Manchester United v Tottenham Hotspur (EPL) 5.15pm 25/4/09 Setanta Sp 1

Morzadec

SlickRic wrote: »

right...just in now and iv not read any of this thread since I left it at 5.45pm, and I'm not trawling through pages of what I'm sure is carnage.

Unbelievable comeback, I hate to say. Utd seem to dangle the carrot of hope in front of Liverpool so often, but just snatch it away every time. Their ability to come back like they did today is just deflating when you're trying to chase. But sometimes you have to hold your hands up and say well done. For whatever reason, they just get the job done.

They had a helping hand of course. The penalty was a joke. I watched it with utd fans, they watched the replay, and still believed it was a penalty. I had to leave the room before I said something I regretted. Webb should hang his head, but these things happen. What is unforgiveable, is the capitulation we witnessed by the Tottenham rear guard. It was so bad that the penalty, for me, was rendered meaningless almost. Utd were going to score, they always do, and when they did Spurs folded. This would have probably happened whenever Utd scored. It still doesn't excuse the penalty decision. Awful stuff.

To have a bit of a moan though...why the f**k do teams sit off utd. I'm genuinely tired of teams pressing them, then dropping 20yds back after a while. The first tactic seems to work, why change it?

Palacios could have been off, but he was class in midfield I thought. Even though Utd won 5-2, he was one of the stars. Bossed the game for the majority. That Utd won so convincingly is a testament to Rooney, Ronaldo, Berba, and the Spurs defence, nothing else.

Draining game, and that's surely it for the title race. Us Kopites still have a puncher's chance, but not much else it pains me to say. It's been a great race, and I still expect it to go until at least the 37th game, but the time is coming where we may have to put our hands up for this season.

We're still going to fight all the way though, no doubt about that.

And another very good post here, this time from a Liverpool fan. (They are so rare on this thread I have to pick them out for mention).

Me and my friends also sometimes can get heated about football SlickRic like you and your mates. But no United fan I know would sink to the level of claiming it was a penalty. Because they would know they would have no respect when it came to any footballing discussion in the future.

In my opinion anyone who claims that it was a penalty deserves no respect in their footballing views because they either don't understand the basic rules of the game or are so swayed by their fan allegiances that they can't look at a situation rationally.

Likewise anyone claiming there is a pro-United referee conspiracy. Webb messed up. Maybe influenced by the crowd, maybe just saw it wrong. But he didn't go into that game thinking 'I know, I'll really do over Spurs because I hate Liverpool and love United.'

eagle eye

p_larkin99 wrote: »

do you no think palacios should have been sent off for his 'tackle attempt' on ronaldo? or is this a case of referees favouriting the top 4...oh wait.

referees are human, they dont get every call correct.

was it a penalty, no,

should palacios have gone, yes.

2 things missed by the ref, very important things albeit. one for each team.

and the highlighted bit, he's human not a robot. its almost impossible to remove feelings such as pressure from such situations. do you believe that moyes words before the semi final had an effect on us not getting a peno...or is this a case of referees favouriting the top 4...oh wait

The fact that Palacios was not sent off is a reflection of how this referee normally acts. The yellow card for Gomes(instead of red which should be the case for that penalty) is another reflection of how this referee acts.
The penalty decision raises question marks as it is not normal for him to award penalties or punish players easily.

Morzadec

SuprSi wrote: »

Ok, I'm a Spurs fan and I think I've calmed down enough to post. Firstly, let me congradulate Man U on coming back from 2 goals and scoring 5 in the second half. It truly was the mark of champions and I fully expect them to go on and win the league, which they fully deserve over the course of the season.

Now to todays game. Spurs deserved their lead in the first half. Perhaps not by 2 goals but they took their chances and did what they had to do. Nobody would have expected Utd to play the same way in the second half, and I figured that if Spurs could keep the score the same for the first 20 minutes of the second half that things would get interesting. Unfortunately, 12 minutes in the ref played a part. A good (or better) referring performance is one where the referee goes unnoticed and the game flows with interruptions only where they are warranted. Unfortunately Howard Webb interrupted this flow and gave Utd a decision that was not warranted, was completely incorrect, and regardless of his position, was one that, at home, could do nothing but motivate Utd. Like it or not, this decision was the turning point of the game.

