Manchester United v Tottenham Hotspur (EPL) 5.15pm 25/4/09 Setanta Sp 1

SlickRic

killwill wrote: »

They were simply BY FAR the better team over 90+ minutes

false.

spurs' gameplan worked to perfection 1st half. they were marginally the better team. utd played awesome second half, but spurs still held their own apart from the back 5. it's just for the 25mins you dominated you got 5 goals.

you were definitely the better team mind...but FAR better is a bit disrespectful to a by and large good spurs performance for the majority of the game.

besides rooney and maybe ronnie, palacios was the best player on the pitch.

Liam O

you'd honestly swear United won 1-0 yesterday instead of 5-2

ITT-Pat

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I think it was a poor call, but i don't think it was a dirty or deliberately poor call.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a poor call. It was the wrong call, I'm not denying that but had Webb waved play on and not given the penalty, I think there would be a lot of people commending him for making an excellent decision. To say it was a disgraceful decision and should hang his head in shame is just wrong.

Mitch Connor

Of course, this being a red after a few minutes would not have been a 'turning point' or a topic worthy of discussion in any of the papers this morning.

SlickRic

Liam O wrote: »

you'd honestly swear United won 1-0 yesterday instead of 5-2

goals change games.

probably wouldn't have made a difference, but you never know. nothing wrong with discussing that a bit imo.

Denis Irwin

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Of course, this being a red after a few minutes would not have been a 'turning point' or a topic worthy of discussion in any of the papers this morning.

Of course it isn't beacuse a United didn't benefit from it :rolleyes:

whatawaster

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Of course it isn't beacuse a United didn't benefit from it :rolleyes:

yes, the world really is against you

Morzadec

This debate has really really dragged on....

I am just really baffled how the decision is being described as 'tight' or a 'close call'. I'm just so confused as to what people are watching or what their interpretation of the rules are. I honestly can't see anyway in which that can be debated as a correct decision. I said at the time 'great save gomes' and on the replays you can clearly see he gets a strong hand on the ball before he goes near Carrick.

I'm not stubborn in my views usually, I like a good debate where both sides of the argument can be put forward and I'm willing to accept that there are a lot of 'grays' in footballing decisions like this.

But this one? As black and white as you can get. Honestly can't understand how its even being debated. As I say, baffling.

Denis Irwin

whatawaster wrote: »

yes, the world really is against you

Correct

SlickRic

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Of course it isn't beacuse a United didn't benefit from it :rolleyes:

letter of the law, should've been a sending off.

my personal opinion, yellow with a very stern warning of one more remotely bad tackle and your off since he didn't touch him.

see, we can talk about this too if you want.

Unearthly

I wonder how many of these outraged people at the pen decision were the ones laughing, and thanking the posts that had SAF outraged at Man Utd not getting a pen against Everton.

Denis Irwin

SlickRic wrote: »

letter of the law, should've been a sending off.

my personal opinion, yellow with a very stern warning of one more remotely bad tackle and your off since he didn't touch him.

see, we can talk about this too if you want.

Yellow card He went in with both feet and studs up it's a sending off offence pure and simple. Unless of cousre the player on the end of the tackle is a Utd player :rolleyes:

Theresalwaysone

Can any "neutral" really tell me that thats not a red card?

whatawaster

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Can any "neutral" really tell me that thats not a red card?

no

ITT-Pat

Morzadec wrote: »

I am just really baffled how the decision is being described as 'tight' or a 'close call'.

I am sure it wasn't a penalty, but it was a very close call for the ref. Also I wouldn't say that Gomes got a strong hand to it. Its more fair to say he got a vital fingertip(s) to it

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

yes, the world really is against you

well - why is there such condemnation of Webb for giving the penalty, but nothing is being said about what should have been a clear and straight red card for Palacios, a player people have said was great for Spurs yestrday, their best player.

Calls went for and against United yesterday, but it is only the calls that went for us that get any thread or media time. Riley didn't get as much crap last week for not giving the peno for the clear foul on Welbeck.

