Minimum wage.

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

You do realise though that the last 10 years was a credit fueled mirage of prosperity across the globe don't you? The bubble has burst!!!

Look, I think you are making some very good points but overall my belief is that it is free market economic thinking that got us in to this mess and I dont think that free market economic ideas are going to get us out of it.
My ideas in general about our future would be as punitive as yours and I agree that we are going to all lower our living standards however I dont want to go back to free market economics of the mad house.
I dont think our citizens are active enough citizens, I think the figures of our foreign debt per capita are very very scary over $500k per person.
I am even open to the idea of the only loans being given for the next ten years being mortgages and business loans.

murphaph

I am advocating a serious look at the minimum wage as I believe it's too high for us to compete internationally in these changed times. I do not believe in an unregulated free market and totally believe that the regulation of banks (in particular) was insufficient and needs strengthening, especially seeing as we taxpayers are now holding the babies.

I just think we need to be realistic about what we can afford to pay ourselves before it's too late.

lmimmfn

ireland needs a reality check, both the minimum wage and current welfare payments keep the cost of everything sky high here,

An example would be McDonalds staff, they are( maybe were lol ) getting over 10 euro an hour, for a crap menial job, of course that caused the prices of burgers and what not there to hit the roof, its the same for anything else.

Social welfare and minimum wage are the bottom of the barrel, increases/decreases in them directly affect the price of nearly everything in this country, if its artificially high then the cost of everything else will be artificially high.

It really is a no brainer, i remember back in 2002/2003 they increased the minimum wage by 25cent or something like that and then the price of pints went up everywhere in dublin by 5 cent lol

ynotdu

Its all the fault of the lowest income members of society.The people who only think in Billions or short term electoral support(the superior silver spooned ones)are innocent!!!!!!!!


Free the Banking six!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


yadah yadah yadah................

murphaph

ynotdu wrote: »

Its all the fault of the lowest income members of society.The people who only think in Billions or short term electoral support(the superior silver spooned ones)are innocent!!!!!!!!


Free the Banking six!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


yadah yadah yadah................

If you can't manage to construct an argument then don't bother posting. You seem to have a fixation with apportioning blame to someone for our economic woes.

Well, people are to blame. Everyone. Governments for failing to regulate lending, banks for lending irresponsibly and ordinary joes for borrowing irresponsibly. We have been living off imaginary money for years now. Wealth is not measured by your credit card limit!

The senior bankers should be hung drawn and quartered as far as I'm concerned but that won't bring our economy into a position where it is competitive with even the likes of Germany.

The "lowest paid" in ireland are still better paid than their counterparts in other EU countries. That's the problem. We can continue to believe that it'll all blow over and that factories aren't closing down every day and then we'll find ourselves in 1950's Ireland again. Ireland dragged itself out of the bog by being a competitive place to do business.

Niall Keane

Advocating the abolition of the minimum wage amounts to inflicting upon the plebs people a life of tenuery, of course some people would only be too thrilled of the prospect of spending their life hiding from debt collectors and landlords, in insecure rented apartments, where the threat of eviction for their families and constantly having to say no to their children are not passages out of Dickens but daily life. Smiling constantly and further delighted to see their entrepreneur risk- taking boss pass by their bus stop in his BMW.
Well then why not be totally honest with ourselves, guarantee the success of weak Irish business, and introduce a new industry all in one, by reintroducing slavery? Anyone interested in buying a few boats in Wexford, raiding up and down the British and French coasts for slaves to sell back to the small / weak businesses at home?

djpbarry

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Some people visit Sweeden , Norway and Denmark even though its a more expensive than Ireland.

Scandinavian countries are nowhere near as dependent on tourism as Ireland is.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Advocating the abolition of the minimum wage amounts to inflicting upon the plebs people a life of tenuery, of course some people would only be too thrilled of the prospect of spending their life hiding from debt collectors and landlords, in insecure rented apartments, where the threat of eviction for their families and constantly having to say no to their children are not passages out of Dickens but daily life.

:rolleyes: Yeah because landlords are far more interested in ensnaring Bob Cratchit’s than they are in making money.

