Insurance, State pensions when I have a private pension.
    Yeah, people never complain about their taxes being gobbled up by the HSE or anything like that, do they?
    jank wrote: »
    I have asked how much it costs to fund the Irish language but I have seen no figures.
    That’s sort of the problem, isn’t it? There seems to be an unswerving support for promoting the language, regardless of cost. That, in my opinion, is pretty daft.
    jank wrote: »
    However, all we see here is the usual Irish bashing. Pretty much everyone agrees that sending these leaflets in whatever language is a bit of a waste, yet this point is lost on many.
    No it isn’t. As you say, pretty much everyone agrees that the leaflets are a waste.
    jank wrote: »
    I haven't seen a thread where someone complains about all that junk mail one gets through the letter box. 4 star pizza menus, Tesco adverts, Supervalue offers, etc.

    I haven't seen a thread where someone complains about their local TD newsletter which tells them all the great work they are doing on their behalf.
    You haven’t been looking very hard – the subject of junk mail comes up fairly regularly over on the Green Issues forum.
    jank wrote: »
    The common factor here is Irish and that a very minute % of tax went to fund that translation.
    How much is “a very minute %”?
    jank wrote: »
    But those that are complaining are ranting and raving here on boards.ie...
    If anyone’s ranting, it’s posters such as Rebelheart, who refuse to listen to anyone questioning the state’s commitment to the promotion of the Irish language.
    jank wrote: »
    If for every post (160 so far) someone sent an email to their local TD to request new laws to restrict junk mail for environmental reason then this would have been a much better use of their time than ranting and raving here for no ends.
    How do you know I have not? How do you know that I have not made every effort to ensure that junk mail is not delivered to my home?


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    #168
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Then remove Irish from all signposts, streetnames and the like just to save money on all that needless ink.
    Surely that would cost money, rather than save it?
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    And as for your opposition to language immersion in schools when it comes to Irish…
    You might point out where this opposition was stated?
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I have no intention of paying for the luxuries of bigoted anti-Irish types who believe the Irish language is a luxury and the rights of Irish speakers to have even an ESB report in Irish is too much.
    As I’ve already stated, you can have your bill in any language you like – I really don’t care. I just don’t see why I should have to pay for it.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Actually, Irish is the "common language" of the Irish people and has been the spoken language of the vast majority of people in this country for millenia longer than English has been here even in the so-called "English pale".
    I don’t know anyone who has been speaking a language for millennia.


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    #169
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    There is a way of empirically testing how much people want to be immersed in Irish.

    Get an Irish language forum set up on boards.ie and Irish speakers can immerse themselves in there.

    We can see how much traffic and users it gets.


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    #170
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    dresden8 wrote: »
    There is a way of empirically testing how much people want to be immersed in Irish.

    Get an Irish language forum set up on boards.ie and Irish speakers can immerse themselves in there. We can see how much traffic and users it gets.


    Well, it seems at the moment it's getting more visits than any of the other language forums there. But of course by your thinking we should test how much children like "immersion" in maths, science or any other subject when they are at school. I can see the kids crying out and running over each other to get into the classrooms of Ireland, all classrooms except Irish of course.

    This resistance to immersion in Irish language classes at school is sheer bigotry when none of you have problems with similar immersion in all other school subjects, particularly language classes.


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    #171
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    djpbarry wrote: »
    As I’ve already stated, you can have your bill in any language you like – I really don’t care. I just don’t see why I should have to pay for it.

    Well, as compelling as that logic is I don't see why I should have to pay for your English language version, or indeed...let me see... anything else in Irish society that I don't agree with (this argument really does get obtuse beyond words, so congratulations on using it).

    djpbarry wrote: »
    I don’t know anyone who has been speaking a language for millennia.


    Oddly enough I don't either, but I do know that Irish people have been speaking Irish for millenia. Surprisingly enough, this generation is not the sole generation of Irish people. The Irish people have, wonder of wonders, been around for millenia. Crazy, eh?


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    #172
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    I think us tax payers have every right to question how our money is being spent especially on the Irish language.
    How is this tax payers money effecting the mentality of a minority in this country. If you ask me I think the Native Irish speaker (a minority) consider themselves a Superior race in this country. - Rebelheart


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    #173
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    Rebelheart your not blathnaid ni chofaigh... are you?


