All this religious bashing...

Húrin

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's an interesting question. Atheists actively looking for a way to bash religion....hmmm.

If I had my way, I would have absolutely no involvement with religion at all; short of holiday visits to see the impressive architecture of St Paul's or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I would certainly have agreed with all your sentiments wholeheartedly until I moved to Ireland.

The fact of the matter is, try as I might, I can't actually get away from it since I moved here. Religion, or my atheism, has been repeatedly thrown in my face for many years now, often in a ridiculing, disdainful manner - ironically with regards to your post, this forum is often no different.

You were surely aware that Ireland was a less secular culture than Britain before you moved here.

red_ice

Dades wrote: »

red_ice, in every other facet of life if something is ridiculous it's open to anyone to comment on it. Why should religion be any different?

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous. I dont think so. I hold something dear to me, and you think its alright for people to make fun of me for that? I dont. I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

The only other medium i can think of to use if music. I dont make fun of people for their taste in music. Emo/goth what ever. I wouldnt be interested in that stuff in any way, however, i wouldnt make fun of people for them enjoying it. If it makes them happy - good stuff, what ever your into.

Dades wrote: »

And let's be honest, there are a lot of things to do with a lot of religions that are utterly ridiculous.

Yep. Still doesn't sway me from it tho.

vinchick

red_ice wrote: »

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous. I dont think so. I hold something dear to me, and you think its alright for people to make fun of me for that? I dont. I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

The only other medium i can think of to use if music. I dont make fun of people for their taste in music. Emo/goth what ever. I wouldnt be interested in that stuff in any way, however, i wouldnt make fun of people for them enjoying it. If it makes them happy - good stuff, what ever your into.



Yep. Still doesn't sway me from it tho.

Just because you hold something dear doesnt mean it should be immune from criticism.

It is the root of alot of pain and suffering all over the world throughout history and today (unlike music).

Lots of people dont see you belief as a good thing and you should just take it.

I read lots of anti women stuff spouted by religion and I read it, take it and it enforces and strenthens my beliefs.

Religion isnt going to stay silent on my behalf so why should you expect the same curtesy?

Dades

Valmont wrote: »

Dades, why did you change your name from "The Atheist"? I know it was ages ago, I just forgot to ask.

Overheal wrote: »

That going around the rest of boards with a name The Atheist might set a prejudice against you?

Overheal isn't completely off there. When I joined there was no A&A forum and the Christianity forum was the only place for debate. I never really spent time in the other forums. As all the other delights of Boards opened up (including here!), I thought I'd go for a change - not come across as such a one-trick-pony, and changed to a nick I've been known as for years, online and in RL.

red_ice wrote: »

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous.

I wasn't specifically talking about your belief, but since you ask - yes - my opinion is that some of your beliefs are ridiculous. I can't help that.

However, oddly enough I was at mass yesterday, and managed to get away without a red-faced confrontation with the celebrants. That is because my feelings about religion, unless asked or provoked, reside in this forum.

red_ice wrote: »

I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!

red_ice wrote: »

If it makes them happy - good stuff, what ever your into.

It would make me happy not to have to baptise my child, but it wouldn't make me happy to not get her into the local primary school.

fitz0

Húrin wrote: »

If atheists don't truly believe in evolution, why do they waste so many words refuting creationism? Under these standards I am certainly a far more steadfast believer in evolution than most atheists on here.

If nobody showed creationism as a fairytale theres the danger that some eejits might actually believe it! With the amount of people in power that actually believe it there's no room for complacency. Even with evidence that the world isn't 6000 years old some tools are still trying to push their "God did it" tripe into schools and homes. If atheists just let them do this unopposed it would be a sad day for the human race.

Mark Hamill

red_ice wrote: »

im not against people questioning religion, thats up to them to do. Im talking about what the topic is about - religious bashing.