Niall Keane

??? This thread isn’t about the nature of landlords; primetime has already exposed what some are capable of. Please don’t do what Irish politicians excel at, grabbing an aside, a hook, to deviate from the main point at hand. Fundamentally I believe that those who advocate lowering the minimum wage aren’t on it. In another time such people would have protested the abolition of slavery. Who will pick our cotton fields now? They are the pariahs of history, although it will take perhaps some further time to pass before they are universally condemned as such.
Many “businesses” in the past required what we now define as slaves. Bread and board alone was provided for. Well below the minimum wage you’re swapping steel chains for economic ones. The last 10 years have seen many businesses sprout up, at a time when they couldn’t fail. Perhaps readjustment requires such untested enterprises to fail. Why should they be supported to string people along in misery? Dropping minimum wage and welfare is exactly that, a poorhouse mentality. Some so called “risk-taking” b@£$%*d is propped up and rewarded for finding a way to extract profit from another person’s misery. If you can’t afford to pay then get off the bus pal!
Is it not as wrong now to profit from a venture that requires “employees” to suffer economic bondage as it was a century ago to profit from an industry that required slaves?

greendom

This society is unequal enough already without lowering the minimum wage to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Let's not use these difficult times as an excuse to create even more inequality.

djpbarry

Niall Keane wrote: »

Fundamentally I believe that those who advocate lowering the minimum wage aren’t on it.

I haven’t actually advocated a lowering of the minimum wage, but I am open to the idea.

Niall Keane wrote: »

In another time such people would have protested the abolition of slavery. Who will pick our cotton fields now? They are the pariahs of history, although it will take perhaps some further time to pass before they are universally condemned as such.

I’m sorry, what? Anyone who advocates a lowering of the minimum wage might as well be advocating slavery?

murphaph

You're witnessing the typical overreaction I expect when a person suggests we are paid too much in Ireland. Compare our minimum wage to the US states and even to our EU neighbours-then ask why so many firms are shutting up shop.

It's all well and fine for people to be principled but when will these people accept that we are no longer able to compete internationally? When Intel closes down? Guinness?

We cant afford to be principled because we don't have a unique selling point/product/service/niche that can't be done in the UK/Germany/Poland cheaper! We are NOT scandinavia with their high value indigenous industries! We FAILED to develop these industries and now we must work for less money than before.

murphaph

greendom wrote: »

This society is unequal enough already without lowering the minimum wage to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Let's not use these difficult times as an excuse to create even more inequality.

I suggest you take a trip to India/China or even the United States to see a truly unequal society. Anybody who wanted to make a living over the last decade had the opportunity to do so.

I'm not talking about making the rish richer, I'm talking about keeping business viable!

irish_bob

greendom wrote: »

This society is unequal enough already without lowering the minimum wage to make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

Let's not use these difficult times as an excuse to create even more inequality.

this is a great country in which to be ( poor ) , stop talking ****e

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

I just think we need to be realistic about what we can afford to pay ourselves before it's too late.

In that case then lets start at the top and work down or i am not on board the ship. I think part of the reason (subconscoiusly) that so many people think reducing the min wage is a good idea is because their hourly rate is no where near it.
In other words, hit the skangers, sure they are to thick to do anything about it.

eamonnm79

murphaph wrote: »

I suggest you take a trip to India/China or even the United States to see a truly unequal society. Anybody who wanted to make a living over the last decade had the opportunity to do so.

I'm not talking about making the rish richer, I'm talking about keeping business viable!

Oh well then lets not follow their example, Lets run towards Berlin.
We are the 22nd most unequal society at the moment lets try to get away from the top of that list.

We have not done enough on loopholes until it is not worth a wealthy individuals while to hire an accountant. I am actually encouraged by the amount of people standing up for the less well off here. Its refreshing.

Jesus Im starting to hope!:)

jank

If the Minimum wage was to be reduced one first has to look at social welfare and all its perks. If you reduce the minimum wage than people wont work for it as they will get about the same on the dole.

Fix the dole first, then the minimum wage.

Do I agree with the minimum wage, I actually dont know. I am all for regulated and transparent free markets and capitalism but living on the minimum wage is tough! I wouldn't call it living. So its a tough one!

Ill sit on the fence for this one.:pac:

Highsider

iMO the dole needs to be cut in half and then the minimum wage raised to at least 10e per hour. Give people a reason to go to work

murphaph

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Oh well then lets not follow their example, Lets run towards Berlin.
We are the 22nd most unequal society at the moment lets try to get away from the top of that list.

We have not done enough on loopholes until it is not worth a wealthy individuals while to hire an accountant. I am actually encouraged by the amount of people standing up for the less well off here. Its refreshing.

