Long runs over rolling terrain?

Running Bing

Just wondering is there much benefit to do longer runs over hilly terrain?


Im training for shorter distances (<5k) and I do an 8 or 9 mile long run on the weekend. Im always contemplating running this over hills but I wonder would there be much benefit or could it potentially be detrimental to more important fast sessions during the week?

little mazungo

Babybing wrote: »

Just wondering is there much benefit to do longer runs over hilly terrain?


Im training for shorter distances (<5k) and I do an 8 or 9 mile long run on the weekend. Im always contemplating running this over hills but I wonder would there be much benefit or could it potentially be detrimental to more important fast sessions during the week?

not at all, it will strenghten up your legs, I try to incorporate hills on my no session runs, you will suffer a little bit more at first but over time (a few weeks) you will notice you will find them easier, thus making you a stronger runner,

also every run or workout is important, I train twice a day everyday apart from sundays, and there is no singular run or session that is more important than the other in my training program, a well designed program is like a jigsaw puzzle,

Enduro

Good post, little Mazungo. Do you mind me asking if you're a full time athlete, or a very dedicated amatuer? Twice a day every day is a big commitment!

little mazungo

Enduro wrote: »

Good post, little Mazungo. Do you mind me asking if you're a full time athlete, or a very dedicated amatuer? Twice a day every day is a big commitment!

haha I dont mind, Emmm with small grant you could say full time athlete .....but I would class myself as amatuer as I dont have a, Cragg, Gillick, O Rourke, Hession etc kit and money deal, nor do I deserve one, so I get bye with part time work, and helpful family:)

also not every day is intense balls to the wall workouts, easy runs are just that...... easy, they make or break your sessions

tergat

Babybing,

Most certainly include rolling hills or longer drags on your long runs. I believe most runners are stuck on plateaus because they lack leg strength and power. They work and work on speed workouts and tempos (dont too fast most of the time) and race-pace or faster than race-pace, but they don't move off a plateau; until they do hill reps, which improve power output.

Specific leg strength is vital to running success. The stronger your legs are the more training you can do without breaking down. The more training you can do without breaking down the better your race performances will be, on average.

Tergat

TFBubendorfer

Tergat, may I ask what kind of hill work you are talking about?

Short hill reps (say, 45-60 seconds)
Long hill reps?
Rolling terrain over your runs?
Running up a mountain?

ricflair

Little Manzungo what distance event do you do and what mileage would you recommend during the base period September March-April for a miler. Thanks

mrak

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Tergat, may I ask what kind of hill work you are talking about?

Short hill reps (say, 45-60 seconds)
Long hill reps?
Rolling terrain over your runs?
Running up a mountain?

Tergat does all his training in the ngong hills so all his runs are hilly. His main hill session is on mondays and follows a hard 5 mile run:

Cross Country Training of Kenyan Paul Tergat:
..

Monday
6:00 a.m 12 miles at 5:20 pace
10:00 a.m 5 miles at 4:50 pace, then 15 x 200m hills

From http://members.iinet.net.au/~peterg1/run/aths.html

eh okay that was lame sorry

tergat

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Tergat, may I ask what kind of hill work you are talking about?

Short hill reps (say, 45-60 seconds)
Long hill reps?
Rolling terrain over your runs?
Running up a mountain?[/QUOTe



TFBubendorfer,

Start with shorter hills 100m or so long. Workout looks like this:
2 miles warm up, 30 minutes of Tempo running + 100m hill reps at a strong effort (about 1500m race effort). Start with 4 hills and add 2 per week. Run 2 miles warm down, including 4, building to 8 x 50m quick strides (about 800m speed with 50m jog between each).

One of the reasons it is recommended that you run only 100m hills is to encourage more vigorous leg action. Pushing harder on the ground to get the springing leg action requires a lot of effort. Thus, if you do hills that are too long you'll end up reducing your stride length just so you can reach the top of the hill. I'd rather you run shorter hills (typicaly 15-25 seconds) and really push hard on the ground. I am not worried about how fast you go up the hill. It's more important to use longer "springing" strides to develop leg strength, which translates to faster running on all surfaces.

Once leg strength raises from short hill running, all running becomes easier; on the hills and on the flats. Later, longer hill reps can be used. By the way, I don't think running long hills works well until your legs are strong.

There is no reason to isolate hill work. You can integrate hill reps during the middle of your racing season if you need more leg strength. The only thing I recommend is not doing hills in the last 4-6 days prior to a big race. The last hill workout should be about 10-12 days before an important race. The reason; it takes several days to recover. I figure the effects of strength training or hill work, which is specific strength training, takes about 10 days to acquire.