The tone of this thread, and others, and teh media is that United are always getting these calls when that simply is not the case. For every penalty we do get, contentious or not, there are many that we should get and do not.

Even look at Bents goal yesterday - it was the ball hitting his hand and thus dropping at his feet that presented him with such a a clear chance, had it not hit his arm/hand it would not have fallen so kindly. A free out could easily have been given there but it was not and United went 1 down. Goals change games, as many people have said - if Spurs had not got that would United have been rattled and condeeded a goal to Modric? Would United have gone in 2 down? Who knows, but of course that decision did not go in United's favour so no one cares and no one thinks they were bad calls.

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

no

so why are you not posting your condemnation of that decision?

SlickRic

Unearthly wrote: »

I wonder how many of these outraged people at the pen decision were the ones laughing, and thanking the posts that had SAF outraged at Man Utd not getting a pen against Everton.

probably a fair few.

can you remember Cahill going clean through too in extra time? granted if the penalty was given in normal time it wouldn't have happened, but utd had a bit of luck too that day.

Mitch Connor

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Yellow card He went in with both feet and studs up it's a sending off offence pure and simple. Unless of cousre the player on the end of the tackle is a Utd player :rolleyes:

It is like Ronaldo's sending off at City a few years back. He made no contact with the City player but he lunged in studs showing and got a deserved red.

Unearthly

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Of course, this being a red after a few minutes would not have been a 'turning point' or a topic worthy of discussion in any of the papers this morning.

This ladies and gentlemen debunks any theory Howard Webb is a Man Utd fan etc

He made 2 bad decisions yesterday. 2 wrongs don't make a right, but no team ended up better off.

whatawaster

Mitch Connor wrote: »

so why are you not posting your condemnation of that decision?

because i didn't see the match and only saw that now.
It was a terrible tackle.

Denis Irwin

whatawaster wrote: »

no

Just out of interest who do you support ?

whatawaster

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Just out of interest who do you support ?

Liverpool

SlickRic

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Yellow card He went in with both feet and studs up it's a sending off offence pure and simple. Unless of cousre the player on the end of the tackle is a Utd player :rolleyes:

paranoid much? it has nothing to do with it being a utd player; nothing. i felt the same about terry's red against everton.

my view is that if you don't touch the player it should be a yellow with a very stern warning of one more iffy tackle and your gone. that's my view.

the letter of the law is red card, so he should have gone. i don't see what the problem is to be honest. unless your fishing for a bit of bitterness in my post to feed off which isn't actually there.

whatawaster

SlickRic wrote: »

paranoid much? it has nothing to do with it being a utd player; nothing. i felt the same about terry's red against everton.

my view is that if you don't touch the player it should be a yellow with a very stern warning of one more iffy tackle and your gone. that's my view.

the letter of the law is red card, so he should have gone. i don't see what the problem is to be honest. unless your fishing for a bit of bitterness in my post to feed off which isn't actually there.

ah come on now.

Attempted murder is as bad as murder

Morzadec

Unearthly wrote: »

I wonder how many of these outraged people at the pen decision were the ones laughing, and thanking the posts that had SAF outraged at Man Utd not getting a pen against Everton.

Yup I was one of them! We all have fan allegiances and we're all going to happy when a decision goes our way and annoyed when it doesn't. That's not what's up for debate here. Of course United fans are going to be happy the wrong decision was made it would be absurd for them not to. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is people refusing to hold up their hands and say it was the wrong decision. I have no problem with them arguing about other decisions that could've gone their way (Palacios), or suggesting it didn't make a difference (they scored 4 after which would have been enough). I admitted that the Everton decision was wrong, despite being glad the ref got it wrong. It was a penalty regardless of how happy I was it wasn't given. It would be ridiculous and embarrassing to suggest it wasn't, regardless of fan allegiances.

Just like it is embarrassing to suggest this one was a penalty.

