Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Energy savings, the ESB and Irish language

Options
1…6791112

Comments

  • Options
    #242
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    New dubliner keeps popping up in my mailbox. i am seriously conviced this is an arguement about the irish language rather than irish documents.

    Irish is hear to stay. You wont change it. I would consider the real waste is the goverment failing to roll out irish nationally

    But here is the funny thing you actually fail to see. If by some deed of science dr spock beamed irish into all irish brains in the morning and we all spoke flunt irish. The goverment would then be producing a 14 page booklet in english to support the minority communities. If you were against this you would be judged as racist and anti semedic.

    So why do you object to the national language. A waste of money! So as someone said Dublin Zoo, I dont go! The national Gallery. i dont go! You get the jist.

    Its all about compramise and guess what. I have actually done a bit of research. This book is actually produced in 2 languages, english on one side irish on the other why???? cause it saved money on printing 2. There you go saving already.

    Anybody finally find this arguement boreing to the point they just delete the messages!


  • Options
    #243
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    No, it adds to the cost of public administration at a time when we're trying to reduce them. It is not essential for these services to be in Irish. We know that all Irish speakers have a very good command of English (our common language), some are quite expert in its lower forms too.

    By your logic, they should just make English the sole language in na Gaeltachtaí. Why on earth would they want a document in English when their first language is Irish? I don't even come from a native Irish speaking household, but I still prefer my documents to be in Irish.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The passing of a law obliging all government departments and bodies to provide documents and services in Irish? A law which sets no limit on the cost? A blank cheque for Irish?

    And this is awesome. It shows real backbone for support for the language. It makes you bitter, doesn't it? It makes dlofnep quite content.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The Irish lobby has been very evasive on this point. Nobody on the Irish side is prepared to set a limit on how much will be spent on services that will only be used by a small number of people.

    Given that none of us is in a position to accurately sum up the cost of every nuance related to Irish - why would we bother? I would say a "reasonable" amount of funding.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    There may be goodwill for the preservation of Irish but there is no evidence of demand for services in Irish.

    I demand it. There. Demand for services in Irish.


  • Options
    #244
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    By your logic, they should just make English the sole language in na Gaeltachtaí.
    I have no idea how you could construe that. If people want to speak Irish to each other, nobody can or should stop them.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Why on earth would they want a document in English when their first language is Irish?
    Because it is available a less expense to the public than if it were also in Irish.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't even come from a native Irish speaking household, but I still prefer my documents to be in Irish.
    So it's just a matter of what you like and prefer. And you want the taxpayer to accomodate your preference. It's not as if you only spoke Irish and could not access state services because they're only in English.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    And this is awesome. It shows real backbone for support for the language.
    Yet another money squandering scheme from Fianna Fail. Most people are unaware if it and when they do realise how much it will cost, the response will be awesome. But no dount, we'll only know the final bill after the Irish lobby and its cronies have profited from it.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    It makes dlofnep quite content.
    Very LoTR.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I would say a "reasonable" amount of funding.
    I agree, so let's start cutting back the budget and amend the OLA to limit its scope to just popular forms and documents?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    I demand it. There. Demand for services in Irish.
    Has it ever been market researched? How many people have said that if services were available in English and in Irish, they would choose the Irish ones?


  • Options
    #245
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I have no idea how you could construe that. If people want to speak Irish to each other, nobody can or should stop them.

    Um, by forcing them to read English versions of print just "because" they can speak English - means that you are diluting the nature of na Gaeltachtaí.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    So it's just a matter of what you like and prefer. And you want the taxpayer to accomodate your preference. It's not as if you only spoke Irish and could not access state services because they're only in English.

    Yes, I do want the taxpayer to accommodate it. And I am greatful for it. I am greatful that even today - the Irish public supports the Irish language, in both the public domain and as part of our education. You don't - I understand this.. But the majority of the public do.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Yet another money squandering scheme from Fianna Fail. Most people are unaware if it and when they do realise how much it will cost, the response will be awesome. But no dount, we'll only know the final bill after the Irish lobby and its cronies have profited from it.

    It has nothing to do with Fianna Fáil. I doubt you'll find any parties, from little to large in Ireland who would oppose funding of the Irish Language.. But if you find one, be sure to vote for them and make your voice heard.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I agree, so let's start cutting back the budget and amend the OLA to limit its scope to just popular forms and documents?

    No - Let's continue to fund the language, and ensure it lives up to it's title - The official language of Ireland. But once again, if you have an issue with that - I suggest you take it up with your local TD and see if they can remove Irish from the general scheme of things.


  • Options
    #246
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I am greatful that even today - the Irish public supports the Irish language, in both the public domain and as part of our education. You don't - I understand this.. But the majority of the public do.
    Then, why do the majority of people NOT speak Irish? If the feeling is as strong as you say, people would have mastered the langauge decades ago. The listenership ratings of TG4 and RnaG very much in a minority, does this not tell you something?

