Manchester United v Tottenham Hotspur (EPL) 5.15pm 25/4/09 Setanta Sp 1

Headshot

LL decisions always balance each other out more or less

just look at the FA cup man utd v everton

utd were robbed of a peno there

we got a peno back tonight

eagle eye

Headshot wrote: »

LL decisions always balance each other out more or less

No they don't. Maybe among the big four they do but not as far as the rest of the league is concerned.
Blackburn have had a number of decisions not given to them against big four teams and we rarely get the benefit of the doubt when we are on defense against those teams either.

Edit just to add. I've seen more dodgy decisions at Old Trafford than any other ground in the Premier League and 99% of them are in United's favour.

LuckyLloyd

PHB wrote: »

What about Everton too? We'd be in the final of the FA Cup and on course ofr a quadruple had Welbeck gotten the penalty he deserves.

Where was the outcry from the whole world then?

and people talk about ref having double standards

Headshot wrote: »

LL decisions always balance each other out more or less

just look at the FA cup man utd v everton

utd were robbed of a peno there

we got a peno back tonight

Gentlemen, they are two different competitions. I would have had no problem with Ferguson throwing a red flag and receiving a rightful penalty upon review last week btw.

Talk about 'it all balances out' is ultimately retarded. Over years, in different competitions, sure. Variance will balance out more or less amongst clubs in similar tiers. But over a single 38 game season? No chance. And is there balance over a five year period in a comparison of Utd / Liverpool and Middlesborough or West Brom? lol, no.

Something should be done - particularly when the ability to do something about it is readily available.

Mr. Presentable

PHB wrote: »

What about Everton too? We'd be in the final of the FA Cup and on course ofr a quadruple had Welbeck gotten the penalty he deserves.

a) You don't know that

b) One swallow does not a summer make

Mr. Presentable

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Something should be done - particularly when the ability to do something about it is readily available.

You're right of course, but sadly the slip-ups will always favour the side with the most grease.

witnessmenow

not saying the peno was an excuse, Spurs fell apart, but as easily as you can say it makes up for the Everton one, Hulk was denied a penalty in OT in the first leg against porto.

Its not united fault the got gifted the penalty, I just wish officials would get it right!

Liam O

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Gentlemen, they are two different competitions. I would have had no problem with Ferguson throwing a red flag and receiving a rightful penalty upon review last week btw.

Talk about 'it all balances out' is ultimately retarded. Over years, in different competitions, sure. Variance will balance out more or less amongst clubs in similar tiers. But over a single 38 game season? No chance. And is there balance over a five year period in a comparison of Utd / Liverpool and Middlesborough or West Brom? lol, no.

Something should be done - particularly when the ability to do something about it is readily available.

How many of these Middlesborough and West Brom games do you watch the full 90 mins of to pass judgement on the standards of the refereeing? I've lost count of the amount of wrongly disallowed offside goals United have scored this season, but because United were in control and winning the games nobody cared. Also because United are at home and have about 60-70% of the possession and 80% of the chances they are more likely to be involved in the disputable decisions at their opponents goal when at home.

Same with Liverpool btw, you'd swear they'd never gotten a penalty for a Gerrard dive or the ref never changed the colour of the card in a certain Merseyside Derby the other year

And I agree that it's not going to change until something gets done about it

ITT-Pat

nipplenuts wrote: »

a) You don't know that

Obviously nobody knows whether or not United would be in the final if Welbeck was awarded the peno. But by that same token, we dont know whether or not United would have beaten Spurs today without Carrick being awarded the penalty.

PHB

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Obviously nobody knows whether or not United would be in the final if Welbeck was awarded the peno. But by that same token, we dont know whether or not United would have beaten Spurs today without Carrick being awarded the penalty.

Indeed.

Thing about United is people remember all the stuff we get that we don't deserve, but they forget the countless fouls I've seen on United players that have without a doubt been fouls and not given to us, because people are so wary about being seen as pro-United.

Take today for example, Palacious on Ronaldo in the first half, two footed lunge, if Ronaldo had not jumped, it would have been a straight red. Yet a year or so ago, Ronaldo got sent off for making a very similar tackle, even though the other player jumped.

Headshot

PHB wrote: »

Indeed.

Thing about United is people remember all the stuff we get that we don't deserve, but they forget the countless fouls I've seen on United players that have without a doubt been fouls and not given to us, because people are so wary about being seen as pro-United.

exactly Pantsil did a fouling job on Ronaldo a few weeks back

red did nothing

Mr. Presentable

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Obviously nobody knows whether or not United would be in the final if Welbeck was awarded the peno. But by that same token, we dont know whether or not United would have beaten Spurs today without Carrick being awarded the penalty.