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

paranoid much? it has nothing to do with it being a utd player; nothing. i felt the same about terry's red against everton.

my view is that if you don't touch the player it should be a yellow with a very stern warning of one more iffy tackle and your gone. that's my view.

the letter of the law is red card, so he should have gone. i don't see what the problem is to be honest. unless your fishing for a bit of bitterness in my post to feed off which isn't actually there.

If those types of 'tackles' are going to be eradicated from the game, the attempts at them have to be dealt with the same way the ones that make contact are dealt with imo. Should be straight red, a yellow is no real deterrent and just means that there is a chance the player will injure someone later in the game with another shocking tackle.

Denis Irwin

SlickRic wrote: »

paranoid much? it has nothing to do with it being a utd player; nothing. i felt the same about terry's red against everton.

my view is that if you don't touch the player it should be a yellow with a very stern warning of one more iffy tackle and your gone. that's my view.

the letter of the law is red card, so he should have gone. i don't see what the problem is to be honest. unless your fishing for a bit of bitterness in my post to feed off which isn't actually there.

Oh the irony coming from a Liverpool supporter

ntlbell

Morzadec wrote: »

Yup I was one of them! We all have fan allegiances and we're all going to happy when a decision goes our way and annoyed when it doesn't. That's not what's up for debate here. Of course United fans are going to be happy the wrong decision was made it would be absurd for them not to. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is people refusing to hold up their hands and say it was the wrong decision. I have no problem with them arguing about other decisions that could've gone their way (Palacios), or suggesting it didn't make a difference (they scored 4 after which would have been enough). I admitted that the Everton decision was wrong, despite being glad the ref got it wrong. It was a penalty regardless of how happy I was it wasn't given. It would be ridiculous and embarrassing to suggest it wasn't, regardless of fan allegiances.

Just like it is embarrassing to suggest this one was a penalty.

i haven't noticed any on the thread have said it wasn't.

what they have said is they can see how in real time it was easy to get wrong.

there's a big difference in the two.

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

i haven't noticed any on the thread have said it wasn't.

what they have said is they can see how in real time it was easy to get wrong.

there's a big difference in the two.

well des for one

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

well - why is there such condemnation of Webb for giving the penalty, but nothing is being said about what should have been a clear and straight red card for Palacios, a player people have said was great for Spurs yestrday, their best player.

Calls went for and against United yesterday, but it is only the calls that went for us that get any thread or media time. Riley didn't get as much crap last week for not giving the peno for the clear foul on Welbeck.

The tone of this thread, and others, and teh media is that United are always getting these calls when that simply is not the case. For every penalty we do get, contentious or not, there are many that we should get and do not.

Even look at Bents goal yesterday - it was the ball hitting his hand and thus dropping at his feet that presented him with such a a clear chance, had it not hit his arm/hand it would not have fallen so kindly. A free out could easily have been given there but it was not and United went 1 down. Goals change games, as many people have said - if Spurs had not got that would United have been rattled and condeeded a goal to Modric? Would United have gone in 2 down? Who knows, but of course that decision did not go in United's favour so no one cares and no one thinks they were bad calls.

good post.

i didn't see the tottenham goals so i couldn't comment on Bent's goal. nobody had mentioned it until you. as i said in my first post-match post i was out from 5.45 till very late. missed match of the day too.

if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be frustrated too. we needed you to drop points, and are looking for decisions to go our way. i for one have never said that utd get all the decisions their way. but the fact is, utd won, the palacios and bent decisions didn't matter in the end, so some Pool fans will obviously gripe about a decision that could have gone Spurs' way.

it's human nature to be a bit biased towards your own team. Don't try to pretend you don't do it too on occasion, especially in such a vital game.

Unearthly

Morzadec wrote: »

Yup I was one of them! We all have fan allegiances and we're all going to happy when a decision goes our way and annoyed when it doesn't. That's not what's up for debate here. Of course United fans are going to be happy the wrong decision was made it would be absurd for them not to. I have absolutely no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is people refusing to hold up their hands and say it was the wrong decision. I have no problem with them arguing about other decisions that could've gone their way (Palacios), or suggesting it didn't make a difference (they scored 4 after which would have been enough). I admitted that the Everton decision was wrong, despite being glad the ref got it wrong. It was a penalty regardless of how happy I was it wasn't given. It would be ridiculous and embarrassing to suggest it wasn't, regardless of fan allegiances.

