Shame on Tesco - Removing Irish Brands from its Stores

K-9

And the IMF says we are are the dearest Eurozone country.

Who has the vested interest here?

cfcj

RiverWilde wrote: »

There is only one way to make Tesco and any other shop for that matter wake up and smell the coffee - don't shop there!

Riv

Sadly easier said than done as information on Tesco doesn't filter out into the mainstream media. Tesco claims to be creating jobs which excite councils and politicians. Truth is that Tesco have an ever increasing army of staff who are outsourced staff, Tradewins is one of the companies who have been hired by Tesco to stock and re-merchandise. This limits liability and they can keep people on temporary contracts similar to what they were doing before with the exploitation of Polish workers. The rapid growth in Tesco over the past few years is alarming and looks set to continue. In the UK they have been exposed by Channel 4 for monopolising small towns and keeping competition out. Town councils there have allowed it and they of course will do the same here. If you live in one of these towns its not a case of don't shop there because we are talking about food, they need to be able to buy food.

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

And the IMF says we are are the dearest Eurozone country.

Who has the vested interest here?

The IMF is one of many economic institutions and any information they give is speculative and subjective to any information they have at any one time. I personally wouldn't take their word as gospel, the have been heavily critiqued for their advice and assessment in the past e.g. with US policy, Brazil & Argentina. The truth about Ireland is that the standard of living is higher here. Taxes are lower than a lot of our European counterparts.

There is a lot you can take into account to make the argument that Ireland is expensive, it can be expensive if you have expensive taste for example. It is relatively hard to compare Ireland on equal standing with other countries as we are a new economy emerging from a very rapid boom period that has helped us modernise our infrastructure but did not make the country wealthy in the league of France, Germany and the UK. Lets be realistic about that.

The boom in pricing also coincided with the introduction of the Euro, I recall a lot of Irish companies signed up for fair pricing pledge and on the flip side a lot of companies capitalised on the confusion of the new pricing. I remember there being lots of public unrest about it, but it was allowed to continue.

K-9

It's accepted we are one of, if not the highest cost economy in the EU. The IMF was just pointing out the obvious.

Our standard of living depends on whether you are basing it on GNP or GDP. On the low tax point are you taking account of indirect taxation?

On the Euro point, it would be interesting to compare inflation from then to subsequent years.

RiverWilde

cfcj wrote: »

If you live in one of these towns its not a case of don't shop there because we are talking about food, they need to be able to buy food.

Well I do all my shopping in NI in ASDA ... they just slap Tesco around the place. Walmart are not much better than Tesco but they don't have a presence in the south as yet. Rumours about Dunnes aside.

People complain about the prices here in Tesco/Dunnes/Musgraves wherever. If the large multiples can't hack it that's too bad. When I'm not shopping in the north I'll buy everything in either Lidl or Aldi.

I'm fed up of the attitude amonst some retailers that they feel that they are entitled to make us pay through the nose for good quality food. I can find things in either Aldi or Lidl at good prices that you simply won't see in Tesco's et al. The same applies to ASDA.

I'm not going to feed my children chicken burgers because decent food is outside of what I consider to be a fair price.

The insane thing is that every week I see the local Dunnes and Tesco car parks jammed to capacity with people shopping there.

First Tesco came out with the whole 'pauper line' of products ... that didn't work ... and rightly so and now they're trying to ship in stuff from the UK and avoid sourcing stuff in the south.

As far as I'm concerned ... all they worry about is their bottom line ... and if that's their attitude I'll just have to match them and take my money to someone that provides what I want at a decent price.

Where were these 'price cuts' a month ago? a year ago? etc etc. These shops have made a bloody killing over the past ten years.

Don't get me wrong business operates to make money ... I'm happy to provide someones bread and butter but I'll be damned if I'll provide caviar!

Riv

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

It's accepted we are one of, if not the highest cost economy in the EU. The IMF was just pointing out the obvious.

Our standard of living depends on whether you are basing it on GNP or GDP. On the low tax point are you taking account of indirect taxation?

On the Euro point, it would be interesting to compare inflation from then to subsequent years.

who is accepting it? have you evaluated each and every one of the cost bases in the EU? or have you just accepted someone's opinion?

How does this relate though to Tesco?

benj

fcuk tesco...there no cheaper than dunnes or supervalu unless they want to get rid of short dated crap...:mad:

cfcj

RiverWilde wrote: »

Well I do all my shopping in NI in ASDA ... they just slap Tesco around the place. Walmart are not much better than Tesco but they don't have a presence in the south as yet. Rumours about Dunnes aside.

