The Recession Effect .. companies go to DIY Web Design!

aidanodr

Hi Guys,

Hard to put a proper title on what this is about ... thats the closest I can get to it.

Last few days I have had TWO clients calling me to a meeting wondering how much it would cost in outlay for them to buy up proper web design software ( eg Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Menu Apps etc ) and then FOR ME TO train the staff up in how to use the lot. This to "cut costs" so they DO NOT have to get me to make changes to their site in the future. Basically turn themselves and staff into an own website design company.

So you have heard the phrase "Turkeys voting for Christmas"? I will add another - "Penny Wise, Pound Stupid". Its like a company getting all their staff to go on a Mechanics course so they can fix their own cars and save a buck that way!

The amount of changes per annum is not huge plus they want to edit menus, create banner adverts, new pages, flash animation. This all coming - as I found out from - "Shur It cannot be much more difficult than using MS Word".

Anyone else with similar storys?

Cheers - Aidan

PS - I realise CMS Systems and all that. But hey, if the above becomes the norm, whtas the point in having a Web Business?

elyod

There seems to be an elitist attidude to web design / development on this forum.

You all get horribly offended and defensive if anyone but a "professional" attempts to maintain or create thier own website.

Talk about blowing yer own trumpet.

So what if they want to do it inhouse. If the site ends up looking like ****e just have a good laugh at them, but there is a possibility they could manage to create something very decent for little extra cost to them compared with hiring an over charging "professional".

p

aidanodr wrote: »

PS - I realise CMS Systems and all that. But hey, if the above becomes the norm, whtas the point in having a Web Business?

Perfectly normal attitude to have. People want to save money and that's reasonable. If you're still selling static websites then I think you're a dying breed. You either need to focus on design and team up with a developer or learn a CMS like ExpressionEngine and try get higher paid, higher quality jobs.

There's no point competing with Eddie Rockets.

aidanodr

elyod wrote: »

There seems to be an elitist attidude to web design / development on this forum.

You all get horribly offended and defensive if anyone but a "professional" attempts to maintain or create thier own website.

Talk about blowing yer own trumpet.

So what if they want to do it inhouse. If the site ends up looking like ****e just have a good laugh at them, but there is a possibility they could manage to create something very decent for little extra cost to them compared with hiring an over charging "professional".

Thank you Elyod for being so soon with a response like this - It helps to get something out of the way. First of all my intention was NOT to be elitist, sorry if it sounded this way.

I have my own small Internet Business, just like you ( sorry for assuming ), I work for a living - which in my case happens to be Web Design and other Internet related things. Because I am a one man operation my charges are not outlandish. In effect what you are saying above - and again sorry if I misinterpret what you have said - is TOUGH. Thats fine too, but then this MATTERS to me because this IS my Business, not a hobby. So, from what you said - maybe I should just train up all my clients in the work I DO - once off - and then join the dole queue?

Im not sure what you are involved in but can you train me up in what you do so I do not need you anymore? Is this to be the way of it,

Again thanks for this reply - I was waiting for it and glad it appeared so soon so it could be dealt with and debated,

Aidan

aidanodr

p wrote: »

... learn a CMS like ExpressionEngine and try get higher paid, higher quality jobs.

There's no point competing with Eddie Rockets.

Hiya,

YIP - I will concur with that - No I dont just focus on Static Sites. I also involve CMS Systems - Joomla etc. Along with Wordpress Blog type sites. Customizing templates and all that!

I KNEW - the title on this thread was wrongly worded after I posted it. As I said - not meant to sound elitist. Apologies to all!

EDIT - Aha, I changed the TITLE. Didnt think you could, alot of Forums do not allow you to once created!

Aidan

hobochris

I hope if you did give a tender that you priced them out of the idea.

fixing dodgy amateur work is worse then building from scratch When they do make a balls of it, and they probably will!

not only that but you'll probably be held accountable as the staff will blame it on poor training, so will probably be expected to fix it as a free bee..

Darragh29

aidanodr wrote: »

So you have heard the phrase "Turkeys voting for Christmas"? I will add another - "Penny Wise, Pound Stupid". Its like a company getting all their staff to go on a Mechanics course so they can fix their own cars and save a buck that way!

You won't believe this!

I'm involved with a business that sells garage equipment and we've noticed a huge increase in the number of small businesses buying stuff like car lifts, compressed air equipment, tyre changers, etc.

What is happening now is businesses that might have a few cars/cans on the road, instead of sending them out to an independent garage or a dealership service department for service & maintenance work, as has been the case up until now, now they can't afford to so they're investing in the equipment and throwing a mechanic a few quid on a Saturday to come in and do a few oil changes and take care of any issues. I'm talking to these businesses every week and some of them are training warehouse staff to do basic vehicle maintenance & servicing work. I'm hearing it on the phone every week that people are just no longer in a position to keep paying hundreds of Euro a week on vehicle maintenance to keep a fleet of cars or vans on the road. If they have a vehicle broken down, they'll pay a guy a few quid to come into the business now and do it as a nixer...

It's kind of scary I think when you hear these type of stories, obviously cash strapped businesses are looking at their costs in the context of no credit being available to small businesses and are coming up with novel ways of cutting down on expenditure.

NickNolte

If a company wants to take on the headache of learning about Web design, development, IA, usability, accessibility, etc. then they'll learn very fast that they need professionals to do the job for them.