    I think you're confusing the unquestionable goodwill most people have towards Irish with any commitment by the same people to adopt it as a spoken langauge.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    who would oppose funding of the Irish Language.. see if they can remove Irish from the general scheme of things.
    You deliberately misinterpret my position as it's easier for you to attack someone you think opposes Irish, than someone who wants value for money for the taxpayer and who is opposed, not to Irish, but to wasteful, spendthrift, unlimited commitments.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #247
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Shouldn't this tirade of a thread be 'as gaeilge'?


  • Options
    #248
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Shouldn't this tirade of a thread be 'as gaeilge'?

    If we had it as Gaeilge it would solve having to listen to newDubliner, Sand etc - however I think we'd all be in agreement, and so there would be nothing to discuss.

    However if you're trying to catch us out - for not sprechen die Irische. Then hop over to Teach na Gealt, and you can check for yourself

    (I'm impressed that this is the first post - normally it surfaces in the first few pages)


  • Options
    #249
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Shouldn't this tirade of a thread be 'as gaeilge'?
    I think the sacred cow (Irish) has just met the elephant in the room (the hugely costly OLA).:D


  • Options
    #250
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Then, why do the majority of people NOT speak Irish? If the feeling is as strong as you say, people would have mastered the langauge decades ago. The listenership ratings of TG4 and RnaG very much in a minority, does this not tell you something?

    I think you're confusing the unquestionable goodwill most people have towards Irish with any commitment by the same people to adopt it as a spoken langauge.

    You're changing the debate here now. I don't see how the provision of services as Gaeilge for those that want them is going to somehow force Irish upon you. It facilitates those that want to operate through Irish, but are currently forced to work through English
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You deliberately misinterpret my position as it's easier for you to attack someone you think opposes Irish, than someone who wants value for money for the taxpayer and who is opposed, not to Irish, but to wasteful, spendthrift, unlimited commitments.

    It's truely not unlimited though (as I've said before, and which you kindly ignored). Imagine we spent 1 million (figures plucked from nowhere) on documents which are available to the public. Then more then it's likely that less than 100,000 will be spent on translation of them.

    The only way that we can spent a billion on translation is if we spend 10 billion on pointless documents [I've joined you in the realms of assumption for my 10-1 figure, but given the red tape that goes into making any public documents (consultation, several staff to look at it, design etc) I can imagine €280 being spent on making the page (which can be translated for €28)]
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I think the sacred cow (Irish) has just met the elephant in the room (the hugely costly OLA).:D

    Can we all throwing about statements of our victory in the discussion - or are you the only one allowed to do it?


  • Options
    #251
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Cliste wrote: »
    If we had it as Gaeilge it would solve having to listen to newDubliner, Sand etc - however I think we'd all be in agreement, and so there would be nothing to discuss.

    However if you're trying to catch us out - for not sprechen die Irische. Then hop over to Teach na Gealt, and you can check for yourself

    (I'm impressed that this is the first post - normally it surfaces in the first few pages)

    I've three other languages in addition to English. None of them is a Gaelic language but they are all useful to me. If Irish wasn't force-fed to me when I was in secondary school (during the 80s) maybe I would have had more enthusiasm in learning it and wouldn't have ditched it as soon as I could. There are other ways than chucking money at it willy-nilly.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #252
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Why would you start with this:
    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Shouldn't this tirade of a thread be 'as gaeilge'?

    When you actually have more to say?
    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    I've three other languages in addition to English. None of them is a Gaelic language but they are all useful to me. If Irish wasn't force-fed to me when I was in secondary school (during the 80s) maybe I would have had more enthusiasm in learning it and wouldn't have ditched it as soon as I could. There are other ways than chucking money at it willy-nilly.

    Irish is useful to me, French and German on the other hand... but we all pick out own paths in life.

    This is not throwing money at it willy nilly - it is the provision of services through Irish. So if I want to fill out any forms, I have the choice of doing it in Irish. I think that it is reasonable


  • Options
    #253
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Something that I find hard to say and that I only have recently come to learn myself....

    The irish language is not of any use to anyone in the present world we live in. This was something I found hard to take in when it was mentioned before me ,but it's actually very true.

    The irish language is of great pride to irish people ,but it is of no benefit to the world globally. The time seems to have passed where a language stood for anything more than communication.

    In recent times ,I've found the spanish language of major significance. But in general nobody batters an eyelid here in ireland.

    Anyways ,slan.


  • Options
    #254
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Cliste wrote: »
    Why would you start with this:
    As a joke.
    Cliste wrote: »
    When you actually have more to say?

