O' Learys replacement on the Lions?

toomevara

Ben Foden

Stev_o wrote: »

Ill cry (metaphorically of course) if he spends the rest of his playing days as a SH. Someone who has as much talent as Jason Robinson and who is just natural gifted at being a full back should never be confined to SH. There's things he's done things in a 15 shirt that make you completely gob smacked.

Absolutely agree, but he does look special in the 9 shirt too. A massive talent, question is what to do with him?

leeroybrown

Chris Cusiter

As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts even Foden appears to have realised that his future is at full back despite leaving Sale for Northampton thinking he would get game time at scrum half. Lee Dickson is Northampton's first choice scrum half and with a few exceptions (like the recent Sale game) Foden has been starting at full back and gets limited time at scrum half when they replace backs late in games.

The problem with Foden always seems to have been that he wants to play scrum half and pretty much every coach who's had him wants to play him at full back to exploit his pace and running more fully.

Stev_o

Chris Cusiter

toomevara wrote: »

Absolutely agree, but he does look special in the 9 shirt too. A massive talent, question is what to do with him?

I actually think he looks ordinary at 9 as he tends to force the game on his terms rather then keeping a cool head. Again he is a stepper culprit and doesn't have a fast enough pass to be a SH but that said he is very dangerous at the base or at the back of the scrum when a small gap appears. But for the love of god 15 is where he should stay and become a world class player.

anonymous_joe

Ben Foden

il gatto wrote: »

He started and set up the Heaslip try with his break off the line out. :cool:

wixfjord, he must bring something as succesive coaches at Munster and Ireland have given him a decade long career and 90ish caps for Ireland. His pass is far better than Phillips. Phillips pass is frequently at the wrong height and the ball moves slower. It also takes him longer to get behind the ruck and longer to get the ball out. He's a good scrum half but his strenghts are size, running and defence. Stringer is a better, quicker passer. Horses for courses, but each can do things the other can't. That's why some people would like Stringer to go. And you can't compare Reddan to Stringer. A dire Wasps slugging it out mid table is Reddan's season. Stringer has been, or will be involved in a Grand Slam winning team and at the sharp end of the HEC. Reddan isn't even on the Lions radar.

Stringer benefited from a lack of competition.

He's extraordinary at what he does but both Reddan and O'Leary are more talented players with better all-round games. Stringer just happens to have the fastest pass of any Irish scrum-half.

toomevara wrote: »

Currently the form SH in England...watch a game if you can (he plays for Northampton), a serious talent and I'd say he'll be England's first choice 9 next year. If McGeechan is honestly picking on form, he's above Care, but without the international experience, the Bokke will eat him alive...

Foden's more of a full-back I reckon.

Was amazed he didn't go to the 6 Nations. England have some unreal talent around the place.

According to the Sunday Times it could be Cusiter.

I'd be inclined to agree with that, he's a phenomenal player, and scrum-halves have way more responsibility in France so tend to be more rounded confident players after playing there.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Stringer benefited from a lack of competition.

He's extraordinary at what he does but both Reddan and O'Leary are more talented players with better all-round games. Stringer just happens to have the fastest pass of any Irish scrum-half.

:D:D

So, Reddan left Munster to go to Wasps because they are a better team ... nothing to do with his being second to Stringer?

Foden's more of a full-back I reckon.

Was amazed he didn't go to the 6 Nations. England have some unreal talent around the place.

According to the Sunday Times it could be Cusiter.

I'd be inclined to agree with that, he's a phenomenal player, and scrum-halves have way more responsibility in France so tend to be more rounded confident players after playing there.

Your right about the 'unreal talent' bit - most of them are just over-hyped by the British media and get found out fairly quickly.

How many French clubs are in the knock-outs of the Heineken Cup this year? And the only French club to make it out of the pool stages has a kiwi as their SH. :rolleyes:

anonymous_joe

Ben Foden

thehighground wrote: »

:D:D

So, Reddan left Munster to go to Wasps because they are a better team ... nothing to do with his being second to Stringer?

Now that's just wumming. :P

Reddan went to Wasps in 2005. Munster then were not as strong as they are now. So quite possibly Wasps were a better team.