People complain about the prices here in Tesco/Dunnes/Musgraves wherever. If the large multiples can't hack it that's too bad. When I'm not shopping in the north I'll buy everything in either Lidl or Aldi.

I'm fed up of the attitude amonst some retailers that they feel that they are entitled to make us pay through the nose for good quality food. I can find things in either Aldi or Lidl at good prices that you simply won't see in Tesco's et al. The same applies to ASDA.

I'm not going to feed my children chicken burgers because decent food is outside of what I consider to be a fair price.

The insane thing is that every week I see the local Dunnes and Tesco car parks jammed to capacity with people shopping there.

First Tesco came out with the whole 'pauper line' of products ... that didn't work ... and rightly so and now they're trying to ship in stuff from the UK and avoid sourcing stuff in the south.

As far as I'm concerned ... all they worry about is their bottom line ... and if that's their attitude I'll just have to match them and take my money to someone that provides what I want at a decent price.

Where were these 'price cuts' a month ago? a year ago? etc etc. These shops have made a bloody killing over the past ten years.

Don't get me wrong business operates to make money ... I'm happy to provide someones bread and butter but I'll be damned if I'll provide caviar!

Riv

How does the independant retailers and local butcher, green grocer etc, favour with price? ASDA?? eek they are 10 times worse than Tesco, the Ryanair of retail.

K-9

cfcj wrote: »

who is accepting it? have you evaluated each and every one of the cost bases in the EU? or have you just accepted someone's opinion?

How does this relate though to Tesco?

OK, we have one of the highest cost bases in the EU.

Tesco are addressing this.

PS. Can you answer some questions before asking others?

K-9

RiverWilde wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned ... all they worry about is their bottom line ... and if that's their attitude I'll just have to match them and take my money to someone that provides what I want at a decent price.

And you worry about your bottom line.

So do Tesco, the farmers, Super Value, The independents moaning about Tesco, RGDATA the biggest vested interest in retail etc.

Let us all be sure on one thing, everybody has a vested interest in all of this.

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

OK, we have one of the highest cost bases in the EU.

Tesco are addressing this.

PS. Can you answer some questions before asking others?

I think I will take a different opinion about Ireland's cost base. The only way to a creditable measure of taxation from country to country is as a percentage of GDP. Ireland is at 34%, the UK at 39%, France at 46%, Germany at 40%, Spain at 37%. This is total revenue as a percentage of GDP and perfectly acceptable to compare to other states.

I have no interest in what issues Tesco are addressing until it can address how it can charge €4 for a pair of mens shorts. I presume they prefer the cost base of Bangladesh with a workforce as low as 12yrs. Which incidently would be illegal in Ireland thankfully.

K-9

cfcj wrote: »

I think I will take a different opinion about Ireland's cost base. The only way to a creditable measure of taxation from country to country is as a percentage of GDP. Ireland is at 34%, the UK at 39%, France at 46%, Germany at 40%, Spain at 37%. This is total revenue as a percentage of GDP and perfectly acceptable to compare to other states.

I have no interest in what issues Tesco are addressing until it can address how it can charge €4 for a pair of mens shorts. I presume they prefer the cost base of Bangladesh with a workforce as low as 12yrs. Which incidently would be illegal in Ireland thankfully.

I have already mentioned there is a difference between GNP and GDP, especially in an Irish context. The difference is perfectly acceptable.

Do you recognise that?

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

I have already mentioned there is a difference between GNP and GDP, especially in an Irish context. The difference is perfectly acceptable.

Do you recognise that?

I think its safe to say that I'm familiar with the concept. Pointless discussion in relation to the thread though.

RiverWilde

cfcj wrote: »

How does the independant retailers and local butcher, green grocer etc, favour with price? ASDA?? eek they are 10 times worse than Tesco, the Ryanair of retail.

The cost of 'everything' here is inflated and yes walmart are aggressive as bad if not worse than tesco but frankly ... the prices charged here are totally insane ....

The only reason prices have started to come down at all is because people have stopped paying the daft prices. Going accross the border, using lidl and aldi. The multiples have taken their customers for granted.

I used to work for one of them a long time ago and the mantra drummed into me was 'look after the customers, they pay your wages.' Well it seems to me that they've forgotten that mantra.