But for a lot of theists, start questioning their religion, even in the nicest and most simple way, will be considered bashing because most people dont like their foundations questioned. Very little of what goes on in this forum is actual bashing. While fun is poked in the "Religious Humour" and "Hazards of Beliefs" thread, nearly all of the rest of the thread are about serious issues, taken up by people with serious questions on religion or atheism. The fact that religion leaves so many questions to be asked (the real reason the religious feel bashed) is not our fault, and many atheist here, imo, would feel amiss for not asking the obvious ones.

red_ice wrote: »

I dont. I used to.. but that was for different reasons, money being one. Im not saying that 'religion made me see otherwise', but it helped, maturing did the rest. Dont get me wrong, i dont go to church or any such thing. I do believe in a greater power, and i do believe theres more to life than what we see through our own eyes. Im in science myself, and for some in my frame of mind to come to terms with that is a very hard thing to do.

Then you must be the exception that proves the rule. Almost all theists believe in some reward when they die; heaven, paradise, enlightenment, and almost all believe that regardless of their own particular flaws, they are still entitled to them. If they didn't, then the world would be full of incredibly depressed people, people convinced that when they die, they wouldn't get into heaven/ get enlightenment etc. And when you start talking to these people as an atheist, they may not be hostile to you (generally an extreme reaction), but a lot will pity you (they will wonder how you can go on thinking that after you die you no longer exist etc.) and you only pity what you see as being below you.

red_ice wrote: »

Mark Hamill wrote:

You dont force your beliefs on people and yet you admit if someone says something negative about your religion you "wouldnt stand for it"?

Yea.. thats a pretty straight forward thing to say.. just like you deny my religion, i deny your views on it. Im not going to sit by and listen to you slate it, but im not going to do anything about it.. ill just ignore it.

So you wouldn't stand for it, but you'd sit for it:pac:? Dont you see what an opportunity this forum is for you? You no longer have sit idle by, trying to block out the nay-sayers, you can systematically go through and refute each and every one of their arguments. There will be no shouting over someones opinion here, on no, everyone with an opinion can put it down and it be posted and read. Forums like these should be welcomed by you: if all the religious bashing atheist are so busy coming here to spout all their "hateful nonsense", then they wont have any time to accost you in the real world, every one wins .

red_ice wrote: »

Does the fact that im singling out your reply say something to you?

That you have no answer for anyone else .

red_ice wrote: »

You seem very level headed about this subject - unlike the other people posting here. Hence me turning my views into a 2 way conversation.

Can you point me the posts from the other posters here that offend you so much that you wont reply to them.

red_ice wrote: »

I myself wouldnt try and impress anything on anyone. Yet my beliefs get bashed on a daily basis on forums like this.

And next door in the Christian forum you can see atheism, evolution, homosexuality being "bashed" on a daily basis and yet you don't seem to take an issue with that...
Look this is a forum for atheism discussion, a very well regulated forum with regular, serious discussions (dont believe me, compare the average poster response here with the average After Hours response) and in this forum religion is questioned. A lot of the time, religion in general will be questioned, but due to the number of christians who also post in here, christianity will generally be touched on specifically. This forum is made for the questioning of other religions, if not what else do you expect people to do here?

red_ice wrote: »

Looks like you read my argument wrong. You can question what ever you want. I wont be swayed by it tho. Did you ever see that episode of friends where pheobe and ross are talking about evolution? Just let it go that some people dont need to have an explination - it just is like that for them because thats how it is... The only thing that id like to see stop(which wont happen), is people making fun of someone for something they believe in.

I have complete faith in what i believe, i dont have to prove anything to you, you can either take it or leave it, ill lose no sleep over the matter. What your being so bullheaded about and is really starting to annoy me tbh, is the fact that i never once said you couldnt question my religion. I said that i wouldn't question it.

But thats all thats happening here. People questioning your religion. Lots of people questioning your religion. Lots of people asking lots of questions about your religion. You are so afraid of questioning your own religion that anyone else questioning it offends you, hence you avoid these type of forums, and ignore people in the real world doing it. But it builds up. Its not that any of it is particularly rude or obnoxious (well, no more rude and obnoxious than what comes from the other side), its just that there is so much of it that bothers you. You see if you really didn't care about questioning your religion, if others questioning your religion didn't bother you, then no amount of questioning would feel like bashing to you.

red_ice wrote: »

YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT I dont care.
stop basing your argument on something i didnt say. This topic of conversation is about religious bashing, not questioning someones beliefs.