Kidney didn't rate Reddan (and clearly still doesn't) so he left. Seems a sensible choice to me. And given that Wasps are one of the most represented clubs at international level despite their awful form I don't see how mocking Reddan for playing for Wasps is in anyway accurate?

Your right about the 'unreal talent' bit - most of them are just over-hyped by the British media and get found out fairly quickly.

How many French clubs are in the knock-outs of the Heineken Cup this year? And the only French club to make it out of the pool stages has a kiwi as their SH. :rolleyes:

Danny Cipriani for all the hype is still quite obviously one of the most talented out-halves in the world. That game against Ireland last season when he tore us a new one is a sign of what he'll be like.

Guys like Foden and Cipriani get dismissed over here because the English media hypes people up. That's a recipe for disaster. Writing off England is a bit silly, they've a massive pool of players and some genuine quality just needs to be harnessed.

As for the French, I think it's madness that they're all out. Sure Clermont with 14 men totally outplayed Munster earlier this season, almost winning. I'd say if they played less rugby there'd be 2 or 3 French clubs still in the competition.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Now that's just wumming. :P

I thought you were wumming

Reddan went to Wasps in 2005. Munster then were not as strong as they are now. So quite possibly Wasps were a better team.

Stringer was first choice in Munster - by my logic (and I suspect most people's logic), the best player gets the jersey. Reddan didn't think he could get past Stringer. He didn't go as first choice to Wasps, but worked his way to starting for Wasps (fair play to him) something which he felt he couldn't do with Munster.

Kidney didn't rate Reddan (and clearly still doesn't) so he left. Seems a sensible choice to me. And given that Wasps are one of the most represented clubs at international level despite their awful form I don't see how mocking Reddan for playing for Wasps is in anyway accurate?

Kidney started Reddan in the autumn, but clearly Tomas O'leary has overtaken him (and Reddan's form has dropped).

Danny Cipriani for all the hype is still quite obviously one of the most talented out-halves in the world. That game against Ireland last season when he tore us a new one is a sign of what he'll be like.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. I think O'Gara has had quite a few great days in the Green shirt of Ireland as well (remember Ireland v the Boks when he scored all Ireland's points - far more relevant than Cips game against Ireland with an absent BOD (Shaggy as centre FFS), and a Paul O'Connell just coming back from being out for 6 months.

Guys like Foden and Cipriani get dismissed over here because the English media hypes people up. That's a recipe for disaster. Writing off England is a bit silly, they've a massive pool of players and some genuine quality just needs to be harnessed.

No one is writing them off. Its just they haven't done anything yet.

As for the French, I think it's madness that they're all out. Sure Clermont with 14 men totally outplayed Munster earlier this season, almost winning. I'd say if they played less rugby there'd be 2 or 3 French clubs still in the competition.

These French clubs are full of SH imports, their squads are treble the size of some of the Irish squads and they have massive budgets. John Hayes & Co. will have played a heck of a lot more rugby at a higher level than most these French/English players this season.

Chucky the tree

Chris Cusiter

I dont know why cipriani gets so much abuse. I also dont understand how Irish people can slag of the English for hyping up players, talk about pot kettle.

danthefan

Ben Foden

thehighground wrote: »

These French clubs are full of SH imports, their squads are treble the size of some of the Irish squads and they have massive budgets. John Hayes & Co. will have played a heck of a lot more rugby at a higher level than most these French/English players this season.

A very quick look at the Toulouse website says that isn't true. Since you mentioned him I looked up John Hayes' stats, there are about 12 Toulouse players who have played about the same/more rugby than him this season.

Edit - and there are still 2 T14 games + playoffs left in the season.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

A very quick look at the Toulouse website says that isn't true. Since you mentioned him I looked up John Hayes' stats, there are 12 Toulouse players who have played about the same/more rugby than him this season.

Did all of them play 8 x 80 minute full-blown internationals as well? Or did they get the odd breather against Brive, Dax etc.

Edit: How many of them are touring at the end of the season?

danthefan

Ben Foden

thehighground wrote: »

Did all of them play 8 x 80 minute full-blown internationals as well? Or did they get the odd breather against Brive etc.