God forbid the share price would drop, god forbid the dividend to shareholders would drop ... so they respond by strangling their suppliers and sourcing in 'far far away locations.'

I've seen shops around where I'm living dump their deals with musgraves and source their stuff from the UK or other places. It seems that there is a huge hike in price between the supplier and the shop shelf. The customer is getting screwed and so is the supplier.

However, for me I have to feed my tribe and the only way I can do that is by taking my custom to a shop that's fairly priced. If that's ASDA so be it.

Riv

K-9

cfcj wrote: »

I think its safe to say that I'm familiar with the concept. Pointless discussion in relation to the thread though.

It is salient to the point when you reference GDP as a source and you yourself, referenced the tax point.

So seeing as you are familiar, what is the difference?

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

It is when you point to GDP as a source and you yourself, referenced the tax point.

So seeing as you are familiar, what is the difference?

I didn't realise I was back doing my Economics leaving certificate exam. The topic of off thread mate, take it to somewhere else. Congratulations that you know what the difference is also. I'm so proud of you.

K-9

cfcj wrote: »

I didn't realise I was back doing my Economics leaving certificate exam. The topic of off thread mate, take it to somewhere else. Congratulations that you know what the difference is also. I'm so proud of you.

From your reply, you recognise comparing GDP means nothing in Irish terms.

Thanks, everybody can discount the taxation point as a cost base.

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

From your reply, you recognise comparing GDP means nothing in Irish terms.

Thanks, everybody can discount the taxation point as a cost base.

Don't be so arrogant to tell me what I recognise or not. I think I have made my point clear on Irish taxation. Taxation as a percentage of GDP is widely used by economists and fair to compare like with like. If you can produce the less used GNP comparable results then great.

As for Ireland's cost base I have made no other comment other than I choose that the IMF's evaluation might be exaggerated.

I have no idea what "taxation point as a cost base" is.

Since you seem to be defending Tesco saying that they are addressing the cost of doing business here, can you also address how they are exploiting people in Bangladesh? (source Channel 4 News)

Are they addressing the issue there also or is it just where they would rather the conditions more favourable to making money, and disregard for who they walk on to do so?

Then there is the staff in the Douglas, Cork, store where Tesco have relocated the store and used this time to change the terms and conditions of the staff who have worked there for many many years. Ending all the accrued benefits and entitlements requesting for all the staff to re-apply for their own job in the new store. Is this them addressing the cost base in Ireland?

Please answer my questions before you have one of your own.

K-9

cfcj wrote: »

Don't be so arrogant to tell me what I recognise or not. I think I have made my point clear on Irish taxation. Taxation as a percentage of GDP is widely used by economists and fair to compare like with like. If you can produce the less used GNP comparable results then great.

As for Ireland's cost base I have made no other comment other than I choose that the IMF's evaluation might be exaggerated.

I have no idea what "taxation point as a cost base" is.

Since you seem to be defending Tesco saying that they are addressing the cost of doing business here, can you also address how they are exploiting people in Bangladesh? (source Channel 4 News)

Are they addressing the issue there also or is it just where they would rather the conditions more favourable to making money, and disregard for who they walk on to do so?

Then there is the staff in the Douglas, Cork, store where Tesco have relocated the store and used this time to change the terms and conditions of the staff who have worked there for many many years. Ending all the accrued benefits and entitlements requesting for all the staff to re-apply for their own job in the new store. Is this them addressing the cost base in Ireland?

Please answer my questions before you have one of your own.

OK, you better have a quick read of this if you want to use GDP as a measure:
http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2005/09/is_ireland_real.html

That was the simplest link after a quick google. Economists recognise this basic fact.

Also bear in mind we have low direct tax rates but high indirect rates.

I am in no way defending Tesco, I just don't trust organisations like the IFA and RGDATA and Musgraves.

noodler

Economics 101. GDP is a vastly overinflted stat in Ireland since a huge proportion of profits made here are repatriated abroad.

Our wages are another huge problem.

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

OK, you better have a quick read of this if you want to use GDP as a measure:
http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2005/09/is_ireland_real.html

That was the simplest link after a quick google. Economists recognise this basic fact.

Also bear in mind we have low direct tax rates but high indirect rates.

I am in no way defending Tesco, I just don't trust organisations like the IFA and RGDATA and Musgraves.

