One damn hill after another

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

When you were doing long climbs on all-day rides in France or Spain, were you able to sustain conversation?

Not if I was pushing myself, I wouldn't have been able to sustain conversation at any point going up Alpe d'Huez for example, neither would I have been conversing during the last km or so of any of the others!

My point is (of course depending on fitness) that you can sustain cycling effort over an extended climb well beyond the "able to carry out a conversation." Technically I would imagine what you are looking at here for the max is your Functional Threshold Power, e.g. what you can sustain for 1hr or nearabouts in a time trial. I am not well versed in this stuff so feel free to correct me now. Whatever it is it is well above "able to carry out a conversation." This is the max, but you won't be talking for well under this amount either.

The hills in Wicklow in any case are not that extended so you can go up them even harder if you wish. Even more so the ones on the W100 compared to the 200. You wouldn't be doing this all day, just up the climbs. Recover on the descents.

Of course if you can carry out a conversation you are certainly safe, but I would expect most people irrespective of level go faster than conversational pace up hills. I would be seriously impressed if souter can maintain a conversation while cycling a singlespeed up the hill out of Enniskerry, Djouce, etc. (all short, but sharp climbs!)

souter

blorg wrote: »

I would be seriously impressed if souter can maintain a conversation while cycling a singlespeed up the hill out of Enniskerry, Djouce, etc. (all short, but sharp climbs!)

Lol! The only conversation I have is internal - "Why?why?why?" as my heart beat get's louder and louder in my ears and peripheral vision starts to fade.

I wish I could stand on the pedals for longer - I pretty much only do this when I'm about to stall, so I'll be working on this. btw, it's pretty embarassing running out of steam, grinding to a halt then finding you don't have the strength to unclip.

Lumen

souter wrote: »

I wish I could stand on the pedals for longer - I pretty much only do this when I'm about to stall, so I'll be working on this. btw, it's pretty embarassing running out of steam, grinding to a halt then finding you don't have the strength to unclip.

Climbing out of the saddle is apparently less efficient (i.e. more effort expended for less climbing power) but it uses different muscles so you get a bit of a break but you will just get more out of breath.

You should aim to stay seated for most of the climb.

When your muscles burn, that's lactic acid build up, which indicates that you have crossed your aerobic threshold. You can only do this so much before you have nothing left.

Go slower, save your aerobic effort for cresting the hill.

bcmf

As someone who has a deep resentment of anything more then 2% I approach them like this.
Get your gear spinnnng at the bottom.Hopefully the incline is nice enough that you can settle into a rythymn (?).Only stand up when absolutley neccessary.Do your own pace regardless of the speed.When its starts to grind.i pick a spot about 7feet ahead of me and concentrate on getting to that then pick another spot.Try not to look up at the hill ahead of you.It just may take the heart out of you.I find most hills are climable this way.I maybe an hour behind everyone else.....but hey..
I can even manage to get up the short 20% in my area doing it this way.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Not if I was pushing myself, I wouldn't have been able to sustain conversation at any point going up Alpe d'Huez for example, neither would I have been conversing during the last km or so of any of the others!

OK, AD aside then, the only bits where you couldn't converse would be the final bit where you were deliberately pushing yourself.

Threshold power is roughly that which you can sustain for an hour - only one hour, and you must suffer throughout. It's more usually tested as 95% of the maximum 20 mins power, because of the difficuty of sustaining the pace (and recovery time needed).

"Tempo" pace is 75-90%, and is "difficult to hold continuous conversation without breathing becoming difficult". There is a limit of a couple of hours on tempo pace in training.

"Endurance" pace is 65-75% of threshold, and you're supposed to be able to hold a conversation easily without getting out of breath.

My point is that for an endurance event, you want to be in the endurance zone. If you're regularly popping up into tempo, threshold and beyond on the hills, you're not evenly distributing the effort and you will perceive your riding limits to be the number and length of climbs rather than total distance.