    Irish is useful to me, French and German on the other hand... but we all pick out own paths in life.

    This is not throwing money at it willy nilly - it is the provision of services through Irish. So if I want to fill out any forms, I have the choice of doing it in Irish. I think that it is reasonable

    It is not reasonable if there are (Irish) people processing those forms that can't understand a jot that you write.


  • Options
    #255
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Well yoshytoshy, a lot of things aren't "of any use to anyone in the present world we live in." This is another angle on the thing - ie the why bother in the first place angle. You might guess that I disagree completely - however before this thread goes down that path I advise everyone go search for threads in the past which have gone down a similar train of thought, it usually ends with Caps Lock unleashing the fury, and the mods clean up the pieces
    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    As a joke.

    You wouldn't get far in the humour forum...
    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    It is not reasonable if there are (Irish) people processing those forms that can't understand a jot that you write.

    Given that 99% of forms are filling in name, address and ticking boxes I'm sure even the staunchest unionist could be expected to handle it. Secondly I'm sure we can find enough civil servants with the cúpla focal banging around to handle the situation.

    However It doesn't matters what nationality they are


  • Options
    #256
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Then, why do the majority of people NOT speak Irish? If the feeling is as strong as you say, people would have mastered the langauge decades ago. The listenership ratings of TG4 and RnaG very much in a minority, does this not tell you something?

    They don't speak it, because of a few reasons. I'll enlighten you, given that you are too ignorant to enlighten yourself.

    1) Failed curriculum, without any immersion programme. This leaves a very large amount of people without the basic skills required to operate in the language.

    2) Fear. Some people are afraid of using Irish, even in basic sentences incase they make a mistake.

    3) The majority of the people "can't" speak it - Otherwise, they would. Once again, down to a failed curriculum.

    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    The irish language is not of any use to anyone in the present world we live in. This was something I found hard to take in when it was mentioned before me ,but it's actually very true.

    Of course it is. You have the ability to speak to people in Ireland in 2 languages. It actually allows privacy in public places.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    The irish language is of great pride to irish people ,but it is of no benefit to the world globally.

    Um, I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of languages are of no benefit outside their own countries. Infact, the only languages you'll see distributed worldwide besides English on any broad scale is French and Spanish - All due to their colonial past. No other reason.

    But Gaeilge is useful - Especially if you enjoy the great craic that a weekend in a Gaeltacht can give you.


  • Options
    #257
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    Cliste wrote: »
    You wouldn't get far in the humour forum...
    Thanks for that, Will Self.
    Here's some Irish I saw on a TG4 soap ages ago.
    -"Cá bhfuil Séamus? An bhfuil sé anseo?"
    -"Ah, chuaigh sé go dtí an internet-café"

    Brilliant! I enjoyed it because I wasn't forced to watch or learn it. I had to learn a poem off-heart about a bloody brown backed cow when in school.
    Cliste wrote: »
    Given that 99% of forms are filling in name, address and ticking boxes I'm sure even the staunchest unionist could be expected to handle it. Secondly I'm sure we can find enough civil servants with the cúpla focal banging around to handle the situation.

    However It doesn't matters what nationality they are
    Interesting stat that. 99% eh? Where did you grab that one from? Forgive me if I think you're just generalising a tad.
    I mentioned Irish people, by the way, in case some jackass started banging on about 'foddeners' taking jobs etc.

    By all means, use the language. I don't hold that against anybody. Not for a second. Its good to learn languages. Linguistics is an interesting subject too.
    However, I can think of more pressing matters that require exchequer funding or my bill money to go to than floating the Irish language. If I want to learn it, I'll go to Donegal or somewhere.


  • Options
    #258
    Serenity Now!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Serenity Now!


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Of course it is. You have the ability to speak to people in Ireland in 2 languages. It actually allows privacy in public places
    Because no-one else around you understands a word.


  • Options
    #259
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Brilliant! I enjoyed it because I wasn't forced to watch or learn it. I had to learn a poem off-heart about a bloody brown backed cow when in school.

    I don't think that anyone is stupid enough to stand up and defend the current curriculum. If you're interested in looking at anymore Irish shows they're all available online at TG4.tv
    Serenity Now! wrote: »
    Interesting stat that. 99% eh? Where did you grab that one from? Forgive me if I think you're just generalising a tad.
    I mentioned Irish people, by the way, in case some jackass started banging on about 'foddeners' taking jobs etc.

    I'm surprised that you didn't know that 95.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot :p - I'm also glad (for both of us), that I'm not a jackass.


    And you'll really have to revise the whole 'no one speaks Irish' argument. And I'm not sure if you are getting what I'm trying to say either. Don't get bogged down with every word I type


  • Options
    #260
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Rabble, Rabble Rabble.....!

    Are we done yet.


