Rear Wheel -- Flexing / Moving when climbing

scottreynolds

Now I am the first to admit that my weight is too heavy for my wheels..... however I have noticed just today that when going up hill I can flex the rear wheel into the rear brake pads. My brakes aren't to tight in fact the opposite, they however do have older brake pads so the brakes are narrow (if you know what I mean).

The wheels are Mavic Kysrium Elites.

I have two questions.....

1. Is this normal. Can you grad your rear wheel and pull it towards the left or right.

2. How can I fix it. I'm about to take the wheel off the bike and tighten the cassette and hub (mavic wheels come with a hub tool for tightening).


Its pretty important for me to resolve. If I can't I'll have to buy some new wheels in the next week..... its to annoying going up with a rubbing brake pad.

blorg

Yes, it is normal, stiffer wheels alleviate the issue. Deep section carbon is generally quite stiff It is often commented on in wheel reviews, whether it is possible to generate brake rub out of the saddle climbing.

When you grab your wheel and move it left and right does it just bend from the pressure or does it easily move to a stop in either direction? Bending is normal but if you can easily flick it left and right between two fixed points this is generally the bearings in the hub. I believe Mavic use sealed cartridge bearings so you need to replace these. I need to do this myself with a front wheel, not sure how involved/expensive the process is yet but I don't think it is crazy.

TinyExplosions

Happens on my Fulcrums too mate -very annoying as it happens

doozerie

If the axle is loose, or the bearings are worn, lift the back of the bike off the ground and you'll find that by lightly holding the rim you'll feel sideways play in the wheel. Or tap the rim with your fingers and you'll hear and feel the rim vibrate if there is play. If it is just loose, then by tightening the "nut" on the axle with the Mavic tool you should be able to eliminate the play. If the bearings are badly worn then you won't be able to eliminate the play or you'll have to tighten it too much to do so, both of which are obviously bad.

Replacing the sealed bearings is likely to be expensive, relatively speaking. Last time I bought sealed bearings for an old Mavic hub of mine, I think it cost me roughly 20euro per bearing (that's 40euro for one wheel). That's when buying the bearings in a bike shop - if you can find somewhere that supplies engineering parts you'll probably find the very same bearings for far less money. I sourced new bearings for the other Mavic hub that I had for less than half the cost by doing just that - you just need the code/serial number from the existing bearings which means getting them out before you can buy the new ones (or check online for the right part number).

The bearings should last a long time though, if they are of any reasonable quality. Mine lasted quite a while - over 20,000 miles I think. They were excellent hubs though - pricey at the time but great value. My more recent Mavic Cosmic Elites aren't on a par, I suspect, so the Ksyrium Elites might not be either. Even if that is the case though, they should still last a lot of miles (one of the benefits of sealed bearings). I think the problem is more likely just flexing of the wheel. As far as I know the Ksyrium Elite SL's, with their very good reputation, are considered to be reasonably flexible, so the Elites might be the same. Trying keeping your weight over the rear wheel when out of the saddle and see if the problem is as pronounced.

Incidentally, if you do end up replacing the bearings, unless the design has changed drastically since my older hubs were made it'll be a tricky job. Without the right tool for removing the bearings (basically, a slightly more sophisticated hammer) you'll have to do a butchering job to hammer them out with something like an old screwdriver. I've had to do that in the past and it was a right pain in the arse - the right tool proved to be well worth the money when I finally bought one.

doozerie

Oh, one other possible cause is loose spokes, so check the tension of the spokes by hand to see if they appear to be consistent all round the wheel (squeeze opposite pairs of spoke to check them). Again, not likely to be the problem though unless the wheel has had a very long and hard life, but worth checking nonetheless.

short circuit

With the previous thread you posted on issues with the bottom bracket creaks .. and now this ... my money would be on the bearings on the wheel going.

I've had lots of experience in this ... ... ok .. only twice ..

Here is how it goes ..

Slight wobble in rear wheel (you think they will last a few more miles) followed by Persumed bottom bracket creaks ... then more pronounced wobble in the rear wheel with brake rub ... then the freewheel will seize.

But then I could be reading too much into this ... and your wheels might just be flexing ... but if they have only started ... I would get them looked at.

scottreynolds

short circuit wrote: »

With the previous thread you posted on issues with the bottom bracket creaks .. and now this ... my money would be on the bearings on the wheel going.

Me bottom bracket creaks have gone ... It was the headset that needed replacing which Slane Cycles did for free as it shouldn't have been stuffed.

Thanks for all the other response guys. I tried to tighten the hub and the mavic tool snapped ---- plastic crap. I think I'll go out to Wheelworx or Cycleways and get them to look at it. I really need this sorted otherwise at blorgs recommendation I'll have to buy carbon wheels. The cost is irrelevant for replacement parts etc it just needs to be fixed Worst case is I'll buy the same rear wheel. Best case they tell me blorg was correct and here's a demo set of 404s for the ToI. Somewhere in the middle its fixed cheaply.

Raam

scottreynolds wrote: »

I tried to tighten the hub and the mavic tool snapped ---- plastic crap.

I have the same Mavic tool which you can try and break?

blorg

My suggestion of carbon wheels was slightly tongue in cheek, but you know you need them. Regarding plastic tools and snapping, often when a tool is made out of plastic it is related to the max amount of force that should be put on it, e.g. if you snap it you have already put too much force on the thing. Hollowtech cranks would be the example I am thinking of, I am not sure about this Mavic tool.

In my recent race I had brake rub on my rear R-SYS which I was a bit peeved about, it had been remarkably stiff before I thought.

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

I have the same Mavic tool which you can try and break?

