Query Mary Harneys postion as minister

popey21

Does anyone know how Mary Harney can hold a ministrial seat following the dissolution of the pd party. She was elected as a PD and therefore had her position due to shareing of power with FF but she has not been duly elected as an independent td by the people and yet she holds one of the highest and most influnential positions in the country.

Heinrich

popey21 wrote: »

Does anyone know how Mary Harney can hold a ministrial seat following the dissolution of the pd party. She was elected as a PD and therefore had her position due to shareing of power with FF but she has not been duly elected as an independent td by the people and yet she holds one of the highest and most influnential positions in the country.

Being one of the most competent ministers in government does it matter if she is an independent?

popey21

Heinrich wrote: »

Being one of the most competent ministers in government does it matter if she is an independent?

It dosent matter that she is an independent but my question is ? how she hold the position when she hasn't been elected as an independent td?? she has not been voted in by the population as an independent so how does she automatically get to keep her seat?

greendom

I don't know if this is a reason but who else would want to be Health Minister ?

jmcc

Cronyism.

Regards...jmcc

sceptre

Ignoring why and dealing strictly with how, the Taoiseach can nominate any member of the Dail or Seanad to any cabinet position. The Taoiseach needs to be a member of Dail Eireann as do the Tanaiste and Minister for Finance - apart from that the Taoiseach can make any member they like a Minister.

As an aside, it's happened a small number of times that a Taoiseach has nominated people to the Seanad and then made them Ministers.

Benedict XVI

When the PDs were dissolved it was mentioned that there would probably be a re-shuffle after the Local/EU elections and Mary would be 'relieved' of her post at that stage.

CorkFenian

Heinrich wrote: »

Being one of the most competent ministers in government does it matter if she is an independent?

Would be interested to see how you reach that viewpoint??IMO its akin to a urban myth that because of her "huge interest" she should still be there...IMO shes there because no one else wants it and it suits FF.They can absolve themselves of health.In any other western EU country she would be gone long ago...

ednwireland

Heinrich wrote: »

Being one of the most competent ministers in government does it matter if she is an independent?

when did that happen, must have missed that

mind you, look at who your comparing to

popey21

sceptre wrote: »

Ignoring why and dealing strictly with how, the Taoiseach can nominate any member of the Dail or Seanad to any cabinet position. The Taoiseach needs to be a member of Dail Eireann as do the Tanaiste and Minister for Finance - apart from that the Taoiseach can make any member they like a Minister.

As an aside, it's happened a small number of times that a Taoiseach has nominated people to the Seanad and then made them Ministers.

i understand what your saying but she has not been elected by the people as an independent td therefore not a memeber of the dail due to the dissolution of her party the pds.

The_Minister

popey21 wrote: »

i understand what your saying but she has not been elected by the people as an independent td therefore not a memeber of the dail due to the dissolution of her party the pds.

So? A TD can change party, or become an Independent, without having to resign their Dail seat.
Tbh, I doubt many people voted for her as a Progressive Democrat, but instead ovted for Mary Harney.

ednwireland wrote: »

when did that happen, must have missed that

mind you, look at who your comparing to

Before going into Health, MH had one of the consistently highest approval ratings for a party leader in the Dail, averaging over 70% every poll. In terms of achievements, she has one of the best records of any minister in the (very short) history of the state.
Health is her only big failure, and tbh, I don't think that its a job that anybody could do.

EastWallGirl

I think she should be removed and not becasue of the fact that she is from a defunct party etc.

Her conflict of interest due to her husbands job and one of her friends being a builder for the PPP for the hosapitals should preclude her.

The_Minister

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I think she should be removed and not becasue of the fact that she is from a defunct party etc.

Her conflict of interest due to her husbands job and one of her friends being a builder for the PPP for the hosapitals should preclude her.

AFAIK they only got married after she became Minister for Health, so she didn't become Minister for a corrupt purpose.

As for knowing a builder - Ireland's a very small place, it would be hard to get a Minister who didn't know a builder, and impossible to get one who didn't know one after being a TD (TDs oftern interfere in planning decisions on behalf of residents, so they would generally meet builders).

hallelujajordan

The_Minister wrote: »

So? A TD can change party, or become an Independent, without having to resign their Dail seat.
Tbh, I doubt many people voted for her as a Progressive Democrat, but instead ovted for Mary Harney.