Jesus Im starting to hope!:)

FYI, In germany, even people on low pay generally benefit from an accountant. It is normal for people here to at least have a tax consultant process their end of year tax returns to get as much back as possible. Different tax codes alow different deductibles-the german tax system is complex beyond belief and allows all sorts of strange write offs, so even johnny poor man gets an accountant in germany.

Where does Germany (with no minimum wage legislation) sit on that list Eamon? Better or worse than Ireland? (it's not a loaded question, I really don't know!)

Alcatel

Our minimum wage is too high - and remember, other scales of pay are benchmarked against the minimum wage. If the minimum wage goes up by 20c/x% an hour then somebody on 10 or 15 per hour will expect to see their salary go up as well.

We need to lower the cost to employ, across all sectors and salary levels, because we are priced out of the market. To pay somebody 20k a year to stack shop shelves is completely unrealistic, considering how many businesses that employ these people are low margin, go-to-the-wall for the sake of a few thousand euro in tens of thousands of turnover.

Also, employers pay 10.75% on top of wages in social taxes. So, the cost to employ someone on minimum wage of they're working 40 hours per week is 19,926.14 per year (17,992 wage + 1,934.14 tax).

We got the gig of being the international hub of foreign direct investment by being low-cost. We need that back.

Niall Keane

"We cant afford to be principled"

love this, the "we" never effects the individual speaking! A real hero!

But why not? Bring back slavery as I said, or we could become a nation of whores, everyone on €200 an hour? Sure most of the nation is used to being taken up the ass by now?

Alcatel

Niall Keane wrote: »

"We cant afford to be principled"

love this, the "we" never effects the individual speaking! A real hero!

But why not? Bring back slavery as I said, or we could become a nation of whores, everyone on €200 an hour? Sure most of the nation is used to being taken up the ass by now?

That's a retorical argument. So was his. Taking an argument to the far 100% extreme is no good. It needs to be measured.

murphaph

ESRI reports today that a further 300,000 (that's THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND!) jobs will go between now and the end of 2010! That's a near DOUBLING of the current 11% ELEVEN PERCENT! unemployment.

But sure everything's fine. We can afford the current minimum wage and the current social welfare payments. Everything's fine. You think the people being intervied on RTE right now wouldn't work for say €5 an hour if the dole (and associated benefits) was cut to below this? We need people in work, even if it's for similar money to the dole. Aside from the fact that being on the dole is soul destroying, people working for similar money to the dole won't be taking dole out of the exchequer.

Its time for EVERYONE to work in the national interest, this just happens to include the lowest paid/unemployed.

greendom

murphaph wrote: »

Its time for EVERYONE to work in the national interest, this just happens to include the lowest paid/unemployed.

And if the bankers, property developers etc etc, had worked in the national interest then perhaps we wouldn't be in this mess now. Interesting how when things get tough it's ok for the weakest and most vulnerable to suffer the most.

maninasia

Niall Keane wrote: »

Advocating the abolition of the minimum wage amounts to inflicting upon the plebs people a life of tenuery, of course some people would only be too thrilled of the prospect of spending their life hiding from debt collectors and landlords, in insecure rented apartments, where the threat of eviction for their families and constantly having to say no to their children are not passages out of Dickens but daily life. Smiling constantly and further delighted to see their entrepreneur risk- taking boss pass by their bus stop in his BMW.
Well then why not be totally honest with ourselves, guarantee the success of weak Irish business, and introduce a new industry all in one, by reintroducing slavery? Anyone interested in buying a few boats in Wexford, raiding up and down the British and French coasts for slaves to sell back to the small / weak businesses at home?

This is a typical response when anybody proposes to change something in Ireland, all emotion and no logic. There are very very few people who would argue for an abolition of the minimum wage, what it clear though it that the min. wage as it is set now make the cost of a 'job' more expensive in Ireland than elsewhere for many positions. This comes into play when1. The company wants to lower it's cost of product/service for local market/export to compete with imported products/international competitors2. The employer has a choice to hire in Ireland or outside Ireland. The decision is often made for them when they compare the huge difference in rates for a relatively equivalent worker. No matter how much you think you can regulate things, you cannot regulate what other countries pay their workers or how hard or educated their workforce is.3. The company wants to establish a new manufacturing base in Ireland, cost of general operative labour is a major consideration for basic level assembly/packaging positions.The whole system can be adjusted to make the economy more competitive and to provide more job opportunities for residents of Ireland- reduce social welfare, reduce taxes, reduce minimum wage and ALL wages, reduce electricity and food costs (state price control for the moment until real competition is introduced). Since we cannot control the Euro this is one of the major ways we can make our economy strong again.

djpbarry

greendom wrote: »

Interesting how when things get tough it's ok for the weakest and most vulnerable to suffer the most.