Regardless of whether Utd were robbed the week before, this decision was based (or should only be based) on this game and it was wrong and very harsh on a very well performing Spurs side. A team away from home, performing well but perhaps on a knife-edge because they can't believe the position they're in, can take very little to knock them off their perch. A fortunate goal, a great goal, or a really crappy referring decision - all situations that can cause the away team to fold. The problem is when the away team have honestly beaten the home team 2 - 0 for 57 minutes, to lose a goal so dishonestly is gut-wrenching and, with the exception of Chelsea, Arsenal, or Liverpool, will more or less mean the end of the contest. Who knows whether a normal goal would have come so soon into the half or whether it would have had the same effect? Unfortunately Mr. Webb took this potential scenario out of the equation.

I believe most people on here would be critising Spurs for folding if the first goal had been a normal/proper goal rather than a poxy one, but instead they're blaming the ref because Spurs were up for it and he took that away from them. I can't say I was confident of keeping the scoreline the same starting the second half, after all it's Utd at home, but I hoped we could keep the momentum and I believe we could have been in with a very good chance if the ref hadn't had more to say on the result than he did. Even with the decision we should have been able to keep our cool but the wind was well and truly taken out of our sails. That's a sign of a team that doesn't have the required heart to deal with this sort of injustice.

So in summation, and I'm sorry for the rant, fair play to Utd but curse you Howard Webb. My estimation of Frank Lampard went way up this week after his articulate and politically correct phone in but you sir, despite my previously lofty estimation of your skills, have gone way down in mine after your shambolic decision today.

+1 for pretty much everything you said here. In fact I'm pretty sure I used the exact same words at the start of the second half - Spurs need to keep this 2-0 to the hour mark otherwise the floodgates could open.

Spurs look like they're building something but they are evidently mentally weak on this showing. The penalty was a sucker punch, but instead of reacting to it with fight, belief and desire they capitulated. They didn't react to the injustice positively - it didn't spur them on with anger and determination. Instead it seems it made them believe it wasn't going to be their game, having the opposite effect on United. This mental strength and belief is often what separates the top 4 from the rest of the League. In a way the reaction is understandable - facing the champions away is hard enough without them being gifted goals. But I still feel if they want to achieve their ambitious goals they will need more leadership/mental strength/belief in their ability. Spurs have some serious quality in their team but they need to work on this aspect of their game.

cardshark202

eagle_eye,

Seriously dude you have problems. You always get the wrong end of the stick. Your words are etched with paranoia. You point to how Webb may have been influenced by what Sir Alex Ferguson may have said before the game, but fail to ignore the same controversy surrounding Mike Riley possibly being influenced by Moyes' comments before the FA cup game.
Have to say most of your posts are absolute garbage.

Latchy

The penalty ( that wasn't ) was a sucker punch but united deserved their win if only because of the way they came back in 2nd half to win the game .I am wondering though, if ever there is a dvd compilation of penaltys given to united at old trafford down the years ,it would make for intresting viewing .Purley from an objective point of view of course . For all the talent at their disposable every team including utd , needs a bit O luck to win the premership title .

eagle eye

cardshark202 wrote: »

eagle_eye,

Seriously dude you have problems. You always get the wrong end of the stick. Your words are etched with paranoia. You point to how Webb may have been influenced by what Sir Alex Ferguson may have said before the game, but fail to ignore the same controversy surrounding Mike Riley possibly being influenced by Moyes' comments before the FA cup game.
Have to say most of your posts are absolute garbage.

Thanks for the compliment and thats what it is coming from you.

I didn't say anything regarding Mike Riley but I would agree that its very possible that it was the case.

I am talking about one referee and a decision thats so different to what he normally does that its saying something. And that decision has a major affect on the game.

ntlbell

Davei141 wrote: »

If it stays this way, i don't which is better, staying at the top or NtlBell editing his signature.

There was never any fear of that happening.

That's why we're champions.....that's why we're champions

_blank_

Carrick touched the ball before the keeper.

SuprSi

Des wrote: »

Carrick touched the ball before the keeper.

Are you saying it wasn't a penalty? Of course Carrick touched the ball before the keeper, but the keeper also touched the ball before he physically connected with Carrick = no peno. That much was very clear live, without the need for replays.

RasTa

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, that's three home games for Utd which have been marred by incompetent refereeing in relation to crucial decisions at key points in the games.

