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Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language

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    #182
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    I have to leave now, I have to be educated to have an opinion according to Rebelheart


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    #183
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    In case it wasn't obvious, the instruction to avoid personalising the debate applies across the board.


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    #184
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    You have asked for the figures for how much this costs. Please come back when you have them
    That's not how things work in 2009.

    You want us to pay for something, you have to tell us the price first, in Euro, to the nearest million will do. But with details of how calculated.

    Until then, no more money.


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    #185
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's not how things work in 2009.

    You want us to pay for something, you have to tell us the price first, in Euro, to the nearest million will do. But with details of how calculated.

    Until then, no more money.

    Last time I checked this was a forum. As such we are debating the topic as introduced by jimmmy.

    I amn't actually requesting something off you, we are discussing something. :rolleyes:


    And now djp I'm not sure if I've made my position on the topic clear:
    - Any document should be available through Irish should someone request for it
    - More importantly all forms and services etc should be available through Irish
    - Translation should occur after a demand is deemed to exist (I don't think any Irish speakers give a damn about half the EU reports)
    - We should stop making half of the documents in the first place (if it's barely read in English or Irish why is it there?)


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    #186
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    Last time I checked this was a forum. As such we are debating the topic as introduced by jimmmy.
    jimmmy put this question:
    jimmmy wrote:
    "How much money is wasted by the government / semi-states doubling the amount of printed matter ?"

    You demand the following:
    Cliste wrote: »
    Any document should be available through Irish should someone request for it.... all forms and services etc should be available through Irish

    The cost of your demands is very much on topic:


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    #187
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I say put more funds into Gaeilge, and less funds into English. Problem solved.


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    #188
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Cliste wrote: »
    Any document should be available through Irish should someone request for it
    At the taxpayers expense?
    Cliste wrote: »
    More importantly all forms and services etc should be available through Irish
    Regardless of cost?


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    #189
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    jimmmy put this question:

    You demand the following:

    The cost of your demands is very much on topic:

    So why do I have to find them? Where did I 'demand' this? Stop putting words into my mouth.

    I don't see whats unreasonable about what I would like to see anyway.
    Jimmmy wrote:
    "How much money is wasted by the government / semi-states doubling the amount of printed matter ?"

    As much as it costs to send it to you, NewDubliner, and Camelot!? :pac:


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    #190
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    djpbarry wrote: »
    At the taxpayers expense?
    Regardless of cost?

    Surprisingly Irish speakers pay tax too :eek:


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    #191
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Demand: to ask for with proper authority; claim as a right
    Cliste wrote: »
    So why do I have to find them? Where did I 'demand' this? Stop putting words into my mouth.
    :confused: You don't demand that forms and dervices be made available in Irish? What was your intended meaning when you used the word 'should'?
    Cliste wrote: »
    I don't see whats unreasonable about what I would like to see anyway.
    The cost?


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    #192
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    djpbarry wrote: »
    At the taxpayers expense?

    Yes. That's generally how things are paid for.. And given that the taxpayers aren't bothered about it - Who cares?


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    #193
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Yes. That's generally how things are paid for.. And given that the taxpayers aren't bothered about it - Who cares?
    Would that be because the full cost of the OLA has been concealed from the public and will only become known after millions have been wasted on it?


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    #194
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    You're demanding the figures off me - just find them yourself and stop whinging - I myself am happy that a small portion of my tax is spent on providing services in Irish
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Would that be because the full cost of the OLA has been concealed from the public and will only become known after millions have been wasted on it?

    It's not a waste


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    #195
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Would that be because the full cost of the OLA has been concealed from the public and will only become known after millions have been wasted on it?

    It is your opinion that it is wasted, I disagree. Infact, I think they should put more funds into language development for Gaeilge once the economy turns around.


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    #196
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Would that be because the full cost of the OLA has been concealed from the public?

    Please Back that up (Can't believe that I didn't notice this earlier).


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    #197
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Cliste wrote: »
    Surprisingly Irish speakers pay tax too :eek:


    And judging by the considerably better standard of education possessed by the average Irish speaker, the average Irish speaker is paying more tax than the average monoglot English speaker.


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    #198
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    That's not how things work in 2009.

    You want us to pay for something, you have to tell us the price first, in Euro, to the nearest million will do. But with details of how calculated.

    Until then, no more money.


    And the "us" would be who? Maybe you, too, should stand for election on your anti-Irish language platform? I note you still haven't exercised your right for a FOI request to answer your questions. What's keeping you if you are, as you claim, interested in the "cost" of the OLA?

    ....


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    #199
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Until then, no more money.

    You dont get to decide that.


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    #200
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I say put more funds into Gaeilge, and less funds into English. Problem solved.


    Yes, but when the entire country of Ireland was put, via conquest and dispossession, into supporting English and associating it with power, I think our enlightened and visionary correspondents will like to brush over the ineffably greater amount of money that has been invested in the English language and English culture generally in Ireland.


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    #201
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    Please Back that up (Can't believe that I didn't notice this earlier).
    The absence of any details of the cost and the considerable reluctance of the act's supporters to discuss the cost?
    rebelheart wrote:
    And the "us" would be who? Maybe you, too, should stand for election on your anti-Irish language platform?
    I'm not anti-Irish. Unless that is, it is anti-Irish to be concerned about how taxes are spent. I do hope that you accept that Irish people who don't speak Irish are just as Irish as you are.
    asdasd wrote:
    You dont get to decide that.
    The idea of not committing to projects until the cost is know is quite sensible don't you think?