Just like it is embarrassing to suggest this one was a penalty.

Fair enough. Good points made there. But I wasn't really referring to you, more the type who always spot decisions that go for Man Utd, yet when it comes to decisions against Man Utd they go blinder than Arsene Wenger.

Denis Irwin

Unearthly wrote: »

Fair enough. Good points made there. But I wasn't really referring to you, more the type who always spot decisions that go for Man Utd, yet when it comes to decisions against Man Utd they go blinder than Arsene Wenger.

SlickRic

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Oh the irony coming from a Liverpool supporter

wow, that's pretty poor.

instead of dealing with my post, you generalise all Liverpool supporters as paranoid.

well done.

ShooterSF

SlickRic wrote: »

good post.

i didn't see the tottenham goals so i couldn't comment on Bent's goal. nobody had mentioned it until you. as i said in my first post-match post i was out from 5.45 till very late. missed match of the day too.

if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be frustrated too. we needed you to drop points, and are looking for decisions to go our way. i for one have never said that utd get all the decisions their way. but the fact is, utd won, the palacios and bent decisions didn't matter in the end, so some Pool fans will obviously gripe about a decision that could have gone Spurs' way.

it's human nature to be a bit biased towards your own team. Don't try to pretend you don't do it too on occasion, especially in such a vital game.

Exactly. This is supporters being supporters.

Yesterday was the perfect example. I'll admit swearing and cussin at the tv when Liverpool got that soft free at the end of the first half. To me it changed the game and boosted a Liverpool teams confidence to go on and win.
Now change Liverpool for United, free for peno and "at the end of the first half" to "during the second half".

Both arguments are basically the same thing but depending on who you support one outraged you and the other was a poor 50/50 call.

Morzadec

ntlbell wrote: »

i haven't noticed any on the thread have said it wasn't.

what they have said is they can see how in real time it was easy to get wrong.

there's a big difference in the two.

Fair enough. I still feel it was an easy enough decision (I didn't even think of the possibility of a penalty when it happened, I was as shocked as Gomes when it was given), although maybe my view was better than Webb's. And it's not like its the first time we've seen a clear cut decision being called wrong. It happens.

There have been a few debating it was a penalty, or was possibly a penalty however. D.S. (i think his name is, a few pages back), Des, think one or two more.

The majority of the United fans though have had the humility and sense to admit it was wrong however.

eagle eye

I for one never said that Howard Webb is a Man Utd fan by the way.

I think there has to be questions asked here as to why that penalty was awarded. Its clear form Howard Webb's other recent games that he doesn't give penalties easily and that he is more likely to err on the side of the defender in these sort of circumstances.

So why yesterday did he get this wrong and why suddenly did he make a decision in favour of the attacking team.

My belief is that one of two things happened that made Howard Webb make this decision.

Firstly he was affected by the comments of Alex Ferguson after the Everton game.

What I really believe is that he was told by his bosses before this game(because he is very unlikely to make these decisions) that he better make sure he gets it right if United have a penalty decision.

Just think back a bit and we have a controversial decision made to send off John Terry for being last man back. Mark Halsey paid a huge price for sticking to his guns and sending off Terry. Thats the pressure referees are under when reffing games involving big four teams.

So basically you have a referee here who has a choice. He is not sure and his decision is based on protecting his own future rather than refereeing correctly and waving it away as he should have done. If you watched the game yesterday you will remember that the whistle did not go immediately, there was a gap between when the incident occurred and when Howard Webb blew up. He even took a lot of time to decide to give a yellow card.

Dave!

eagle eye wrote: »

I for one never said that Howard Webb is a Man Utd fan by the way.