I would imagine that there are quite a few unemployed people who fall into the "weakest and most vulnerable" category.

b12mearse

murphaph wrote: »

It may surprise many to hear that there is no minimum wage in Germany and you can legally work for €1 an hour (so called "mini-jobs"). Germany would be perceived by many as an expensive place to do business but in reality, is Ireland the bloated overpaid sick man of Europe? Is it time for the minimum wage to go? Or be reduced dramatically? Is it preventing employers from hiring? Would some people rather stay in low(er) paid employment than sit on the dole and stagnate? I believe the answer is yes. Any opinions on the minimum wage?

If the minimum wage got any lower it wouldn't make sense to work. You would be better off on the doel.

murphaph

greendom wrote: »

And if the bankers, property developers etc etc, had worked in the national interest then perhaps we wouldn't be in this mess now.

Probably not, but nobody put guns to the heads of "ordinary joes" and forced them to take out credit cards and buy the latest 42" plasma telly. You know it's the truth that the "ordinary joes" have responsibility to bear as well. Personal debt is personal debt-nobody forced anybody to buy anything. Irish people in general, splurged like there was no tomorrow. It's unfair to blame others for our own personal irresponsibility (I include myself in that). Property booms are a result of a strong desire for home ownership. They occur wherever home ownership is seen as "important" (Ireland, UK, US, Japan etc.) and do not generally occur in countries with a tradition of renting (eg, Germany).

Don't get me wrong, certain individuals and institutions behaved very wrecklessy and have a LOT of responsibility to bear, but what PRACTICAL use is pointing the finger at the CEOs of irish banks and development companies? Sure, these characters should be held to account, but even if every one of them had their pay cut to €5 an hour, it wouldn't make a dent in Ireland's complete lack of competitiveness on the international stage. The population as a whole must be prepared for a fall in living standards. If not, it's simply game over and ALL our jobs will go to other EU countries and beyond.

greendom wrote: »

Interesting how when things get tough it's ok for the weakest and most vulnerable to suffer the most.

Yes. That is unfortunately the way of things. It's the same across the industrialised world, but as a poster above points out, we need to see ALL wages fall in line with a reduction of the minimum wage, including social welfare. We need to see the costs of living (and BUSINESS) fall in tandem-Bord Gais says gas and electricity will fall in cost by 11% from Friday. Costs of living ARE falling and wages MUST fall or industry will go elsewhere.

murphaph

b12mearse wrote: »

If the minimum wage got any lower it wouldn't make sense to work. You would be better off on the doel.

The dole and old age pension need to be cut significantly also. Look at the dole in the UK or Germany. The dole is NOT meant to replace your salary if you lose your job. You should expect to significantly reduce your outgoings if you are unfortunate enough to lose your job.

b12mearse

murphaph wrote: »

The dole and old age pension need to be cut significantly also. Look at the dole in the UK or Germany. The dole is NOT meant to replace your salary if you lose your job. You should expect to significantly reduce your outgoings if you are unfortunate enough to lose your job.

It makes financial sense to be on the doel.
Maybe that's the Government plan in the long run, to reduce it because somethings gotta give. I'm making more money on the doel now than I did as a dishwasher in dublin.

Niall Keane

O.k. maninasia, let me break this down into baby logic, and refrain from imagery and literary allusion.
1. living on the minimum wage in this country = a life of poverty
2. reducing the minimum wage further = more extreme poverty
Doing this to entice foreign enterprise who are always looking for the cheapest employees = a race to the bottom. It amounts to a short term gain, before they find an even cheaper base. Does this really have to be explained to an Irish Person?
Doing this to support failing Irish business = propping them up on the backs of those who can least afford it. (like what we’re doing for the banks) This amounts to providing a workforce who are expected to live in poverty to keep such businesses viable. In my book this is slavery.
Johnny is a slave, he works for his master who provides him with just enough to survive.
Tony is an employee, he works for his boss who pays him just enough so he can survive.
Bottom line: Do we want to encourage business that subjects our citizens to wage slavery? Yes other countries have less social safety nets, but 40% of the world’s population don’t have sanitary facilities. India is a great example of a low paying economy, and the incredible variation between rich and poor. I think what is being advocated here is immoral, the creation of our own untouchable class to prop up a failing economy. I have no doubt that those calling for such measures have never actually faced poverty.
Let them eat cake!