You are using a report about our wealth and use of GDP and GNP to argue what exactly? I think if you read my earlier post you will see that I don't think Ireland is a wealthy nation in comparison to the UK, Germany, France etc.

I took statistics that indicate how much tax (all revenue) we pay in relation to GDP like for like with other nations. Like I said, if you have information in regard to our GNP like for like with other countries then please by all means furnish it.

The point being we pay less tax in Ireland overall than many of our European counterparts.

With regard to the IFA, its for you to trust, or not, but they are an organisation that represents a large portion of the farming population so I will take their point on board. If you have issues with them then thats between you and them. I don't believe I had mentioned RGDATA or Musgraves.

In relation to Tesco it was you that said:

"OK, we have one of the highest cost bases in the EU. Tesco are addressing this"

You haven't answered how they are addressing this or answered my earlier questions....

noodler

cfcj wrote: »

You are using a report about our wealth and use of GDP and GNP to argue what exactly? I think if you read my earlier post you will see that I don't think Ireland is a wealthy nation in comparison to the UK, Germany, France etc.

I took statistics that indicate how much tax (all revenue) we pay in relation to GDP like for like with other nations. Like I said, if you have information in regard to our GNP like for like with other countries then please by all means furnish it.

The point being we pay less tax in Ireland overall than many of our European counterparts.

With regard to the IFA, its for you to trust, or not, but they are an organisation that represents a large portion of the farming population so I will take their point on board. If you have issues with them then thats between you and them. I don't believe I had mentioned RGDATA or Musgraves.

In relation to Tesco it was you that said:

"OK, we have one of the highest cost bases in the EU. Tesco are addressing this"

You haven't answered how they are addressing this or answered my earlier questions....

You were earlier using tax as a % of GDP. Now since we can all agree GDP is a misleading stat in Ireland, that would push that % up in real terms.

In anycase, taxation is only one element in attracting investment.

If taxation were the only one, then we would have no problems with a Corporation tax rate of 12.5%.

Wages, education, infrastructure, stupidly high rents (less of a problem at the moment of course) are all important things for a MNC to consider.

cfcj

noodler wrote: »

You were earlier using tax as a % of GDP. Now since we can all agree GDP is a misleading stat in Ireland, that would push that % up in real terms.

In anycase, taxation is only one element in attracting investment.

If taxation were the only one, then we would have no problems with a Corporation tax rate of 12.5%.

Wages, education, infrastructure, stupidly high rents (less of a problem at the moment of course) are all important things for a MNC to consider.

Who is discussing attracting investment? I was using a plausible like for like comparison to gage the total revenue from tax paid. Again if anyone wishes to put together the same statistics for GNP that is up to them. The use of GDP and GNP is twisting what is actually being said.

The most pressing issue for Ireland is getting its production up again and tackling the decreasing trade surplus.

(In general) Anyone advocating that we get more dependent on cheap imports is absolute stupid. Even our reliance on multi-nationals is unhealthy, what would we do if they all pulled out tomorrow? I personally don't want a nanny state and would hope people would start realising this out before government has to step in and over regulate the market, which in turn will have repercussions making Ireland a less attractive place to do business.

noodler

cfcj wrote: »

Who is discussing attracting investment? I was using a plausible like for like comparison to gage the total revenue from tax paid. Again if anyone wishes to put together the same statistics for GNP that is up to them. The use of GDP and GNP is twisting what is actually being said.

The most pressing issue for Ireland is getting its production up again and tackling the decreasing trade surplus.

(In general) Anyone advocating that we get more dependent on cheap imports is absolute stupid. Even our reliance on multi-nationals is unhealthy, what would we do if they all pulled out tomorrow? I personally don't want a nanny state and would hope people would start realising this out before government has to step in and over regulate the market, which in turn will have repercussions making Ireland a less attractive place to do business.

As a small open economy with miniscule population and no seriously valuable natural resources, we will aways be fare more dependent on FDI.

cfcj

noodler wrote: »

As a small open economy with miniscule population and no seriously valuable natural resources, we will aways be fare more dependent on FDI.

I don't disagree that are or we will be more dependent on foreign investment, I don't believe I have indicated otherwise.

K-9

cfcj wrote: »

I was using a plausible like for like comparison to gage the total revenue from tax paid. Again if anyone wishes to put together the same statistics for GNP that is up to them. The use of GDP and GNP is twisting what is actually being said.