Have you ever used it.... basically when if, early next week ,I ride around to yours you could tell me if there's a problem compared to your wheels. It could be my mind playing tricks.

I'll see how tomorrow shapes up but if I can't get to a shop tomorrow I'm ping ya.

P.S. I'll give you plenty of notice to remove your blue socks.

Raam

blorg wrote: »

Regarding plastic tools and snapping, often when a tool is made out of plastic it is related to the max amount of force that should be put on it, e.g. if you snap it you have already put too much force on the thing. Hollowtech cranks would be the example I am thinking of.

Yeah, don't be breaking me stuff, Scott

scottreynolds

blorg wrote: »

My suggestion of carbon wheels was slightly tongue in cheek.

Ignored.... shouldn't you mark that as a spoiler.... :mad:

blorg wrote: »

Regarding plastic tools and snapping, often when a tool is made out of plastic it is related to the max amount of force that should be put on it, e.g. if you snap it you have already put too much force on the thing.

Thanks .... I had to be sure... It actually just wasn't in properly so one of the 4 tabs broke off and rendered it useless.

Raam

scottreynolds wrote: »

Have you ever used it.... basically when if, early next week ,I ride around to yours you could tell me if there's a problem compared to your wheels. It could be my mind playing tricks.

I'll see how tomorrow shapes up but if I can't get to a shop tomorrow I'm ping ya.

P.S. I'll give you plenty of notice to remove your blue socks.

I've never used it. But the shop has had to tighten the cones a couple of times.

doozerie

If it is the same plastic tool that comes with the hubs on the Mavic Cosmic Elites (like a open semi-circular spanner on one end with little plastic tabs sticking out from face which fit into holes on the nut/disk on the hub ; other end is a tyre lever), then chances are you put too much pressure on it if it snapped. I suspect it is deliberately made of plastic so that it breaks before you do serious and permanent damage to the hub. That much pressure means the lock-nut is already fully tight, and perhaps too tight now.

Sealed bearing hubs are different from conventional hubs in that they don't have cones as such - instead the (outer ring of) the sealed bearing is jammed into the hub and the axle is jammed into the (inner ring of) the sealed bearing. The scope for play is very limited with bearings in good condition. The adjustable "locknut" on the outside of the hub just bears against the outer face of the hub and should typically not require much adjustment.

I've just done a quick web search and it seems that the Ksyrium Elites are reported as stiff in some reviews (e.g. on BieRadar) although on some forums a few people have said they've found them to flex quite a bit. If the bearings are in good condition and the wheels are not very old/used, then maybe you've got a dud wheel - in that case bringing it back to where you bought it, if you can, might be worth a try.

scottreynolds

scottreynolds wrote: »

Me bottom bracket creaks have gone

The creak has gone and it may have been the headset but the seat also has a split in it so it may have been the seat creaking. I was ascending lugalla and mistimed getting out of the saddle when I heard an almighty crack.... though the frame was gone but in the end couldn't find anything. now the seat is cracked through.... I'm having a bad run at the moment.... but I guess starting at 105kg wasn't nice for the bike. Hopefully now at 85kg it will be more forgiving.

DirkVoodoo

I thought you looked pretty trim when I was picking up my stuff, I figured it was just that lycra doesn't look good on people

20kg is some amount of weight to have lost, nice job!

blorg

Jeez well done Scott, that is some shrinkage. -20kg = not carrying three (light) bikes on your back.

mloc123

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I thought you looked pretty trim when I was picking up my stuff, I figured it was just that lycra doesn't look good on people

20kg is some amount of weight to have lost, nice job!

:eek: Likewise, would never have put you at 85kg.

ROK ON

I always thought your were about 140kg, and I was in awe of your training program as a result. Given that you are actually a skinny bas***d, I am actually less envious.:D

Well done. I know how difficult it is. Seriously though, well done. You are an inspiration to big boned cyclists everywhere.

Just some (obvious) advice. Given the effort that you have put in thus far and allied to recent mechanical problems - I really think that you should bring the bike somewhere reputable and get a full service before the TOI.
It would be a real kick in the nuts to have a bike problem while on the tour.

scottreynolds

ROK ON wrote: »

I really think that you should bring the bike somewhere reputable and get a full service before the TOI.

Already booked in for a service but good advice. I've done all my long training now so I'm happy. I do miss Cakes and Pies though.

NickDrake

What tool do I need to tighten my bottom bracket? I have an old Trek 1000 . Bearings may be gone but going to try and tighten it to get me through a few more miles.

P.S where can I get the tool? Halfords?

lescol

Strange place to post your question

However, an old Trek 1000 is likely to be fitted with a cartridge BB which you can't tighten to remove play.

Should look like this:-

You will need something like this to remove it:-

You should be able to pick one up in Halfords.

If the BB doesn't look familiar then let us know the components on your bike.

NickDrake

thanks for the reply. A mechanic tighten it up before as the wheel was wobbly/loose.

DirkVoodoo

I think you should bring your bike to your local shop and let them look at it.

lescol

I have the feeling that you may be talking about tightening the cones on the wheel.

NickDrake

Ya think I might drop it in the the local shop. Ya might be tightning the cones alright. How can I do that?

DirkVoodoo

Cone spanner. Tight enough to remove play in the axle but loose enough so that it can spin freely.

This is assuming you have cup and cone bearings in your hub, if it's cartridge then just pop 'em out and buy some new ones if worn, you can get bearing adjustment tools, I got one with a set of mavics.

NickDrake

Got it sorted in my local shop , thanks for the help. Went back home to get it sorted. Got turned away from shops where I work. Said they it would be 2 weeks. For something that only takes 5 mins, I was a bit surprised. Not very nice in there.

Things must be going very well for the shops.