I think there has to be questions asked here as to why that penalty was awarded. Its clear form Howard Webb's other recent games that he doesn't give penalties easily and that he is more likely to err on the side of the defender in these sort of circumstances.

So why yesterday did he get this wrong and why suddenly did he make a decision in favour of the attacking team.

My belief is that one of two things happened that made Howard Webb make this decision.

Firstly he was affected by the comments of Alex Ferguson after the Everton game.

What I really believe is that he was told by his bosses before this game(because he is very unlikely to make these decisions) that he better make sure he gets it right if United have a penalty decision.

Just think back a bit and we have a controversial decision made to send off John Terry for being last man back. Mark Halsey paid a huge price for sticking to his guns and sending off Terry. Thats the pressure referees are under when reffing games involving big four teams.

So basically you have a referee here who has a choice. He is not sure and his decision is based on protecting his own future rather than refereeing correctly and waving it away as he should have done. If you watched the game yesterday you will remember that the whistle did not go immediately, there was a gap between when the incident occurred and when Howard Webb blew up. He even took a lot of time to decide to give a yellow card.

Yeah I agree

And Ferguson's other comments before the match also obviously had an effect: "And the referees are too harsh on players who go in with 2-footed lunge tackles, especially on Cristiano Ronaldo. They shouldn't be booked at all, nevermind be sent off."

D.S.

Morzadec wrote: »

There have been a few debating it was a penalty, or was possibly a penalty however. D.S. (i think his name is, a few pages back), Des, think one or two more.

The majority of the United fans though have had the humility and sense to admit it was wrong however.

Come on, at this stage I'd have thought you would of least realised that it wasn't clear cut. Using words like 'sense' and 'humilty' while attempting to give you some moral highground just appear sad.

My points below is a summary of what I said. On rte last night, Hamilton thought it was peno, Ray Houghton didn't. Two views on the same replay. Personally, I don't think it was a clear cut penalty at all but honestly, I would of agreed with whatever call Webb would of made at that time. Looking at these situations in real time without video evidence is never easy for a ref. With the benefit of the video replay, I still think Gomes was not in control of the situation and didn't cleanly get to the ball before Carrick went down.

D.S. wrote: »

Disagree. It was clumsy by Gomes. He wasn't in control. He was in the path of Carrick, Carrick got the touch and Gomes took him out. And Gomes was lucky to get that touch. It's not a dead cert decision either way. But howling at the ref for getting it wrong is extreme in this case. George Hamilton thought it was a peno, Ray Houghton didn't. Two views looking at the same replay.

Blaming the ref for the defeat is a bit much anyway. Spurs capitulated. Too good a team - shouldn't let that happen..

Penalty was a massive decision. I am not sure United would of won if they hadn't of scored when they did. The players were conscious they needed to score in the first 15 mins of the second half and doing so gave them a lot of belief imo.

If United do win the league, as a United supporter, I think the penalty decision might end being one of the big turning points of the season for United. Going down by 2 and then scoring 5 goals in the way they did will be both a huge wake up call and a confidence booster ahead of the Arsenal game..

Morzadec

Ok we'll have to agree to disagree but for me it was very clear cut. It was as clear cut as the one you got against Bolton (not trying to stir things here, or contribute to the United-ref conspiracy, it just comes to mind as an example of a penalty decision that was very clear-cut and given incorrectly). As for George Hamilton he said several times that he thought it wasn't a penalty. (His first reaction was 'Great save Gomes! Oh no, wait, he's given a penalty'.) Then on the last replay angle where it is more difficult to notice the obvious change of direction on the ball, he said 'maybe Webb got it right', or something along those lines. It was only on this last view which he said he thought it could've been a penalty. It'd be interesting to ask him what he thinks now, but who knows!

For me though, from a footballing perspective and from what I thought was the general accepted interpretation and understanding of the rules of the game, I just can't understand anyone arguing it was a penalty. So I presumed people were only arguing it based on their allegiances to United which I felt was sad.

If you honestly think it was contentious or was a penalty, looking at it objectively then, as I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally I just can't comprehend such an opinion.