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    #174
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    b12mearse wrote: »
    I think us tax payers have every right to question how our money is being spent especially on the Irish language.
    How is this tax payers money effecting the mentality of a minority in this country. If you ask me I think the Native Irish speaker (a minority) consider themselves a Superior race in this country. - Rebelheart

    Well, I don't fully understand much of that, especially the second sentence. Second, what an irony that an English speaker in Ireland is now accusing an Irish speaker of claiming superiority. Maybe you'd like to write your own Irish history book because it certainly is a turn up for all the books ever written on the topic of herrenvolk mentalities in Ireland.

    Well done.


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    #175
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    b12mearse wrote: »
    Rebelheart your not blathnaid ni chofaigh... are you?

    Why is your English so abysmal? I suppose if you are ( i.e. you're) having difficulty with English, then another language would just be a bit too much.


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    #176
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    djpbarry - you are asking me to do research that you think will help your argument - surely you should be the one to look it up. I'm not afraid of the answer in fact I'd be interested in the answer.
    dresden8 wrote: »
    There is a way of empirically testing how much people want to be immersed in Irish.

    Get an Irish language forum set up on boards.ie and Irish speakers can immerse themselves in there.

    We can see how much traffic and users it gets.

    Teach na Gealt gets a steady trade (not huge, but steady - a good few posters)


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    #177
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    This resistance to immersion in Irish language classes at school is sheer bigotry...
    What resistance?
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Well, as compelling as that logic is I don't see why I should have to pay for your English language version…
    Let’s assume for a moment that everyone in the country needs an electricity bill. Let’s also assume, for the sake of simplicity, that everyone is an ESB customer. The most cost-effective means of providing the service is to provide everyone with a bill in English because the overwhelming majority of people in this country speak English. Now, if people wish to have their bill provided in a second language (any language), then it is obviously going to cost more, isn’t it? Why should all of ESB’s customers pay for a minority to have their bill in a second language when they are quite capable of reading the English version?

    *Cue more accusations of bigotry, oppression, etc.*
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Oddly enough I don't either, but I do know that Irish people have been speaking Irish for millenia. Surprisingly enough, this generation is not the sole generation of Irish people. The Irish people have, wonder of wonders, been around for millenia. Crazy, eh?
    Crazy? No. Completely irrelevant to the discussion? Yes.


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    #178
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    djpbarry wrote: »
    *Cue more accusations of bigotry, oppression, etc.*

    You have asked for the figures for how much this costs. Please come back when you have them.

    I would also like to add that up to now I am (I think) the only one to link to any kind of evidence.


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    #179
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Cliste wrote: »
    You have asked for the figures for how much this costs.
    I don’t think I did, but anyway…

    Corporate Translation Services are a Dublin-based company who offer English-Irish translations starting from €0.14 per source word. So the translation of a short notice (say 200 words) would set you back a minimum of €28 – that ain’t cheap.

    While not in the same area, but still on the subject of translating documents into Irish, I’ve also come across an article from European Economic Review (Fidrmuc & Ginsburgh, 2007; attached for those who can’t access online) which states the following:
    The additional annual costs incurred by the EU due to the addition of Irish have been estimated as 3.5 million euros (see Directorate-General for Translation, 2005b). This figure does not include costs of recruiting and training of the estimated 29 new translators and interpreters, which the Irish government offered to bear alone, or any provision for the cost of the physical infrastructure and overhead of the translation and interpreting operations. The figure may also increase further over time since the introduction of Irish is to be phased in over a period of five years after 1st January 2007 (Directorate-General for Translation, 2005b)—but no further estimates of the long-term impact of this change are available. Adding the 3.5 million to the total cost bill and assuming 21 official languages instead of 20 results in the average annual cost per language falling to 52.4 million euros. Correspondingly, the costs per disenfranchised person for the various languages fall slightly (e.g. the cost for Italian falls from 2.0 to 1.9, the cost for Maltese falls from 831 to 792). According to the survey on linguistic skills, 3.1% of the Irish population (corresponding to approximately 115 thousand persons) speak Irish while having no knowledge of English, French or German). Therefore, assuming the average annual cost figure of 52.4 million applies also to Irish, the annual cost per disenfranchised Irish speaker becomes 457 euros.
    Do you think that’s money well spent? How many Irish speakers (who cannot read English) do you suppose will be reading these documents?


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    #180
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Why is your English so abysmal? I suppose if you are ( i.e. you're) having difficulty with English, then another language would just be a bit too much.

    Enough said. I can speak Irish fluently but I don't belong to the Native ruling class.


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    #181
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Why is your English so abysmal? I suppose if you are ( i.e. you're) having difficulty with English, then another language would just be a bit too much.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If you're incapable of debating a topic you feel strongly about without dragging it down to a personal level, don't bother posting.
    Did I stutter?


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