But to the religious person being questioned, particularly the ones with beliefs strong enough to post on a forum about it, questioning a religion and bashing a religion will be seen to be the same thing.

aidan24326

red_ice wrote: »

Im not going to sit by and listen to you slate it, but im not going to do anything about it.. ill just ignore it.

Contradicting yourself a bit there.

Yet my beliefs get bashed on a daily basis on forums like this.

You are here of your own choosing. If you don't like it...

So straight off the bat your saying my belief is ridiculous. I dont think so. I hold something dear to me, and you think its alright for people to make fun of me for that? I dont. I wouldnt do that to anyone and tbh, i think your a horrible person for that.

I didn't see anyone making fun of you. Yes some people, myself included, consider at least some of what you believe in to be nonsense, and with good reason. But you must accept that your beliefs are open to scrutiny, to debate, and yes even to ridicule in some cases. Anybody who makes outlandish claims they can't back up is always going to be open to ridicule, and that is exactly what religion does, makes grandiose claims about very non-trivial matters and then offers nothing in the way of credible evidence to support any of these claims. Like I said though, if you don't like having your religious beliefs challenged (or bashed, call it what you like) then don't venture into an atheism and agnosticism forum.

Botany Bay

This is pathetic.


Let me get this straight, you enter a forum that is called atheism and agnosticism. You then choose to be offended by what you deem/define as religious bashing. When others engage with you, the response is one of almost petulant childlike intransigence where only one poster is deemed worthy of a response. Your other, later replies consist of you not liking your precious beliefs being questioned/criticised/ridiculed.

This is like a forum version of Liveline or the an equivalent online reflection of the apoplectic and deeply deluded sanctimony of the Late Late audience after listening to Richard Dawkins. In each instance an individual or individuals choose to be offended, indeed they go out of their way to be offended.

So considering the infantile nature of the above poster and his dislike of any negative criticism, I won't temper this one bit, I'll be blunt.

I regard religious belief, your religious belief, indeed the whole theistic/monotheistic/polytheistic headbanging, genuflecting, self-loathing nonsense as the same. A deluded, totally devoid from reality, nonsensical, mentally lazy, emotionally weak, intellectually dishonest, anti-human load of tripe.

Your precious beliefs don't deserve any respect. Religious beliefs have done nothing to earn such an accolade. While their presence in previous millenia and centuries can be forgiven for the collective primitiveness and ignorance. The continued presence of religious belief in 21st century Western Society is nothing short of embarrassing and pathetic. You can't accept criticism or ridicule, red_ice??? Tough!!!

The irrationality and pure lunacy of religious belief demands castigation and ridicule.

Genghiz Cohen

^ Post of the day methinks

MrPudding

Botany Bay wrote: »

This is pathetic.


Let me get this straight, you enter a forum that is called atheism and agnosticism. You then choose to be offended by what you deem/define as religious bashing. When others engage with you, the response is one of almost petulant childlike intransigence where only one poster is deemed worthy of a response. Your other, later replies consist of you not liking your precious beliefs being questioned/criticised/ridiculed.

This is like a forum version of Liveline or the an equivalent online reflection of the apoplectic and deeply deluded sanctimony of the Late Late audience after listening to Richard Dawkins. In each instance an individual or individuals choose to be offended, indeed they go out of their way to be offended.

So considering the infantile nature of the above poster and his dislike of any negative criticism, I won't temper this one bit, I'll be blunt.

I regard religious belief, your religious belief, indeed the whole theistic/monotheistic/polytheistic headbanging, genuflecting, self-loathing nonsense as the same. A deluded, totally devoid from reality, nonsensical, mentally lazy, emotionally weak, intellectually dishonest, anti-human load of tripe.

Your precious beliefs don't deserve any respect. Religious beliefs have done nothing to earn such an accolade. While their presence in previous millenia and centuries can be forgiven for the collective primitiveness and ignorance. The continued presence of religious belief in 21st century Western Society is nothing short of embarrassing and pathetic. You can't accept criticism or ridicule, red_ice??? Tough!!!

The irrationality and pure lunacy of religious belief demands castigation and ridicule.

Pat Condell FTW...

http://blip.tv/file/311459

MrP

pH

I do kind of get it, the religious sometimes genuinely don't see what the problem is, and complain about an "atheist" over reaction.