Elonex

How was it clumsy by Gomes!!

I'm a goalkeeper and what your saying DS is pissing me off big time. How was he clumsy? Was he suppose to stand on his line and wait for Carrick to turn and make it a fair one on one? No, he wasn't, he came rushing out off his line and brilliantly stopped Carrick from scoring.

Clumsy my arse.

Sully

Elonex wrote: »

No, he wasn't, he came rushing out off his line and brilliantly stopped Carrick from scoring.

Giving it to Ronaldo in the form of a penalty instead!

It was risky what he did, a bit to risky.

Elonex

Since when does being a keeper not involve taking risks?

He took a risk and got the ball. Fair enough.

eagle eye

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Of course, this being a red after a few minutes would not have been a 'turning point' or a topic worthy of discussion in any of the papers this morning.

What amazes me is that we have a vidpic for that incident but you never put one up about the penalty. I think we'd all appreciate it.

As I said before and its clear that Howard Webb seems pretty lenient compared with other PL referees so it does not surprise me that he did not get red there.

Same ref did not give Ronaldo yellow for this. It was a kick out and the ref as you can see is right behind him and seen it clearly and yes as it was Howard Webb. This is what makes the penalty decision even more contentious.

Sully

Elonex wrote: »

Since when does being a keeper not involve taking risks?

He took a risk and got the ball. Fair enough.

But surely a keeper must know when its too risky? It resulted in a penalty which turned the game on its head. Surely such a tackle was far too risky.

RasTa

whatawaster wrote: »

still think it's a penalty. Because it's not

In particular watch how Gomes touched the ball, THEN touches Carrick. To see this you will need to watch the video forwards

eagle eye wrote: »

What amazes me is that we have a vidpic for that incident but you never put one up about the penalty. I think we'd all appreciate it.

There it is there, pretty hard to tell at super slow mo if it's a penalty or not so I would hate to make a judgement at real time.

Theresalwaysone

eagle eye wrote: »

What amazes me is that we have a vidpic for that incident but you never put one up about the penalty. I think we'd all appreciate it.

As I said before and its clear that Howard Webb seems pretty lenient compared with other PL referees so it does not surprise me that he did not get red there.

Same ref did not give Ronaldo yellow for this. It was a kick out and the ref as you can see is right behind him and seen it clearly and yes as it was Howard Webb. This is what makes the penalty decision even more contentious.

He gave Ronaldo a second yellow for a handball against Chelsea? He sent off Ronaldo for the tackle against City which was very similar to this tackle.

I dont think he is anymore lenient than any other refs.

Wiley 37 games, 144 YC and 4 RC's.
Mike Riley 30/117/6
Styles 32/101/7
Bennett 34/118/1

Webb is 43/133/5

I think its as much as a muchness to be honest.

And the reason there was no vidpic for the penalty is because the majority of people arguing for the observation of the tackle werent saying the penalty was correct, they agreed it was probably wrong but a tough one to call.

Elonex

Sully wrote: »

But surely a keeper must know when its too risky? It resulted in a penalty which turned the game on its head. Surely such a tackle was far too risky.

But it wasn't too risky because he got the ball:D

Do you get my point?:pac:

SuprSi

Sully wrote: »

But surely a keeper must know when its too risky? It resulted in a penalty which turned the game on its head. Surely such a tackle was far too risky.

But as was mentioned already, what was riskier? Letting Carrick collect the ball on the edge of the box, stay on your line and let him have a clear shot on goal or come out, try to narrow the angle, and if he comes close enough, try to get the ball - the correct technique? I played in goal for years and Gomes' technique and timing for the save was about as good as it could have been, considering the circumstances. In fact, not only did he stop Carrick progressing, he pushed the ball far enough away that there was no immediate risk of any other Utd player following up. It was a brilliant save which was very unfairly punished by a very poor refereeing call.

Theresalwaysone

Ah bollox all this about it being risky. He was doing his job and he did it well. He was unlucky, United were lucky to get the peno, Webb was wrong but understandably so.