Bolton
Blackburn
Spurs

The problem is that it leaves you wondering. Would Utd have pulled it back without the gimme goal? Who knows? There is room for reasonable doubt though. Which is a shame.

The solution to this rubbish is the introduction of a video match official and challenge flags for either team (maybe 2 a game?).

Pigman III wrote: »

And here's my imitation of a Liverpool supporter; "Wah!"

Here is what I imagined.

just reading the thread now. Crazy game, crazy thread !

All I can say is (as much as it pains me) well done united, to come from 2 down and score 5 is remarkable tbh.

Rooney was unreal yesterday, his passion is amazing.

Title race not over yet and united still have problems at the back when teams attack them so as a Pool fan I live in hope :pac:

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

Carrick touched the ball before the keeper.

So, that is 100% irrelavent.

_blank_

whatawaster wrote: »

So, that is 100% irrelavent.

No it isn't.

Here is the sequence of events.

Carrick runs onto the pass
Keeper dives to clear
Carrick knocks ball to the left
Keeper catches Carrick
Keeper tips ball

The keeper tripped Carrick before he got a glove on the ball

ergo

Penalty Kick

SlickRic

Des wrote: »

No it isn't.

Here is the sequence of events.

Carrick runs onto the pass
Keeper dives to clear
Carrick knocks ball to the left
Keeper touches ball as it goes leftwards
Keeper catches Carrick

Carrick fell over the keeper after he got a glove on the ball

ergo

No Penalty Kick

FYP

keane2097

Can't see what all the fuss is over the penalty - United absolutely demolished Spurs in the second half. Five goals like. I personally can't see that they could have held on FTW either way...

SlickRic

keane2097 wrote: »

Can't see what all the fuss is over the penalty - United absolutely demolished Spurs in the second half. Five goals like. I personally can't see that they could have held on FTW either way...

you're right.

but you never know if and when utd would have scored without the penalty give.

i'm 80-90% sure it wouldn't have mattered, as i've mentioned, but goals do change games.

the sense of injustice spurs felt would not have helped their psyche either. no excuse for the collapse, but it still didn't help.

that's what the fuss is about.

_blank_

The funny thing is that all the Liverpool fans making a fuss seem to have conveniently forgotten that their own first goal yesterday came from a fairly dodgy refereeing decision also.

Hull looked good until Liverpool scored, and then their heads went down for a while, enabling Liverpool to score again.

Then their heads came up and they looked threatening again, and when they actually tried to score an equaliser, Liverpool took advantage and put the game beyond them.

It all stemmed from the dodgy free kick though.

Swings and roundabouts.

Only one team seems to have a victim complex though

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

No it isn't.

Here is the sequence of events.

Carrick runs onto the pass
Keeper dives to clear
Carrick knocks ball to the left
Keeper catches Carrick
Keeper tips ball

The keeper tripped Carrick before he got a glove on the ball

ergo

Penalty Kick

LOL, the keeper touched the ball before he touched Carrick, everyone but an obviously select group of Utd fans could see that.

I cannot believe anyone is arguing against this. Even Mr Ferguson thought it wasn't a penalty. That says it all

ntlbell

SlickRic wrote: »

you're right.

but you never know if and when utd would have scored without the penalty give.

i'm 80-90% sure it wouldn't have mattered, as i've mentioned, but goals do change games.

the sense of injustice spurs felt would not have helped their psyche either. no excuse for the collapse, but it still didn't help.

that's what the fuss is about.

but when pretty much the same thing happened in a game just before it was the ref made a mistake get over it

why is it get over it in that match and people can't get over it for another?

my impression yesterday was a peno i haven't seen it since to take another look but as i was told yesterday in another match thread here

ref made a mistake we scored good times.

well lets let the good times roll...

3 Dollar Bill

The most important factor here is that George Hamilton thought it was a penalty. Our George is always right

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

but when pretty much the same thing happened in a game just before it was the ref made a mistake get over it

why is it get over it in that match and people can't get over it for another?

my impression yesterday was a peno i haven't seen it since to take another look but as i was told yesterday in another match thread here

ref made a mistake we scored good times.

well lets let the good times roll...

still think it's a penalty. Because it's not

In particular watch how Gomes touched the ball, THEN touches Carrick. To see this you will need to watch the video forwards

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

still think it's a penalty. Because it's not

In particular watch how Gomes touched the ball, THEN touches Carrick. To see this you will need to watch the video forwards

I think for me watching it over and over it's very tight, but it does look like gomes got the ball first but i can see why to the ref it would look like the action on the ball was from carrick moving it to the left

but as i keep saying

two ref's descion's yesterday probably gave both teams 3 points

as you were..