It isn't plausible and it twists the real scenario. I'll try and dig out some stats on GNP. Might have been the economics forum they where on.

cfcj wrote: »

I didn't realise I was back doing my Economics leaving certificate exam. The topic of off thread mate, take it to somewhere else. Congratulations that you know what the difference is also. I'm so proud of you.

Well unfortunately you brought up the stuff on tax.

cfcj wrote: »

You are using a report about our wealth and use of GDP and GNP to argue what exactly? I think if you read my earlier post you will see that I don't think Ireland is a wealthy nation in comparison to the UK, Germany, France etc.

Ah right, thought you might have seen the holes in using GDP figures. Sure we where the second richest country in the EU last year, don't you know? :cool:

I'm well aware of Tesco, Primark, Walmart etc. Very few aren't. Tesco are simply responding to the millions being lost to NI and really I'd prefer that money spent in my local town, not Derry.

What alternative do you suggest?

cfcj

K-9 wrote: »

It isn't plausible and it twists the real scenario. I'll try and dig out some stats on GNP. Might have been the economics forum they where on.




Well unfortunately you brought up the stuff on tax.



Ah right, thought you might have seen the holes in using GDP figures. Sure we where the second richest country in the EU last year, don't you know? :cool:

I'm well aware of Tesco, Primark, Walmart etc. Very few aren't. Tesco are simply responding to the millions being lost to NI and really I'd prefer that money spent in my local town, not Derry.

What alternative do you suggest?

I think the point I have made on which you seem to want to cloud over is very simple. A comparison of total tax paid as a percentage of GDP with other countries. We are a low tax economy, you might find that hard to believe but this is the reality. This has no baring on the wealth of the nation. You can be the poorest country and still have low taxes. Still you seem to want to bang on about it so thats your thing.

I know I pay less taxes in Ireland than I did in the UK. I know also that my rent in London (zone 3) in a room smaller than the one I'm about to rent in Dublin was €250 a month more expensive. I also had a yearly zone 1-3 travel card which cost £1208. Incidentally like for like the same job here is just slightly less. Also isn't there something here that only 10% of the tax income is paid by the majority of PAYE workers? - This is my personal position and I know its not the same as everyone else.

I think the alternative is quite easy... Tesco isn't the only outlet to buy your groceries. Well that might change if they kill off more competition. Have you honestly checked Tesco up against the local butcher, green grocer or even the local suppliers? I know my butcher is cheaper and the quality of the veg I get from my green grocer is far superior to Tesco. Toiletries I buy from Dunnes and anything I can't source locally. There isn't a SuperValue near me but I would shop there also.

If you feel there is no alternative to shopping in Tesco that is for you to determine, I believe there is and I also do not want Tesco to dominate the Irish market the way they have in the UK.

K-9

OK, the latest figures I could get was 06:
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1011514.shtml

In 05, tax as a % of GDP was 30.6%, to GNP 36.2%. I take it your 34% figure is more recent so it is probably closer to 40% now. Obviously in a time when both GNP and GDP are falling and tax increases, that isn't going to get any lower soon.

We are a low tax economy by European standards especially when it comes to direct taxes and that is true. However it hides what the politicians don't want to tell you, our indirect taxes are in the higher half of the EU15. You'll be aware of the differences in VAT rates and car prices from your time in the UK. It's the main reason our tax take has drastically reduced. It's nothing personal, just pointing out a common misconception.

Bear in mind too that Health Insurance is nearly a necessity here, not in the UK. Another indirect tax not counted in calculations.

Don't know how you got the idea I only shop in Tesco. I shop where the best bargains are. Don't think anybody is arguing Tesco are whiter than white but there move has put pressure on the competition. Dunnes and Super Value announced cuts of up to €30 a week recently, which begs the question, why so long? Maybe Musgraves aren't that innocent?

There is a strong independent sector here, mainly because of RGDATA and Musgraves.

tv3

I hope peolpe bycot tesco as this is a disgrace !

murpheous81

Guaranteed irish = Guaranteed Expensive.

If you want cheap groceries then there is no way that it can be sourced from Ireland. If you want quality products yeah I agree that Ireland is secind to none in providing such products. But for those who complain about rip off Ireland cannot expect to get Irish products at a cheaper price.

Why do you think Dunnes Stores is fu**ed? It cannot avail of the vast discount s available when buying for an international firms like Tescos, Aldi or Lidl.

So if you want cheap produce then don't expect to buy Irish, if you want to buy Irish then don't winge and moan about being ripped off.