A good start to conquering a fear of hills is to attempt to ride them at endurance pace, i.e. easy conversation, and take it from there.

That said, my achilles is buggered and I can't go near hills right now, so I'm not exactly the best advocate for taking it easy.

blorg

I think ye have all missed the point that he is doing this on a singlespeed. He is going to have to murder himself on the climbs, he won't have any choice in the matter

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

I think ye have all missed the point that he is doing this on a singlespeed. He is going to have to murder himself on the climbs, he won't have any choice in the matter

Ah, I saw mention of that but assumed it was a joke. :pac:

bcmf

blorg wrote: »

I think ye have all missed the point that he is doing this on a singlespeed. He is going to have to murder himself on the climbs, he won't have any choice in the matter

Jaysus.

Greyspoke

When you have only a single gear, which of necessity has to be at least a middling sized gear, then a lot of climbing will have to be done out of the saddle unless you have really good leg power. Personally, I much prefer climbing out of the saddle in higher gears as I feel relatively stronger at it but it does require a bit more upper body strength as it feels like you're doing almost as much pulling with your arms as pushing with your legs.
I would suggest that if you're going to ride a highish gear uphill then maybe go to the gym or buy some dumbells and do lots of pulling exercises.

souter

Not too many votes of confidence in my plan. I'll pay more attention to training and see how I feel.
Greyspoke, what would you consider a middling gear? I'm rocking using 72", 84" on my commute - I've a spare 47t and a cunning plan to swap it in place of the 48t just before the day, giving loads more gear.
I'm fairly stocky, but my legs are the weak link when getting out of the saddle. Possibly because I leave it till I'm done in before standing.

blorg

72" sounds good, I use ~73" myself for fixed cycling in Wicklow. With a singlespeed you could go lower as you won't have the problem of crazy RPMs on the descents.

I would not go any higher than that 72", whatever you do. Get out and try Djouce on it, it is probably the worst the W100 has to offer.

Greyspoke

souter wrote: »

Not too many votes of confidence in my plan. I'll pay more attention to training and see how I feel.
Greyspoke, what would you consider a middling gear? I'm rocking using 72", 84" on my commute - I've a spare 47t and a cunning plan to swap it in place of the 48t just before the day, giving loads more gear.
I'm fairly stocky, but my legs are the weak link when getting out of the saddle. Possibly because I leave it till I'm done in before standing.

As blorg suggests, 70-75" is what I'd call a middling gear, the kind of size that comes as standard on the likes of Bowerys and Langsters.
If you're pushing 84" on your commute, assuming it's more than just a couple of kms, then your legs must be reasonably strong and if your heart/lungs are in reasonable shape then I'm sure you'd manage the W100 in a gear in the low 70s without too much trouble. The steepest bit on that route is the haul out of Enniskerry up past the church so if you can get up that okay you'll be fine. Go for it!

souter

2 votes for low 70s, I'll stick with that.
10 kms commute each way but pretty flat. I'm varying it a bit and finding some slight inclines to attack out of the saddle. I think my legs are pretty strong - heart and lungs are more the problem.
Time to put up and shut up methink.

Greyspoke

souter wrote: »

I'm fairly stocky, but my legs are the weak link when getting out of the saddle. Possibly because I leave it till I'm done in before standing.

I meant to add that contrary to popular opinion about staying seated and spinning up hills in lower gears I'm usually out of the saddle from the start of climbs as I'm pretty hopeless/uncomfortable climbing seated. Maybe try that yourself and see how it goes rather than wait until you're close to stalling in a seated position.

blorg

With a geared bike spinning and seated is indeed a better idea but you can't climb steep inclines on a big gear seated.

@souter- did you do the hill between Enniskerry and Powerscourt already? Next try Djouce, it is much longer and the bit at the end is very steep. I did it on my 73" after coming up the 25% road from the bottom of the valley and between the two I was discovering new muscles in my lower back. There isn't really anything worse on the W100. I may head out with you some time for that if you like

souter

blorg wrote: »

With a geared bike spinning and seated is indeed a better idea but you can't climb steep inclines on a big gear seated.