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

two ref's descion's yesterday probably gave both teams 3 points

as you were..

well, 2 points:

The Liverpool decision gave us a situation were probably 5% of the time a goal might be scored.
The United decision gave you a situation were probably 80% of the time a goal might be scored.

Liverpool didn't have a 2-0 deficit to overcome at the time, so you can't directly compare the scenarios

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

well, 2 points:

The Liverpool decision gave us a situation were probably 5% of the time a goal might be scored.
The United decision gave you a situation were probably 80% of the time a goal might be scored.

Liverpool didn't have a 2-0 deficit to overcome at the time, so you can't directly compare the scenarios

it's irrelevant

both descions led to goals, both decisions probably led to both teams getting the 3 points

it looks like both were wrong, we don't know what would have happened in both games if they were made correctly

maybe liverpool would have still won, maybe folan wouldn't have got sent off as he might not have kicked out as he was obv still frustrated from the descion

maybe united would have won 4-2 anyway
maybe liverpool might have won 2-1 2-0
maybe spurs would have won 2-0
maybe hull would have won 1-0

we just don't know

RasTa

Any highlights?

Dave!

RasTa wrote: »

Any highlights?

Yeah I thought Ronaldo's diving header was one of the highlights

http://www.footyfilms.com/footyvideo.php?vid=95aadbb7e

keane2097

whatawaster wrote: »

The Liverpool decision gave us a situation were probably 5% of the time a goal might be scored.
The United decision gave you a situation were probably 80% of the time a goal might be scored.

You really don't need to use probabilities for this scenario since it's not hypothetical. Both incorrect decisions led to goals, the probability that they would have is only useful when the outcome is unknown.

keane2097

whatawaster wrote: »

still think it's a penalty. Because it's not

In particular watch how Gomes touched the ball, THEN touches Carrick. To see this you will need to watch the video forwards

That's my first time seeing the replay.

I can't understand why people are going so crazy about it. Gomes got a slight touch on the ball before he made contact with Carrick so no peno fair enough, but it was a very tight call and the people who are baying for the ref's blood would seriously want to get back in touch with reality imo.

SlickRic

ntlbell wrote: »

but when pretty much the same thing happened in a game just before it was the ref made a mistake get over it

why is it get over it in that match and people can't get over it for another?

my impression yesterday was a peno i haven't seen it since to take another look but as i was told yesterday in another match thread here

ref made a mistake we scored good times.

well lets let the good times roll...

if you read my posts, i'm very much over it thank you very much.

i also said on a couple of occasions in the Pool match thread that Pool's free kick was a ridiculous decision. it was only a free though...(it doesn't take away from the bad decision).

this is the united match thread, so I'm commenting on this match.

i've also said that i'm 80-90% sure the penalty give would not have mattered.

i can't speak for all liverpool fans, but I assure you this one is over it. at 2-0 yesterday I had to calm Pool fans down because I know what united are like. i expected it.

doesn't take away from the horrendous decision that started it all, one that is worthy of discussion and a bit of ridicule.

Theresalwaysone

keane2097 wrote: »

You really don't need to use probabilities for this scenario since it's not hypothetical. Both incorrect decisions led to goals, the probability that they would have is only useful when the outcome is unknown.

Yeah but in fairness Liverpool scoring was way above EV. Variance no?

SlickRic

keane2097 wrote: »

That's my first time seeing the replay.

I can't understand why people are going so crazy about it. Gomes got a slight touch on the ball before he made contact with Carrick so no peno fair enough, but it was a very tight call and the people who are baying for the ref's blood would seriously want to get back in touch with reality imo.

people's gut reaction is to bay for his blood because it was a vital game. Pool fans were desperate for utd to slip up. we needed the ref to get this decision right, because we know once united get a hold in a game, they're hard to stop.

if it was a decision in a meaningless game, people would of course probably say 'ah well', but this game was not that.