Also doing your weekly long run over rolling hills is a very good idea.

Tergat

thirtyfoot

tergat wrote: »

Pushing harder on the ground to get the springing leg action requires a lot of effort. Thus, if you do hills that are too long you'll end up reducing your stride length just so you can reach the top of the hill. I'd rather you run shorter hills (typicaly 15-25 seconds) and really push hard on the ground. I am not worried about how fast you go up the hill. It's more important to use longer "springing" strides to develop leg strength, which translates to faster running on all surfaces.

Interesting you say 15-20 secs for hills, I like that.

When you say "springing" do you mean bounding? I'd always be wary of people using longer strides as it reduces the effeciency that they run at and will reduce their ability to hit the ground harder. Maybe I am a bit confused with the terminology you use but should the focus not be to maintain proper form throughout the hill run as opposed to consciously getting the athlete lengthening their stride. Running up a hill will result in an 'improper' running technique anyway so why complicate further by potentially causing the athlete to overstride and get all the problems that comes with that. I know what you mean by shortening the stride when tired, the torso dropping etc etc but encouraging to maintain proper form may get over that problem or slowing down to ensure you can complete with good form.

In my opinion if you want to develop leg strength the best way to do this would be weights in a gym with the strength gained there channelled to generate power by doing plyos/bounding or hills.

By the way do you advocate the use of weights for middle/long distance athletes?

tergat

Tingle wrote: »

Interesting you say 15-20 secs for hills, I like that.

When you say "springing" do you mean bounding? I'd always be wary of people using longer strides as it reduces the effeciency that they run at and will reduce their ability to hit the ground harder. Maybe I am a bit confused with the terminology you use but should the focus not be to maintain proper form throughout the hill run as opposed to consciously getting the athlete lengthening their stride. Running up a hill will result in an 'improper' running technique anyway so why complicate further by potentially causing the athlete to overstride and get all the problems that comes with that. I know what you mean by shortening the stride when tired, the torso dropping etc etc but encouraging to maintain proper form may get over that problem or slowing down to ensure you can complete with good form.

In my opinion if you want to develop leg strength the best way to do this would be weights in a gym with the strength gained there channelled to generate power by doing plyos/bounding or hills.

By the way do you advocate the use of weights for middle/long distance athletes?

Tingle,

Forget weight training and plyometrics for distance runners (especially younger athletes and those prone to injuries), circuits & core work will suffice. I'd rather you run hill reps, after tempo runs, to develop specific running strength. My experience reveals hill reps are the very best (first) choice to improve specific leg strength for running and overall capacity to sprint.

I agree you need to keep an eye on good form. Form of hill running: run with high knee lift, springy strides, and good arm action (pump your arms). Don't drop your head (in other words, look up!). Make your chin parallel to the surface which you are running over.

Note the descriptions above are an interpreation of Arthur Lydiard's method of hill training. He prescribed bounding, too, which involves more vigorous upper leg pushing, as the second part of the Lydiard hill training method. The difference is you simply ask a runner to use longer, more springy, strides, rather than short but choppy strides.

Typically most people do a base training phase with emphasis on mileage and long runs with little emphasis on faster or harder work. So, after a few weeks of base training aerobic endurance is high but leg strength is low. That's why people have (a la Lydiard) normally done hill work - to regain leg strength. I don't train runners the same during the off-season, so I know their legs aren't as weak; compared to doing just distance work. Therefore, it only takes a handful of hill workouts to get leg strength optimized.

Tergat

thirtyfoot

tergat wrote: »

Tingle,

Forget weight training and plyometrics for distance runners (especially younger athletes and those prone to injuries), circuits & core work will suffice. I'd rather you run hill reps, after tempo runs, to develop specific running strength. My experience reveals hill reps are the very best (first) choice to improve specific leg strength for running and overall capacity to sprint.

I could be wrong but I think you are implying that weights may cause injuries. I used to think that until I understood weights and now I believe (anecdotally and scientifically) that weights will prevent injury. Those prone to injury are the ones who should do weights. If you aren't implying that, then fair enough. Interestingly, the other Tergat said that working out in a gym is crucial when speaking in Santry recently.