Well Toulouse are full of internationals, a lot of them played most/all of the 6N.

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Well Toulouse are full of internationals, a lot of them played most/all of the 6N.

Yes, but they are also full of SH imports like Kelleher now and Trevor Brennan in his day.

Benoit Lecouls had 2 Test starts for France in 6Ns this year. How many games has he played for Toulouse (I couldn't find those stats on their website).

danthefan

Ben Foden

thehighground wrote: »

Yes, but they are also full of SH imports like Kelleher now and Trevor Brennan in his day.

Benoit Lecouls had 2 Test starts for France in 6Ns this year. How many games has he played for Toulouse (I couldn't find those stats on their website).

Erm... Mafi, Tipoki, Warwick, Howlett, Elsom, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa....

And I don't know about Lecouls, nor am I going to find out. Why?


Edit - I actually made a mistake looking at the stats earlier. I was looking at T14 only, so HEC gametime would have to be added to it. A lot of those players have played an awful lot of rugby this season.

Podge_irl

Chris Cusiter

Eh....scrum-halfs folks?


Wait, is it scrum-halfs or scrum-halves? I'm assuming the former...

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Erm... Mafi, Tipoki, Warwick, Howlett, Elsom, Wright, Contepomi, Nacewa....

And I don't know about Lecouls, nor am I going to find out. Why?


Edit - I actually made a mistake looking at the stats earlier. I was looking at T14 only, so HEC gametime would have to be added to it. A lot of those players have played an awful lot of rugby this season.

Anonymous Joe reckons that the French clubs (who are full of international standard players) would win more if they didn't have to play as much rugby as they do. I'd argue that someone like John Hayes in particular would play as much and a fair bit of his rugby would be a the top end of the scale stuff. I picked Lecouls because he is a French Prop in a club that will be in the French play-offs as I wanted to compare like with like.

Now, blame Joe for pulling us OT

RuggieBear

Ben Foden

erm....back on topic?

il gatto

Danny Care

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Stringer benefited from a lack of competition.

He's extraordinary at what he does but both Reddan and O'Leary are more talented players with better all-round games. Stringer just happens to have the fastest pass of any Irish scrum-half.


Foden's more of a full-back I reckon.

Was amazed he didn't go to the 6 Nations. England have some unreal talent around the place.

According to the Sunday Times it could be Cusiter.

I'd be inclined to agree with that, he's a phenomenal player, and scrum-halves have way more responsibility in France so tend to be more rounded confident players after playing there.

Early on in his career, maybe. But laterly, he's held off Boss, Reddan and initially O'Leary, before O'Leary dislodged him. He has remained second choice over Reddan and Boss. Lots of Irelands great players haven't had much competition for places. BoD, O'Connell, O'Gara, Hayes, the list goes on. The only person I can think of that's had real competition for his place up until the current set up, has been Flannery/Best and Dempsey/Murphy. Now thankfully we have competitcion for places, but Stringer is still there.

Foden is an outside shot, at best. He can play scrum half, but he doesn't. That's reason enough not to pick him. Like I said, it'll be a Scot. They'd like to bring Blair, they might settle for Cussiter on form. Cussiter is a great player when he gets going. Has a perfect scrum half game if he could retain find consistancy.

[Jackass]

Chris Cusiter

I like Peel but I'd take Blair. About 6 months ago I thought he was in with a shot of the Lions captaincey, now he's not even going.

Sh*t one for O'Leary though, an injury is always bad luck but right at the end of the season before a Lions tour is tragic for the guy!

Hope he gets well soon and he has the very small consolation of still being a Lion (even though he didn't make it on tour!)

stephen_n

Chris Cusiter

barnesd wrote: »

Voted for Care, he'd be a real unknown quantity in SA and he's been really impressive this season imo. A major factor in Quins' success this season.

Given the greatest ability he showed at international level was to get sent off I don't think he will or should be anywhere near a Lions tour.


Would love to see stringer go but given the original choices of SH his game does not match the game plan they are shaping up for!


Would say it would have to be Blair great wrist driven pass and can box kick as well as any of the original 3 SH's