Unearthly

SlickRic wrote: »

if you read my posts, i'm very much over it thank you very much.

i also said on a couple of occasions in the Pool match thread that Pool's free kick was a ridiculous decision. it was only a free though...(it doesn't take away from the bad decision).

this is the united match thread, so I'm commenting on this match.

i've also said that i'm 80-90% sure the penalty give would not have mattered.

i can't speak for all liverpool fans, but I assure you this one is over it. at 2-0 yesterday I had to calm Pool fans down because I know what united are like. i expected it.

doesn't take away from the horrendous decision that started it all, one that is worthy of discussion and a bit of ridicule.

You always come across as a good poster and have your head screwed on, but what is your opinion on Palacios going in with a potential leg breaker 2 footer after 5 mins on Ronaldo and not even get booked?

People talk about the penalty being the game changer, but if a correct red card after 5 minutes was given to Palacios, that would of also been a game changer, a huge one at at that to.

ntlbell

SlickRic wrote: »

people's gut reaction is to bay for his blood because it was a vital game. Pool fans were desperate for utd to slip up. we needed the ref to get this decision right, because we know once united get a hold in a game, they're hard to stop.

if it was a decision in a meaningless game, people would of course probably say 'ah well', but this game was not that.

and if it was a blatant obvious mistake it would be understandable

even after watching it again and again it's tight.

ntlbell

Unearthly wrote: »

You always come across as a good poster and have your head screwed on, but what is your opinion on Palacios going in with a potential leg breaker 2 footer after 5 mins on Ronaldo and not even get booked?

People talk about the penalty being the game changer, but if a correct red card after 5 minutes was given to Palacios, that would of also been a game changer, a huge one at at that to.

That's a very good point i remember a commentator saying "if he made contact there it was a red card" he shouldn't need to make contact it was an awful two footed challenge that if connected could of been a career ending one

SlickRic

Unearthly wrote: »

You always come across as a good poster and have your head screwed on, but what is your opinion on Palacios going in with a potential leg breaker 2 footer after 5 mins on Ronaldo and not even get booked?

People talk about the penalty being the game changer, but if a correct red card after 5 minutes was given to Palacios, that would of also been a game changer, a huge one at at that to.

cheers for the compliment

i think i mentioned earlier that he could easily have gone off. i remember john terry's sending off earlier in the season against everton and i remember thinking it was harsh, but i know by the letter of the law it's about intent.

personally i think a yellow card and a stern warning that one more even minor slip up and you're gone is enough if you don't touch the man. passion can get the best of you. but that's not the letter of the law. so he was lucky to stay on.

so to summise, by the letter of the law things were 'evened out' definitely, but from a personal standpoint i think it would have been a little harsh to send him off.

palacios off would have meant an 8-0 win I'd say. He was immense.

SlickRic

ntlbell wrote: »

and if it was a blatant obvious mistake it would be understandable

even after watching it again and again it's tight.

true.

but refs are paid to get the tight ones right. it's understandable to get it wrong for you or I in the same position, but a professional referee of many years?

No.

ntlbell

SlickRic wrote: »

true.

but refs are paid to get the tight ones right. it's understanable to get it wrong for you or I in the same position, but a professional referee of many years?

No.

it doesn't matter how many years he has, if you or i can barley call it after watching it x amount of times in slow motion what hope has he got.

you can't keep second guessing yourself as a ref, it looked like carrick moved the ball and he did gomes just happened to get a touch on it but it didn't really do a whole lot to the direction imo

SlickRic

ntlbell wrote: »

it doesn't matter how many years he has, if you or i can barley call it after watching it x amount of times in slow motion what hope has he got.

you can't keep second guessing yourself as a ref, it looked like carrick moved the ball and he did gomes just happened to get a touch on it but it didn't really do a whole lot to the direction imo

if that's your honest opinion, fair enough.

i've got higher expectations of referees i suppose, plus the touch wasn't particularly slight. it's not like it simply brushed his fingertips and kept on going straight.