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    #202
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The absence of any details of the cost and the considerable reluctance of the act's supporters to discuss the cost?

    ??????????????????????
    Me, Myself, and not Irene (Post 176) wrote:
    djpbarry - you are asking me to do research that you think will help your argument - surely you should be the one to look it up. I'm not afraid of the answer in fact I'd be interested in the answer.

    Find them yourself, and stop claiming victory.


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    #203
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    dlofnep wrote: »
    And given that the taxpayers aren't bothered about it - Who cares?
    I'm a taxpayer and I care. In fact, I'm sure most taxpayers care about how their taxes are spent, wouldn't you agree?

    I notice that you chose to ignore the questions I raised here.
    Cliste wrote: »
    I myself am happy that a small portion of my tax is spent on providing services in Irish
    How do you know it's small?


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    #204
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I'm a taxpayer and I care.

    But not enough to do your own FOI request. What are you afraid of?


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    #205
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    But not enough to do your own FOI request. What are you afraid of?
    An FOI request would have to be made to each and every department and will, at best discover some of the existing costs.

    What is provided for in the OLA exposes us to much larger costs than anything suffered so far and a FOI request will not reveal it unless the future implementations in each department and agency have already been budgeted.

    What the Irish language lobby is hoping for is that by the time the money is spent that many of their members will have benefited from lucrative translation contracts at {insert amount here} per page, or better still, will have permanent, unsackable, jobs, it will be just another one of those C&AG's reports showing lots of money spent & nothing much to show for it.


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    #206
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    An FOI request would have to be made to each and every department and will, at best discover some of the existing costs.

    So, let's get this clear: you are giving out to others here for not telling you how much it will cost and then admit that it's not actually known. So, you are in a nutshell fearing the unknown?!

    NewDubliner wrote: »
    What is provided for in the OLA exposes us to much larger costs than anything suffered I]mar dheá[/I so far

    And your evidence for this unknown quantity is? How absolutely revealing to know you are "suffering" because you can't force Irish speakers to speak English in their communication with state departments and read all state documentation in English.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    What the Irish language lobby is hoping for is that by the time the money is spent that many of their members will have benefited from lucrative translation contracts at {insert amount here} per page, or better still, will have permanent, unsackable, jobs, it will be just another one of those C&AG's reports showing lots of money spent & nothing much to show for it.

    And your evidence for this comes from your strong connections with this "Irish language lobby"? Or is it from your lengthy conversations in Club an Chonradh or your regular tuning-in to Raidió na Gaeltachta or....

    Just where are you getting such wonderful insights into the thoughts of the "Irish language lobby"? Amazing.


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    #207
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    An FOI request would have to be made to each and every department and will, at best discover some of the existing costs.

    Are you sure - have you even asked O'Cuiv's department, or is this an assumption?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    What is provided for in the OLA exposes us to much larger costs than anything suffered so far and a FOI request will not reveal it unless the future implementations in each department and agency have already been budgeted.

    Big words - care to elaborate?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    What the Irish language lobby is hoping for is that by the time the money is spent that many of their members will have benefited from lucrative translation contracts at {insert amount here} per page, or better still, will have permanent, unsackable, jobs, it will be just another one of those C&AG's reports showing lots of money spent & nothing much to show for it.

    Surely you should read the thread to find a potential price :rolleyes:

    What I want is the ability to do my business through Irish - nothing else.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I notice that you chose to ignore the questions I raised here.

    Right (To be honest most of this is aimed at dlofnep, but hey I'm a fan of theirs) - Preservation of the language needs to be facilitated - for example by allowing prople to do their business through Irish

    You then give out about a figure that I'm apparently hiding up my sleeve - perhaps do as Rebelheart asks - FOI it, give the civil servents a real FOI instead of the stupid ones the TD's ask even though most of the info's in the public domain.

    And then you proceed to openly assume things.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    How do you know it's small?

    Cause I'm a genius


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    #208
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    So, let's get this clear: you are giving out to others here for not telling you how much it will cost and then admit that it's not actually known. So, you are in a nutshell fearing the unknown?!
    In these times, we should all fear cost over-runs - PPARS, Dublin Port Tunnel for example. So, let's decide how much will be spent and how much extra tax will be needed to fund the objectives of the OLA, and then lwe can take an informed decision.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    because you can't force Irish speakers to speak English in their communication with state departments and read all state documentation in English.
    This is not correct. I would be quite happy for Irish speakers to enjoy these services as long as they pay the additional costs themselves. It's quite uncivic of them to insist on provision in Irish when they are quite capable of utilising the more cost-effective English services.
    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Just where are you getting such wonderful insights into the thoughts of the "Irish language lobby"? Amazing.
    To solve any mystery, 'follow the money', as they say.


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    #209
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I would be quite happy for Irish speakers to enjoy these services as long as they pay the additional costs themselves.


    Ah, very funny. You're trolling! My silly.


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    #210
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Ah, very funny. You're trolling! My silly.
    Banned for a week. The rules apply to Irish speakers too.


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    #211
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The rules apply to Irish speakers too.

    Have they ever not?!


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