@souter- did you do the hill between Enniskerry and Powerscourt already? Next try Djouce, it is much longer and the bit at the end is very steep. I did it on my 73" after coming up the 25% road from the bottom of the valley and between the two I was discovering new muscles in my lower back. There isn't really anything worse on the W100. I may head out with you some time for that if you like

Err, I was a bit lost, but I didn't do any serious hills. Came out of Stepaside I think, went up quiet roads till I eventually arrived at Johnny Foxes from the behind via Glencullen/Puck pitch and putt. Descent from there to Enniskerry was terrifying - couldn't believe people were actually acending it. Bit puzzled that even with that precipitous downhill to Enniskerry the way back home was comparatively mild via the Scalp I think.
Let me get a couple more assaults of Howth Hill under my belt and I'll be delighted to go for spin with ye.

souter

and it's just a bump to you Wicklow Weirdos, but still...Fooking hard work with 72" gear and a big tummy.
My compensation is a 4 pack of Budvar, unlimitted cashews and and old skool blues on bbc4. Sweet!!

Nietzschean

is the north face that much harder than the south? its been a while since i've done it(hate the road condition in the town so normally go out around the south side of it and just up and down the same side)

though speaking of wicklow just went up stocking lane and over to enniskerry there, **** me some difference between howth and that....

Glowing

Somebody give me some encouragement ... please!

I haven't signed up for the 100 yet, but am *considering* it. I've only done 2 38km ish spins around Enniskerry/Glencree/Johnny Foxes, and haven't died (it was close though the first time, though felt a lot better this weekend).

I've never cycled more than that, ever! If I wanted to to the 100, how much training would I need to fit in over the next month? What is the max distance I should aim for? I'm not super-fit, but am reasonably active ... and like you OP, when I checked out the Wicklow 200 sign-up site, I was really mad about that extra 6km! That could make or break me

What should I do?! I'm also not looking forward to the idea of cycling 100km alone, is it lonely? I have visions of me at the back of a huge group, saying 'wait for me' between gasps.

Edit: I'm also CRAP at decending, like a granny on the breaks all the way. I have NO confidence after falling off my bike last year when my wheels slipped out from under me, and now I have 'issues' with bends. There were some good tips up there, and I made a concsious effort today to try bank the bike a little on bends but nope, wasn't happening. Such a waste of speed!

doozerie

There are many views on the "best" climbing technique, but the truth of the matter is that usual one of "well, it depends". It depends on the gradient, it depends on the length of the climb, it depends on whether your priority is to get up it in a hurry or to get up it with the least amount of energy expended, it depends on what gears you have available to you, it depends on whether the roads are wet or dry, it depends on your personal riding style, etc., etc. The elusive "most efficient method" is subject to the same variables too, so what is the most efficient method for you on one hill today may not be the most efficient method for you on the same hill tomorrow.

Personally, I climb out of the saddle a lot. That works for me. I know people who can't spent much time out of the saddle without their legs tiring fast, so it doesn't work for them. I've overtaken people on climbs that have been sitting all the way while I've been out of the saddle, and I've been overtaken on climbs by people in the saddle while I've been out of the saddle - and likewise when I've chosen to stay in the saddle sometimes I get to the top first and sometimes not. If there is a golden rule, or a "right" way to climb, I think it's no more than "do what works for you on the day and in the circumstances you find yourself". Try different techniques/methods of climbing to see how they feel, and then pick and choose from them as necessary, but mainly just listen to your body.

The following might be of interest. The first is a discussion of a scientific approach to measuring whether staying in the saddle is more efficient that out of the saddle or vice versa (answer = it depends), the others offer advice on climbing technique(s):
* Technique: Up and away
* Technique: Be a better climber
* Power Climbing