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

it doesn't matter how many years he has, if you or i can barley call it after watching it x amount of times in slow motion what hope has he got.

no.

you can barely call it. Any neutral can call it easily enough. Even in real-time. Look how he flicks the ball away in the opposite direction. It's obvious he got the ball

Liam O

The thing is, looking at it for what is about the 10th time, Carrick could have gotten to the ball or even gotten his left foot around it and Gomes took him down. It's still a tight call, probably wasn't a penalty but United would've scored sooner or later imo, Spurs were defending with their whole team at the edge of the box or further back

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

no.

you can barely call it. Any neutral can call it easily enough. Even in real-time. Look how he flicks the ball away in the opposite direction. It's obvious he got the ball

opposite direction? If you are going to lie in order to make a point then what is the point in debating it? There is no way in hell the ball went in the 'opposite' direction - carrick flicked it to the left, Gomes flicked it a bit more to the left. Opposite...give me a break. Debate what happened or don't bother debating it at all.

Liam O

whatawaster wrote: »

no.

you can barely call it. Any neutral can call it easily enough. Even in real-time. Look how he flicks the ball away in the opposite direction. It's obvious he got the ball

surely not talking about yourself?

Ronnie Whelan and Ray Houghton thought it was a pen

Theresalwaysone

whatawaster wrote: »

no.

you can barely call it. Any neutral can call it easily enough. Even in real-time. Look how he flicks the ball away in the opposite direction. It's obvious he got the ball

Jesus christ get over it.

It was definitely a tough one to call in real time. And even then I dont hear you whinging about palacios not getting sent off or United not getting a penalty last weekend?

Go back to your Liverpool thread and whinge with your sympathisers about how if ye dont win the league it will be because of this penalty and not because Liverpool just werent good enough this year.

Dave!

whatawaster wrote: »

no.

you can barely call it. Any neutral can call it easily enough. Even in real-time. Look how he flicks the ball away in the opposite direction. It's obvious he got the ball

The BBC lad (supposedly a neutral) couldn't decide yesterday either

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8018067.stm

1908: Lots of people on 606 and the text seem to think I am blind for suggesting Howard Webb got the penalty decision right. Hey, just saying what I see, Catchphrase fashion.

1850: I have just seen another replay of the penalty decision. Can I change my mind? I'm not sure Gomes got any of the ball.

1847: GOAL Man Utd 1-2 Tottenham
Cristiano Ronaldo smashes the ball powerfully into the middle of the net. The spot kick is given after Michael Carrick goes down under a challenge from Gomes. Replays seem to suggest Gomes got the ball.



FWIW I don't think it was a peno, but the point is that it wasn't a simple decision. The ref made the decision and got it wrong. Refs are imperfect.

whatawaster

Mitch Connor wrote: »

opposite direction? If you are going to lie in order to make a point then what is the point in debating it? There is no way in hell the ball went in the 'opposite' direction - carrick flicked it to the left, Gomes flicked it a bit more to the left. Opposite...give me a break. Debate what happened or don't bother debating it at all.

ok, but it should leave anyone watching in no doubt that Gomes got the ball

keane2097

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Yeah but in fairness Liverpool scoring was way above EV. Variance no?

True but irrelevant tbh

EDIT: In this situation at least...

Hobart

It was never a peno. Anybody who thinks it was is simply wrong. Similarly the ref was about to blow for a foul just before utd got their 2nd. He had a crap day, utd benefited from it. Ho hum tbh. But anybody who still thinks it was a peno, is off their head.

whatawaster

Hobart wrote: »

It was never a peno. Anybody who thinks it was is simply wrong. Similarly the ref was about to blow for a foul just before utd got their 2nd. He had a crap day, utd benefited from it. Ho hum tbh. But anybody who still thinks it was a peno, is off their head.

you can't say things like that here

killwill

At the end of the day United looked like scoring on numerous occassions in the first half. They were simply BY FAR the better team over 90+ minutes ans without doubt deserved the win. I was so impressed with Ronaldo yesterday and after watching the highlights again, he seems to have a new found hunger about him. The passion he showed after the second goal was fantastic.

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

ok, but it should leave anyone watching in no doubt that Gomes got the ball

the replays clearly (imo) show that Gomes got the ball - i do not think it was a penalty.

My point on the incident is that I can see a situation in which it could be given.

It is a fact Carrick got to the ball first and it is a fact that he moved it to the left with that touch. It is possible Webb did not see the second change of direction for the ball, and felt the only deviation to the ball was a result of Carricks touch, hence he gave the penalty. It is also possible that he did see the second touch from Gomes but felt Gomes only got the ball because he fouled Carrick.

I think it was a poor call, but i don't think it was a dirty or deliberately poor call.