  • Options
    #261
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    If we had it as Gaeilge it would solve having to listen to newDubliner, Sand etc - however I think we'd all be in agreement, and so there would be nothing to discuss.

    However if you're trying to catch us out - for not sprechen die Irische.

    Nope, Serenity is just demonstrating that you couldnt have this discussion on an Irish forum with Irish people .... because Irish is at best a tiny minority interest, imposed on the population at large by the government. History has moved on. Most people have moved on with it.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #262
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Sand wrote: »
    Nope, Serenity is just demonstrating that you couldnt have this discussion on an Irish forum with Irish people .... because Irish is at best a tiny minority interest, imposed on the population at large by the government. History has moved on. Most people have moved on with it.

    :rolleyes: Are you saying that we can't discuss things on the Irish forum (again look at teach na nGealt, we can discuss things there - and do)

    How is the provision of services through Irish forcing the Irish language on the population at large?


  • Options
    #263
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    How is the provision of services through Irish forcing the Irish language on the population at large?
    By making everyone pay for it?


  • Options
    #264
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    By making everyone pay for it?

    As a democratic nation - if they have an issue with it, they can take it to their local TD and express their concern. But they haven't - because they don't care.


  • Options
    #265
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    By making everyone pay for it?

    While we're here - why are my taxes paying for services through English?


  • Options
    #266
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    While we're here - why are my taxes paying for services through English?
    Because you live in a democracy, where the majority of people want services in English.
    dlofnep wrote:
    As a democratic nation - if they have an issue with it, they can take it to their local TD and express their concern. But they haven't - because they don't care.
    Or are not yet aware of the cost.


  • Options
    #267
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Because you live in a democracy, where the majority of people want services in English.

    That doesn't negate the fact that they majority of the population support the language and have no inherent problem with funding of the language.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Or are not yet aware of the cost.

    Why don't you run for TD and make them aware of it? Surely, such an important issue would guarantee your election?

    Vote NewDubliner #1 - Will get rid of that poxy language once and for all!

    I see you doing big things with that campaign.

    And yes, that is dlofnep's attempt at sarcasm.


  • Options
    #268
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Because you live in a democracy, where the majority of people want services in English.

    I'm not sure if you didn't get my point, or if you were just plain ignoring it. Either way I'll repeat in more explicit terms:

    What we are talking about here is services being provided through Irish, this is to allow people who want to operate through Irish the opportunity to do so. There is a real demand for this, from taxpayers - who, as dlofnep says 'have no inherent problem with funding of the language.'


    I invite you to enlighten us all to the actual cost.


  • Options
    #269
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Cliste wrote: »
    What we are talking about here is services being provided through Irish, this is to allow people who want to operate through Irish the opportunity to do so. There is a real demand for this, from taxpayers - who, as dlofnep says 'have no inherent problem with funding of the language.'
    Let me correct this & make it more accurate as you seem to ignore the core issue of cost and demand:

    "There is a real demand for this, from an unknown, but quite small, number of taxpayers - who, as dlofnep says 'have no inherent problem with funding of the language.'"
    Cliste wrote: »
    I invite you to enlighten us all to the actual cost.
    I invite you to say how much (in Euro) should be spent and how by what metric we will know if it represents value for money in 'preserving' the Irish language.


  • Options
    #270
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Let me correct this & make it more accurate as you seem to ignore the core issue of cost and demand:

    "There is a real demand for this, from an unknown, but quite small, number of taxpayers - who, as dlofnep says 'have no inherent problem with funding of the language.'"

    I'm not ignoring the issue - I've provided a link which says that 93% are in favour of preserving the language. I also did a rough calculation which would imply that the increase in cost is less than 10%

    You're throwing out soundbites, and at this stage even you know it
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I invite you to say how much (in Euro) should be spent and how by what metric we will know if it represents value for money in 'preserving' the Irish language.

    Right we're still going around in circles on the price of it, and I know that I'm not arsed finding it - balls in your court.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #271
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    L
    "There is a real demand for this, from an unknown, but quite small, number of taxpayers - who, as dlofnep says 'have no inherent problem with funding of the language.'"

    Prove it! I ask you to prove that there is a small number of tax payers willing to fund the Irish language. Do you think if they had an issue with it all this time, they would have stayed quiet about it?

    Fact of the matter is, you are clutching straws. The majority of the population are more than happy to support Gaeilge.

    Infact, if you look at boards.ie's very own poll on this a while back - taken by over 550 people, you'll see that only 15% of the people opposed the language, while over 72% supported "Reform the Irish curriculum, boost funding, and encourage Irish. ". (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054890081) and a further 12% supporting to continue it as it is.

    So whatever way you spin it - the majority of the people support the language, support it's funding, and even support more funds for it.

    You've lost this debate.


Advertisement