I concur absolutely.

Sully

Just looking at the replay on RTE2. Fantastic shots by Ronaldo, real beauty and well saved.

LuckyLloyd

Liam O wrote: »

How many of these Middlesborough and West Brom games do you watch the full 90 mins of to pass judgement on the standards of the refereeing? I've lost count of the amount of wrongly disallowed offside goals United have scored this season, but because United were in control and winning the games nobody cared. Also because United are at home and have about 60-70% of the possession and 80% of the chances they are more likely to be involved in the disputable decisions at their opponents goal when at home.

Utd will very rarely have 70% possession at the end of a game, fyi.

Yes, I may not watch as many complete 90 mins of the smaller clubs, but you read through a sports section on a Sunday / Monday on a regular basis and you watch these teams getting done away at the big four time and time again and you conclude that there is a problem.

Yes, part of the inconsistency in decisions is a product of one group of teams having more of the game flow than the other. But the other part of it that is unsettling referees is baying home fans, and the understanding that the spotlight that shines on the bigger teams is brighter. That isn't really defensible or good.

Finally, a decision at 0 - 0 is going to be a whole lot more crucial than a decision at 3 - 0. This should be obvious.

D.S.

Watching the highlights right now. Webb got the penalty decision right for me. Carrick was taken out and keeper didn't get the ball...

Headshot

Rte lads are saying ref was right to give the peno to utd

Sully

Uniteds 3rd goal which was scored by Roony was very good. The fourth could have been saved I would have expected, slow defense. Good to see Berb being useful!

mada999

PHB wrote: »

Indeed.

Thing about United is people remember all the stuff we get that we don't deserve, but they forget the countless fouls I've seen on United players that have without a doubt been fouls and not given to us, because people are so wary about being seen as pro-United.

Take today for example, Palacious on Ronaldo in the first half, two footed lunge, if Ronaldo had not jumped, it would have been a straight red. Yet a year or so ago, Ronaldo got sent off for making a very similar tackle, even though the other player jumped.

to be honest i thought yer man rafael (sp?) should have got booked for persistant fouling all through the game, but the spurs lads make one tackle and they get booked... ref made two howlers today 1 for the pen and 1 when he should have givin a free to Modric in the build up to utd's 2nd goal..

UTD are going to win the league... dipped in so much luck tis unreal.... as for people sayin Berbatov had a good game? i thought he was useless today..his goal was a joke a weak header from 6 yards out and a mix up by the keeper.... lol

Rooney was man of the match for me top quality...ye'd be lost without him...

Penalty killed spurs tbh...even stevie wonder could have seen the keeper got the ball (after the man).. if Mr. webb wasn't 100% then shouldn't have given it....he was miles away from the action...only at Old Trafford though....

LuckyLloyd

Headshot wrote: »

Rte lads are saying ref was right to give the peno to utd

So?

Mr. Presentable

Headshot wrote: »

Rte lads are saying ref was right to give the peno to utd

But every other week they don't have a clue.......................

D.S.

mada999 wrote: »

Penalty killed spurs tbh...even stevie wonder could have seen the keeper got the ball (after the man).. if Mr. webb wasn't 100% then shouldn't have given it....he was miles away from the action...only at Old Trafford though....

Look at the replay mate. Keeper never touched the ball..Carrick knocked the ball first with the intention of going around, keeper had too much momentum to pull away..

Edit: Just watching it again there now. Keeper got the faintest of touches just at the last moment. It's a light touch but he did just get it. However, Carrick was already on his way down at that stage. It's still the right call for me..

LuckyLloyd

D.S. wrote: »

Look at the replay mate. Keeper never touched the ball..Carrick knocked the ball first with the intention of going around, keeper had too much momentum to pull away..

I think you should look at the replay tbh.

ITT-Pat

Berbatov was very good today. Personally, I don't see how anyone who isn't just anti-Berbatov can think otherwise

D.S.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think you should look at the replay tbh.

Got there before you..:pac:

eagle eye

D.S. wrote: »

Look at the replay mate. Keeper never touched the ball..Carrick knocked the ball first with the intention of going around, keeper had too much momentum to pull away..

Edit: Just watching it again there now. Keeper got the faintest of touches just at the last moment. It's a light touch but he did just get it. However, Carrick was already on his way down at that stage. It's still the right call for me..