And just when I'm thinking they may well have a point ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7h08RDYA5E

This isn't a random nutjob on youtube, this is an elected US official, last month at a congressional sub-committee hearing on the environment.

Oh and keep an eye on the woman behind representative Shimkus - priceless

sink

pH wrote: »

I do kind of get it, the religious sometimes genuinely don't see what the problem is, and complain about an "atheist" over reaction.

And just when I'm thinking they may well have a point ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7h08RDYA5E

This isn't a random nutjob on youtube, this is an elected US official, last month at a congressional sub-committee hearing on the environment.

Oh and keep an eye on the woman behind representative Shimkus - priceless

It's almost too scary to even laugh at that. Shimkus, probably best case for anti-theism in the world.

thebouldwhacker

wow:eek:... what do you say to that??

That is hardcore stuff!

Anyone else see the lady (;)) in the back? she can only fight to stop laughing!

Still, that is not good! would he have the same argument for using a nuke? 'hey it dont matter, god said its cool'

sink

It gets worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdHjhJTf6RE

He references CO2 levels in the Cambrian period, at that time there were no land plants just microbial life forms such as fungus.

fitz0

pH wrote: »

I do kind of get it, the religious sometimes genuinely don't see what the problem is, and complain about an "atheist" over reaction.

And just when I'm thinking they may well have a point ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7h08RDYA5E

This isn't a random nutjob on youtube, this is an elected US official, last month at a congressional sub-committee hearing on the environment.

Oh and keep an eye on the woman behind representative Shimkus - priceless

"There is a theological debate that this is a carbon starved planet."

Seriously wtf?

He quotes Genesis and then talks about dinosaurs? Surely if he uses biblical anecdotes as evidence he believes them, so how then does he reconcile belief in Genesis as being the "infallible, perfect word of god" with the existance of dinosaurs about 64,994,000 years before the earth was magicked into existance?

Why do people elect these idiots?

Zamboni

I'd have no beef with the religious if I truly lived in a secular country.

Goduznt Xzst

fitz0 wrote: »

Why do people elect these idiots?

because the idiotic people have the majority, so of course they'll elect one of their own.

Seriously, Carbon Starved? WTF? If it wasn't for the evolution of land plants that absorb CO2 and poop oxygen the world we have today wouldn't exist, it definitely wouldn't accommodate Humans or any other large land mammals. As far as I'm aware, around the end of the Cambrian, every animal breathed oxygen, but there where very few processes that actually created it, like photodissociation of water (only producing oxygen if the hydrogen released escaped the atmosphere). I don't doubt you could starve the earth of CO2, but comparing the Earth we have now to the Cambrian period is utterly farcical.

Ickle Magoo

Húrin wrote: »

You were surely aware that Ireland was a less secular culture than Britain before you moved here.

I was aware it was less secular, yes. Quite how much less a rather unpleasant surprise - even for my Irish spouse who moved back here.

Húrin

fitz0 wrote: »

If nobody showed creationism as a fairytale theres the danger that some eejits might actually believe it! With the amount of people in power that actually believe it there's no room for complacency. Even with evidence that the world isn't 6000 years old some tools are still trying to push their "God did it" tripe into schools and homes. If atheists just let them do this unopposed it would be a sad day for the human race.

Christians who don't believe evolution are a minority, as are politicians. We have scientists to keep us up to date on biological history. "Atheists" don't actually need to oppose creationism. The atheist polemicists make anti-creationism into a doctrine to affirm their own beliefs, according to Overblood's logic:

the criticism of religion would not be offensive to the Christians if they truly believed in god and the church and the bible etc.

Would you accept a Christian saying that they cannot just ignore criticism on the grounds that it blinds people to the truth?

Botany Bay wrote: »

Your precious beliefs don't deserve any respect. Religious beliefs have done nothing to earn such an accolade. While their presence in previous millenia and centuries can be forgiven for the collective primitiveness and ignorance. The continued presence of religious belief in 21st century Western Society is nothing short of embarrassing and pathetic. You can't accept criticism or ridicule, red_ice??? Tough!!!

The irrationality and pure lunacy of religious belief demands castigation and ridicule.