Generally there is an indifference by distance coaches to embrace weights or gym but as I am sure you know there are many ways to skin a cat. Even in sprinter circles there are debates about the level of weights you should do with some doing many and some doing few with in many cases those doing few being very succesfull (Wariner, Johnson, Richards). I can't speak from experience regarding weights and distance running but as a form of pre-hab for athletes there is none better and any running coach will be remiss to not at least explore and educate themselves about the benefits of weights. Have you ever tried weights with athletes and if so what experiences did you have which meant you now rule them out? Is your theory soley based on Lydiard? Coe lifted and did lots of plyos. Just asking these as I wonder sometimes why many distance coaches don't embrace weights and their benefits regarding injury prevention, flexibility and obviously strength/power. Weights do not have to be grunting out heavy squats!!

On the lengthening stride thing I think I know what you mean now and it isn't stride lengthening but just running with good form so I think we are talking about the same thing.

tergat

Tingle wrote: »

I could be wrong but I think you are implying that weights may cause injuries. I used to think that until I understood weights and now I believe (anecdotally and scientifically) that weights will prevent injury. Those prone to injury are the ones who should do weights. If you aren't implying that, then fair enough. Interestingly, the other Tergat said that working out in a gym is crucial when speaking in Santry recently.

Generally there is an indifference by distance coaches to embrace weights or gym but as I am sure you know there are many ways to skin a cat. Even in sprinter circles there are debates about the level of weights you should do with some doing many and some doing few with in many cases those doing few being very succesfull (Wariner, Johnson, Richards). I can't speak from experience regarding weights and distance running but as a form of pre-hab for athletes there is none better and any running coach will be remiss to not at least explore and educate themselves about the benefits of weights. Have you ever tried weights with athletes and if so what experiences did you have which meant you now rule them out? Is your theory soley based on Lydiard? Coe lifted and did lots of plyos. Just asking these as I wonder sometimes why many distance coaches don't embrace weights and their benefits regarding injury prevention, flexibility and obviously strength/power. Weights do not have to be grunting out heavy squats!!

On the lengthening stride thing I think I know what you mean now and it isn't stride lengthening but just running with good form so I think we are talking about the same thing.

Tingle,

I think you may have misunderstood my ramblings. I have no problem with athletes using weights and I fully agree they can help prevent injuries etc. They have their place in a training plan.

I do however have concerns with endurance athletes doing plyometrics (especially younger athletes and those prone to injuries). I dont believe Irish youngsters and even senior athletes are physically ready for bounding, depth jumps etc. I have witnessed the physical development of young athletes in countries such as Poland and Spain (kids who can do single leg squats balancing on a med ball etc) and we are quite a bit behind. I prefer them to use hill reps to develop leg strength thats all, just my opinion.

Re my theory I have read into detail the different types of training used my many coaches/athletes around the world aswell as speaking to many coaches at meets abroad and in America. I have taken bits of knowledge from all sources. I believe each had a little piece to add to the puzzle that is endurance training!!!

Tergat

thirtyfoot

tergat wrote: »

Tingle,

I think you may have misunderstood my ramblings. I have no problem with athletes using weights and I fully agree they can help prevent injuries etc. They have their place in a training plan.

I do however have concerns with endurance athletes doing plyometrics (especially younger athletes and those prone to injuries). I dont believe Irish youngsters and even senior athletes are physically ready for bounding, depth jumps etc. I have witnessed the physical development of young athletes in countries such as Poland and Spain (kids who can do single leg squats balancing on a med ball etc) and we are quite a bit behind. I prefer them to use hill reps to develop leg strength thats all, just my opinion.

Re my theory I have read into detail the different types of training used my many coaches/athletes around the world aswell as speaking to many coaches at meets abroad and in America. I have taken bits of knowledge from all sources. I believe each had a little piece to add to the puzzle that is endurance training!!!

Tergat

Fair enough, I'm not trying to disprove you or anything as I like what you say and how you say it. Its simple, to the point and makes sense to me even though I know only a little of endurance stuff. I suppose how am looking for your opinions on strength training (other than hills!) for endurance athletes.

I agree what you are saying about plyos and there was a post on the forum about it last week and I gave my opinions about it and they'd be in line with yourself in that you need to be strong to do plyos (the old 1.5 times body weight squat etc) but I think generally that distance runners in Ireland are not strong enough which I think you are saying too. This is mainly down to fear or ignorance of the benefits of proper strength training of many coaches which I'm sure you'll agree with. But then again this is all theory and I've no experience of coaching at endurance but to me its logical that you should be strong.

geld

Tingle, Tergat,

One of the more interesting debates on this forum for some time. I have found both of your contributions on the subject useful and informative.

Tks


Geld

lecheile

tergat wrote: »

(kids who can do single leg squats balancing on a med ball etc)

I find it hard to get kids just to stand still - maybe that's where I have been going wrong.

Great discussion guys!