Holy fcuk, I can't believe what I'm reading. You edit to put that in. He was not on the way down until the ball was gone. The keeper never made contact with Carrick. He was going over the keeper and then the ball went and he dived.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, that's three home games for Utd which have been marred by incompetent refereeing in relation to crucial decisions at key points in the games.

You forgot to mention Placious should have went for his 2 footed tackle on Ronaldo.

So that would be 4 at least?

Liam O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuLtLXl7FI

This wasn't in the Premiership. It's not like the referees are perfect in every other league.

Unearthly

Boggles wrote: »

You forgot to mention Placious should have went for his 2 footed tackle on Ronaldo.

Great point. That was a potential leg breaker. It's almost like people are forgetting about a decision that didn't go man utds way, but that would never happen....would it?

jebuz

MementoMori wrote: »

I really can't see there not being goals in this one, given how open things have been so far.

hah?

D.S.

eagle eye wrote: »

Holy fcuk, I can't believe what I'm reading. You edit to put that in. He was not on the way down until the ball was gone. The keeper never made contact with Carrick. He was going over the keeper and then the ball went and he dived.

Disagree. It was clumsy by Gomes. He wasn't in control. He was in the path of Carrick, Carrick got the touch and Gomes took him out. And Gomes was lucky to get that touch. It's not a dead cert decision either way. But howling at the ref for getting it wrong is extreme in this case. George Hamilton thought it was a peno, Ray Houghton didn't. Two views looking at the same replay.

Blaming the ref for the defeat is a bit much anyway. Spurs capitulated. Too good a team - shouldn't let that happen..

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

You forgot to mention Placious should have went for his 2 footed tackle on Ronaldo.

So that would be 4 at least?

Unearthly wrote: »

Great point. That was a potential leg breaker. It's almost like people are forgetting about a decision that didn't go man utds way, but that would never happen....would it?

Eh, ok. Read my posts, I agree that it is a top four wide problem one, and that all bad decisions need to be eliminated (as much as possible obv) two.

Of course, two wrongs don't make a right. The penalty decision was still wrong, even if it was preceded by a poor decision earlier in the game. All such decisions create doubt over whether the end result was a fair reflection of the respective abilities and performances of the two opposing teams.

Ruskie4Rent

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think you should look at the replay tbh.

Its a shame Webb doesn't have super slow mo multi angled vision like all decent refs should.

Really though, all criticism directed at him is way OTT. Gomes' touch was not as obvious as most people are suggesting. It was very faint, and standing behind the play it would be impossible for Webb to see the ball change direction.

All the ABU's can do is curse their luck at the end of the day, any scapegoating is silly TBH.

eagle eye

D.S. wrote: »

Disagree. It was clumsy by Gomes. He wasn't in control. He was in the path of Carrick, Carrick got the touch and Gomes took him out. And Gomes was lucky to get that touch. It's not a dead cert decision either way. But howling at the ref for getting it wrong is extreme in this case. George Hamilton thought it was a peno, Ray Houghton didn't. Two views looking at the same replay.

Blaming the ref for the defeat is a bit much anyway. Spurs capitulated. Too good a team - shouldn't let that happen..

What do you mean disagree???????????

The replay was right in front of you, I've seen it about twenty times now and he never touched Carrick and he got a touch on the ball. And its also clear that Carrick dived as well.

What do you you disagree with there and why? Its clearcut on the replay.

Edit enough of this. Lloyd, just in case you don't know the draft has started.

Morzadec

Ok firstly I will say that conspiracy theories about refs and United are ridiculous. Webb just got it wrong, made a mistake, maybe influenced by the crowd, but does anyone honestly think that the reason he gave it was 'because it was United'?! United were the beneficaries of a poor decision but this happens all the time in the Premiership.

And also, United may well have got back into it anyway. I feel it was a turning point but we'll never know and I had doubts about Spurs holding out anyway. The penalty didn't help them but still....

Just wanted to get these preliminaries out of the way to say THERE IS NO WAY IT WAS A PENALTY! I am honestly baffled how its even up for debate.

Anyone who maintains it was either:

a) Needs to watch it again. (Watch it Closely) or
b) Get his eyes tested or
c) Remove their fan bias and try and make a rational, objective, logical judgement.

If at the end of all this you still think its a penalty then I don't know what to say. Maybe take up following another sport because its embarrassing to suggest that is a penalty. I would seriously lose a lot of faith in these boards if enough people were either stupid enough or bias enough to claim that was a peno.