You were going well until this part, when you just degenerate into a fanatical rant. What's so special about 21st century Western Society? To assert that there is sounds rather imperialist.

sink wrote: »

It's almost too scary to even laugh at that. Shimkus, probably best case for anti-theism in the world.

His problems come not from his religion, but from his lazy misunderstanding of what climate scientists are saying. They are not saying that the world will end; he assumes they are. Plenty of deniers who are not religious think that scientists are saying this, and plenty of religious people accept the reality of climate change. It's more a matter of being unable to convince a man of something if his income depends on not understanding it.

fitz0 wrote: »

He quotes Genesis and then talks about dinosaurs? Surely if he uses biblical anecdotes as evidence he believes them, so how then does he reconcile belief in Genesis as being the "infallible, perfect word of god" with the existance of dinosaurs about 64,994,000 years before the earth was magicked into existance?

Why do people elect these idiots?

Genesis does not say that the world was created 6,000 years ago. That belief only came into existence about 400 years ago, thanks to one of the heads at Trinity!

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I was aware it was less secular, yes. Quite how much less a rather unpleasant surprise - even for my Irish spouse who moved back here.

Do you live in a rural area? Dublin is more secular. Either way, when in Rome...

sink

Húrin wrote: »

His problems come not from his religion, but from his lazy misunderstanding of what climate scientists are saying. They are not saying that the world will end; he assumes they are. Plenty of deniers who are not religious think that scientists are saying this, and plenty of religious people accept the reality of climate change. It's more a matter of being unable to convince a man of something if his income depends on not understanding it.

That is a fair point, but what I really find scary is that he decides to turn to the authority of the bible to refute scientists. I never expected to see that in a developed western democracy. Tbh I don't think anti-theism and attacking religion is going to be anyway effective at combating fundamentalism. Moderate atheists and theists need to team up against this kind of blind unthinking fundamentalism.

Fanny Cradock

sink wrote: »

That is a fair point, but what I really find scary is that he decides to turn to the authority of the bible to refute scientists. I never expected to see that in a developed western democracy. Tbh I don't think anti-theism and attacking religion is going to be anyway effective at combating fundamentalism. Moderate atheists and theists need to team up against this kind of blind unthinking fundamentalism.

Well, that is fair enough, but it becomes very difficult when the polarised opinions at the far right and far left of belief and non-belief, in a brief moment of unity, inform us that religion and science are at each others throats .

sink

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, that is fair enough, but it becomes very difficult when the polarised opinions at the far right and far left of belief and non-belief, in a brief moment of unity, inform us that religion and science are at each others throats .

I would say the majority of atheist think that science contradicts religion, it is one of the main reasons for believing what we do, it doesn't mean we're on the extreme side of atheism. One of the Christian beliefs held even by moderates is that all who don't believe in Jesus are destined to suffer greatly, although I find this somewhat offensive I have long ago built a bridge and gotten over it. You should do the same in regards to atheists views on science and religion. Just because we disagree on a few details doesn't mean we can't agree on anything else and doesn't mean we can't work together on shared goals.

JC 2K3

Yes, there is too much Christian bashing on here. I often wonder why there's so much focus on proving the Bible to be immoral or that specific aspects of Christianity are absurd, when really it all should be nullified by the fact that we don't believe in anything supernatural to begin with...

You get the occasional unique, interesting thread on here, but they're few and far between these days.

dvpower

lightening wrote: »

Do we have to be so anti-religious? Does anyone feel we can live and let live.

Absolutely. First stop - separation of church and state.

Helix

Húrin wrote: »

Would you accept a Christian saying that they cannot just ignore criticism on the grounds that it blinds people to the truth?

would you accept an atheist saying that they cannot just ignore religion on the grounds that it blinds people to the truth?

Ickle Magoo

Húrin wrote: »

Do you live in a rural area? Dublin is more secular. Either way, when in Rome...

I may have less right to demand change in Ireland as I'm not Irish but my husband who is Irish born and raised (in that hub of secularism, Dublin, lol), his family who also don't like the status quo even as traditional Irish Catholics and 99.9% of the atheists on this forum shouldn't have to just lump it because it suits some & historically has always been that way.

Thank goodness society doesn't work that way or we'd still be living with all manner of other archaic impingements, too.