Exactly, in our political system we vote for people not for parties. . TD's and other are free to change or drop their party allegiance at any time after having been elected.

Before going into Health, MH had one of the consistently highest approval ratings for a party leader in the Dail, averaging over 70% every poll. In terms of achievements, she has one of the best records of any minister in the (very short) history of the state.
Health is her only big failure, and tbh, I don't think that its a job that anybody could do.

Hard to see how you can quote approval ratings as evidence of Harneys performance in her position as leader of the PD's. Surely the more direct feedback the electorate gave to the PD's at the last election is a more accurate reflection of the parties performance (whether or not she was officially the leader) ?

As for her failings. . Our economic policies over the last 10 years were driven by the PD arm of the coalition government. . surely it is right that she take some responsibility for the current mess. .

As for her role in health, I would sack her in the morning (although this right is entirely in the gift of Brian Cowen)

r0nanf

The_Minister wrote:

Before going into Health, MH had one of the consistently highest approval ratings for a party leader in the Dail, averaging over 70% every poll.

Before going into meltdown, Bertie had one of the consistently highest approval ratings for a party leader in the Dail. It did not make him a good Taoiseach or an upstanding member of society, it just proved he was a master of populism.

wrote:

Health is her only big failure, and tbh, I don't think that its a job that anybody could do.

Agreed, but it is the scale of the failure. It is obscene.

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

TD's and other are free to change or drop their party allegiance at any time after having been elected.

What a strange situation! What if Fine Gael or Labour were voted in next time, and this privilege was (hypothetically) taken to an extreme, with TDs changing their allegiance to Fianna Fail? We could end up back to square one !!

Can a Taoiseach change allegiance after having been elected :eek::D!!

Riskymove

the Government is just about numbers and TDs are elected individually so they can change party or indeed start a new one (PDs as an example) so yes if Labour and FG had numbers to be in Govt next time and then all decided to join FF then FF would be in Govt.:)

as I said, all about numbers!!

and yes Taoiseach can change party but would not take post with him unless Dail re-elected him

994

popey21 wrote: »

It dosent matter that she is an independent but my question is ? how she hold the position when she hasn't been elected as an independent td?? she has not been voted in by the population as an independent so how does she automatically get to keep her seat?

She was elected as a person, and can change party affiliation as much as she likes.

Darragh29

If you think the health service is in a mess now, just wait until Swine Flu arrives!!!

Dr Galen

Darragh29 wrote: »

If you think the health service is in a mess now, just wait until Swine Flu arrives!!!

ironically we are probably better placed to deal with something like that, than the current issues withing the health service. we have some very good people working in the public health section of the HSE/Dept of Health. I actually wouldn't be overly worried if and more likely when, swine flu arrives

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

What a strange situation! What if Fine Gael or Labour were voted in next time, and this privilege was (hypothetically) taken to an extreme, with TDs changing their allegiance to Fianna Fail? We could end up back to square one !!

Can a Taoiseach change allegiance after having been elected :eek::D!!

A more likely scenario is where the balance of power is held by a small number . . A shifting party allegiance from one or two people could in theory bring about an entire change in government (but in reality, is more likely to bring about a fresh GE)

Darragh29

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

ironically we are probably better placed to deal with something like that, than the current issues withing the health service. we have some very good people working in the public health section of the HSE/Dept of Health. I actually wouldn't be overly worried if and more likely when, swine flu arrives

Maybe we'll be lucky and the MRSA will kill the Swine Flu in the hospitals before it gets a chance to infect the patients! :D:D

I'm only messing, I think we will handle it well when it arrives but I'd be more worried that it will have the effect of worsening the economic problems facing the country, some people are afraid to go out of their homes as it is, there is so much doom and gloom out there. I can't see this helping.

ArmaniJeanss

The Raven. wrote: »

What a strange situation! What if Fine Gael or Labour were voted in next time, and this privilege was (hypothetically) taken to an extreme, with TDs changing their allegiance to Fianna Fail? We could end up back to square one !!

Can a Taoiseach change allegiance after having been elected :eek::D!!

In your first example I think the originally elected Taoiseach drives up to Aras An Uachtarain and asks the President to dissolve the Dail and call a General Election. The President won't refuse (major constitutional crisis would ensue if she did and I'm not sure what would happen.)