And, as a Liverpool fan, I can promise you I would be posting this same post if we were given that penalty and anyone maintained it was a valid decision.

D.S.

eagle eye wrote: »

What do you mean disagree???????????

The replay was right in front of you, I've seen it about twenty times now and he never touched Carrick and he got a touch on the ball. And its also clear that Carrick dived as well.

What do you you disagree with there and why? Its clearcut on the replay.

Edit enough of this. Lloyd, just in case you don't know the draft has started.

I think I made it clear why I disagree. Have posted it several times for you now. Have a reread if you are unsure. It's a contentious decision no doubt, hence why not everyone is agreed on it.

Saying Carrick dived at this point is well out of order. He didn't dive, he was going for the ball and wanted to get around the keeper.

Anyway, as I keep saying, while the goal gave United the momentum, Spurs had a good enough team to shut them out, and they didn't. They defended much to deep and invited United on them.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

two wrongs don't make a right.

They certainly don't Lloyd but for some reason the one not favouring United didn't deserve a mention.

monkey9

Ok, i accept the league is over. It's hard enough trying to overcome Utd with their millions, but jesus, when you're competing with the ref as well, there's just no hope.
Howard Webb is a disgrace and he can f*ck right off. There was no way Utd were getting back into that match until his ridiculous and unnessessary intervention.
And you better believe i'm bitter over it!!! Absolute f*cking joke!!

ITT-Pat

I dont think it was a penalty, but I dont see how its a 'shocking' decision

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

Edit enough of this. Lloyd, just in case you don't know the draft has started.

omg, ty! I had completely forgotten! Yes, to concentrate on some well organized and run sport for the next few hours. See ye later...

Sully

Can nobody see it from the reps perspective? From his view, on that side, he saw a foul. As we established, a bare touch of the ball was given which would have been very hard to see by the ref. He made a call which to him was clear and a lot of people were in doubt - some felt it was, others didnt.

Would the goal have made the difference to the overall result? Im not sure, it may have kicked them into action but how are people so sure united wouldnt have came back anyway?

Regardless, there are many decessions in Soccer that result in penos/cards/free kicks that are not clearcut until after and the replays. The system needs to be improved with video evidence and Soccer should be ready to move on and embrace this new technology to address this problem.

Boggles

monkey9 wrote: »

Ok, i accept the league is over. It's hard enough trying to overcome Utd with their millions, but jesus, when you're competing with the ref as well, there's just no hope.
Howard Webb is a disgrace and he can f*ck right off. There was no way Utd were getting back into that match until his ridiculous and unnessessary intervention.
And you better believe i'm bitter over it!!! Absolute f*cking joke!!

So you think the Referree gave United a penalty on purpose???

Well if that is the case I will not watch football again until these corrupt official are weeded out and exposed for the scum they are.

I will be carefully watching the other FOUR goals United got today to see if I can spot any official interfering, because I can't be sure but I think the linesman crossed the ball in for Berbatovs goal.

I'm off to email the FA to see if these serious alegations you have put to me are actually true, I will CC you monkey 9.

Denis Irwin

monkey9 wrote: »

Ok, i accept the league is over. It's hard enough trying to overcome Utd with their millions, but jesus, when you're competing with the ref as well, there's just no hope.
Howard Webb is a disgrace and he can f*ck right off. There was no way Utd were getting back into that match until his ridiculous and unnessessary intervention.
And you better believe i'm bitter over it!!! Absolute f*cking joke!!

Of course Liverpool have never ever gotten any debateable decisons. :rolleyes:

*cough* Mascherano diving for the free kick that led to their 1st goal today *cough*

Draupnir

Eh, did Liverpool not also get a dodgy looking pen today aswell? Carrick played the ball against the goalie, the keeper didn't intend to play the ball in the way that he did, therefore correct decision according to the rules.

According to the rules a penalty is a special type of free within the box. If a player slides in and doesn't get the ball until their opponent plays it against them, free kick is always given if they take the player out.

Look, United blew spurs away in the second half. The peno was 12 minutes before United player spurs of the park, I don't think it caused the sea change in the game that some of the Pool fans are making out. No other team could have done it in the manner United did and no team in the league could have handled United in the final 30 minutes. Football of Champions today.