As for the Taoiseach changing sides - as I understand it the originally appointed Tanaiste automatically becomes Taoiseach and is faced with a decision to carry on if he has a working majority or else drive up to Aras an Uachtarain etc etc. I'd be less sure of this though, thankfully our democracy, for all its faults, appears too stable for this scenario to happen.

thebman

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

ironically we are probably better placed to deal with something like that, than the current issues withing the health service. we have some very good people working in the public health section of the HSE/Dept of Health. I actually wouldn't be overly worried if and more likely when, swine flu arrives

I don't see why Swine Flu would most likely arrive here. We are an island and the flights in can have screening and the departing countries should have screening if they have infections.

I know it may occur but I'd say we are in a better position than most countries to not have an outbreak in the first place.

The Raven.

Riskymove wrote: »

the Government is just about numbers and TDs are elected individually so they can change party or indeed start a new one (PDs as an example) so yes if Labour and FG had numbers to be in Govt next time and then all decided to join FF then FF would be in Govt.

and yes Taoiseach can change party but would not take post with him unless Dail re-elected him

I wasn't being realistic, but it's interesting nevertheless. In theory, it could happen, but in reality it's out of the question !!

hallelujajordan wrote: »

A more likely scenario is where the balance of power is held by a small number . . A shifting party allegiance from one or two people could in theory bring about an entire change in government (but in reality, is more likely to bring about a fresh GE)

Indeed, that is more likely, but obviously not with Fianna Fail at the next GE, unless they pull off some miracle.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In your first example I think the originally elected Taoiseach drives up to Aras An Uachtarain and asks the President to dissolve the Dail and call a General Election. The President won't refuse (major constitutional crisis would ensue if she did and I'm not sure what would happen.)

Strange kind of powers the President has! One minute they're there, and the next minute they're not !!

As for the Taoiseach changing sides - as I understand it the originally appointed Tanaiste automatically becomes Taoiseach and is faced with a decision to carry on if he has a working majority or else drive up to Aras an Uachtarain etc etc. I'd be less sure of this though, thankfully our democracy, for all its faults, appears too stable for this scenario to happen.

Thank Heavens for stability :eek:!!

Sorry for going off topic! Mary Harney is the longest ever serving female TD. Given her checkered history it's amazing that she is still there!

jmcc

hallelujajordan wrote: »

A more likely scenario is where the balance of power is held by a small number . . A shifting party allegiance from one or two people could in theory bring about an entire change in government (but in reality, is more likely to bring about a fresh GE)

And that, ironically, is what makes the Green party the most powerful party in government for the next few months.

Regards...jmcc

Bob Z

The Raven. wrote: »

What a strange situation! What if Fine Gael or Labour were voted in next time, and this privilege was (hypothetically) taken to an extreme, with TDs changing their allegiance to Fianna Fail? We could end up back to square one !!

Can a Taoiseach change allegiance after having been elected :eek::D!!

Yes in theory this could happen (i think) but then they wouldnt have the support of the party and the party would elect a new leader

Raiser

CorkFenian wrote: »

Would be interested to see how you reach that viewpoint??IMO its akin to a urban myth that because of her "huge interest" she should still be there...IMO shes there because no one else wants it and it suits FF.They can absolve themselves of health.In any other western EU country she would be gone long ago...

What he said.

She'll take the flak, do what is bid of her and retire to a small fortune whenever the heat:spin ratio reaches meltdown.

- In time we'll probably tally casualties attributable to Irish health policy on a similar scale to a Soviet offensive in WWII - but Mary will be long gone and far away challenging deckchair build-quality on Cruise ships by then.....

joseph brand

Raiser wrote: »

What he said.

She'll take the flak, do what is bid of her and retire to a small fortune whenever the heat:spin ratio reaches meltdown.

- In time we'll probably tally casualties attributable to Irish health policy on a similar scale to a Soviet offensive in WWII - but Mary will be long gone and far away challenging deckchair build-quality on Cruise ships by then.....

The Overweight Minister for Health.

oscarBravo

joseph brand wrote: »

The Overweight Minister for Health.

Very clever. Did it take you long to think that one up?

Let's keep the thread on-topic and grownup, thanks.

CKB

The obvious reason is that neither the Greens nor FF would dream of touching the poison chalice that is Angola... er... Dept of Health.
Had the dubious pleasure of meeting her once at a protest on withdrawal of cancer care services. Either she can't count (stats on patients treated) or the mandarins are seriously misleading her. Hospital managers had one set of figures, she had something totally different and designed to close cancer services. Go figure Mary!