Harpy

monkey9 wrote: »

Ok, i accept the league is over. It's hard enough trying to overcome Utd with their millions, but jesus, when you're competing with the ref as well, there's just no hope.
Howard Webb is a disgrace and he can f*ck right off. There was no way Utd were getting back into that match until his ridiculous and unnessessary intervention.
And you better believe i'm bitter over it!!! Absolute f*cking joke!!

ah come on to say united weren't gonna get back into it?after the break united were in total control spurs stepped right off i really think united would of gotten a goal they looked totally on top...the penalty definately changed the game and we'll never know whether united would of gotten to goals but to say there was no chance is nonsense..
i think people are being a bit harsh on the ref also there's only one angle where you can see gomez touchingg the ball.. when everyone was saying it was a peno i was convinced carrick had the last touch i was liek wtf, but seein it from another angle you could see gomez getting the touch..

i can honestly say i think united would of gotten the goal even without the penalty we were a different team after the break, movin rooney onto the left and bringin tevez on really made a difference..
I think spurs really stood off united after the break..
i'd be sickened if it was the other way around no doubt about it, but i think the ref is getting bashed i bit more harshly then he deserves.. the challenge thing that someone suggested earlier would be a good idea i think would get rid of all this ****..

witnessmenow

Draupnir wrote: »

Eh, did Liverpool not also get a dodgy looking pen today aswell? Carrick played the ball against the goalie, the keeper didn't intend to play the ball in the way that he did, therefore correct decision according to the rules.

According to the rules a penalty is a special type of free within the box. If a player slides in and doesn't get the ball until their opponent plays it against them, free kick is always given if they take the player out.

Look, United blew spurs away in the second half. The peno was 12 minutes before United player spurs of the park, I don't think it caused the sea change in the game that some of the Pool fans are making out. No other team could have done it in the manner United did and no team in the league could have handled United in the final 30 minutes. Football of Champions today.

:rolleyes:

"lads some lad in Ireland has cracked it, as soon as somebody tries to tackle you just kick it off them and it will be a free because thats not what they intended to do"

You might need this website mate: The Basic Rules of Soccer

I didnt see the Liverpool game, but I wasn't aware they had a penalty?

Unearthly

monkey9 wrote: »

Ok, i accept the league is over. It's hard enough trying to overcome Utd with their millions, but jesus, when you're competing with the ref as well, there's just no hope.
Howard Webb is a disgrace and he can f*ck right off. There was no way Utd were getting back into that match until his ridiculous and unnessessary intervention.
And you better believe i'm bitter over it!!! Absolute f*cking joke!!

What is your opinion on the Palacios 2 footer and Liverpool getting a freekick that wasn't which led to their opening goal?

I'm not expecting a reply because when you are in a bitter mood, all logic and incidents that don't suit your viewpoint are better off ignored.

Bobalicious93

The penalty decision was one of those that could have gone either way tbh. Liverpool fans will fight till the end that it wasn't, and United fans vice versa.

Liverpool fans in this thread sound to me like they bought Rafa's "fachts" about "Meeser Fergoosun". Seriously, to even suggest we've had more luck than you this season is ridiculous. And some are going back to the old "the league is corrupt" tripe. Grow up.

Delusion of the highest order, though I suppose 19 years without a league title will do that to you.

Anyway, back to ourselves, fantastic performance today. Even in the first half, I thought we played well and were unlucky to go in behind. 2 mistakes which were punished, which is to be expected at this level.

Berbatov was a class act today. Fluck you doubters.

Today reminded me just why I love this club.

Roll on Wednesday.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Fair play to Man U, two nil down and still come out in the 2nd half and do what they did is bloody impressive.

sneakyST

Draupnir wrote: »

Carrick played the ball against the goalie, the keeper didn't intend to play the ball in the way that he did, therefore correct decision according to the rules.

According to the rules a penalty is a special type of free within the box. If a player slides in and doesn't get the ball until their opponent plays it against them, free kick is always given if they take the player out.

This is just utter nonsense. A penalty kick is a direct free kick which is awarded inside the penalty area. There are 10 offences for this. There is nothing special about it.
If they player takes the ball before the man and not in a dangerous manner then it is not a free kick regardless of who played who. Therefore its not a penalty.

However in defence of Webb, if you look at one angle of the replay ,directly behind the incident (on stetanta), this is more or less Webbs angle (albeit on the other side) its very hard to see the ball change direction. What people tend to forget is, watching on tele you have a higher view angle, where the ref is level with play, which would make it harder to see the ball change direction in this case. I would maintain though he should have spotted it and it was a bad mistake, maybe he didnt get a clear view.....but thought he was 100% sure.

Elonex

Was never a peno

Bobalicious93

MOTD coming on now.

Going to re-live the carnage all over again