If you're a company that only has the capacity and skill set to knock out static websites then you're probably right to be worried.

aidanodr

NickNolte wrote: »

If you're a company that only has the capacity and skill set to knock out static websites then you're probably right to be worried.

Maybe this is a general point NickNolte - but as I said already - No I dont just focus on Static Sites, I reckon most Web Design companys have some legacy sites on their books? I also involve CMS Systems - Joomla etc. Along with Wordpress Blog type sites. Customizing templates and all that!

On a further point one wonders where it will go? I reckon what is under serious trouble is B2B business. Other businesses are so strapped for cash - owing themselves and owed by others - that doing Business with businesses is going to get more and more difficult?

However I have noticed another trend recently - Businesses I notice doing well are those who are dealing with the end user directly as opposed to B2B. Landscape gardening, small mechanic, building extentions - various services directly to householders. People who have reasonably paid and reasonably secure jobs will still pay if you are reasonable?

I hope you get my point in all the above - in a nutshell - B2B, until credit lines are some way sorted, is going to get less and less profitable!

Aidan

Axwell

Just because someone goes off and buys dreamweaver doesnt mean they are going to churn out their own static sites overnight. Even if they use the WYSIWYG to put it together there is no gaurentee it will look any way decent and by using the WYSIWYG you are more than likely going back to tables etc. So really they are doing it in house but sacrificing on quality which in the long run will probably come back to haunt them down the line.

p

Aidan - I don't think you were sounding elitist at all, just someone who's dealing with worried clients.

If you're a one man operation then maybe you're in danger of being too much of a generalist. I'm a little bit out of touch since moving away, but all my contacts seem to have found that the web is pretty healthy at the moment, though perhaps that depends on what types of businesses you're targetting. I don't really think you have to worry long term, but I do think it's important to thing about your positioning in the market and trying to aim for larger projects that require more skills. Templates, better WYSIWYG editors, and lower technical barriers are going to make it easier to get online with a nice site in the next few years, and I don't think that's a good think. If companies can put stuff online for less work & money that's great. My feeling is that we've got to focus on what a bespoke design & development has to offer, and raise the bar. There will always be work, digital design is only a growing field.

Jonny Blaze

As a budding web designer myself this is worrying news. But I suppose the trick with any business is to meet the changes occuring in the market as effectively as you can.

The cream always rises to the top afterall!

I mean if it is the case that companies are going to be adopting a DIY approach to web design, then i can only see the pre made template business picking up as companies try at least to take some of the effort out of the process.

And i beleive there will always be that element of "cash rich, time poor" clients who will still be prepared to fork out the cash for your services.

Good luck anyway!!

ravydavygravy

While I think the company the OP was talking about are probably going to end up spending more than they bargained for, I can understand why companies would see in-house development as a money-saving tactic.

I was having a conversation with a project manager recently,and she mentioned that they had been quoted €600+ for a simple one page website, to act as a site where people could register their email for updates on the upcoming project. I nearly choked on my lunch - I'm no professional web designer, but it took me less than 30 mins to code this up (we already had graphics from existing websites, and marketing - these weren't even part of the quote).

I think as long as there are companies profiteering like this, they add to a general perception that professional web designers are expensive commodities. Not a good rep to have in these times...

Jonny Blaze

ravydavygravy wrote: »

I think as long as there are companies profiteering like this, they add to a general perception that professional web designers are expensive commodities. Not a good rep to have in these times...

Exactly, the key is to be the company providing the best quality product/ service at the most competitive price.

The economics of the situation at the moment mean that people would sooner have a go at in house dev. as they see it be providing a more cost effective solution to their needs.

gnxx

This is a really common problem and it has a very simple sales solution:

"Mr. Client -- I will be happy to teach your staff about web development

I will warn you however, that it took me XX years to reach my level of expertise. I have spent XXXXXXX on training programmes so that I can deliver you the best service available.

Also be aware that your staff will be unproductive trying to deal with their own jobs and learn the fine detail of the Internet. However, if you believe that they have time on their hands this maybe worthwhile.

My other clients are giving me more work at the moment, because they have decided to focus on their core business rather than meddle in areas they don't understand.

Also be aware of the costs related to potential problems such as your staff uploading viruses or breaking the Internet ....


Customise to suit your own circumstances ...

aidanodr

Of course also feeding into this is something I would have heard in the past but took no notice AND was mentioned also recently.

"Shur, Web Design is easy - Its like using Word, anyone could do that"

Here I refer to Web Design as including design, layout, graphics, coding .. the lot. All this of course, is not seen by company staff / owners.

I see the "Powerpoint" mentality slipping in here. A perception is abroad that your standard web design expertise is no more than trumped up Word usage. Maybe some would say it is? WYSIWYG apps - a good example.

If this is indeed the perception, then Web Design in totallity is / will be devalued in cost?

ELITIST ALERT ON - Just as their are zillions of lousy ( my opinion ) Powerpoint presentations, once this tool became available to the Sales Teams of the world. Now also will we see more and more lousy websites littering the WWW than good sites, percipitated by the financial demands of this Recession? In turn lowering the bar as to what is acceptable design? ELITIST ALERT OFF

Aidan

starbelgrade

Is it really possible to "break the internet"?

And yes, my PC is plugged in.

starbelgrade

aidanodr wrote: »

Of course also feeding into this is something I would have heard in the past but took no notice AND was mentioned also recently.

"Shur, Web Design is easy - Its like using Word, anyone could do that"

Here I refer to Web Design as including design, layout, graphics, coding .. the lot. All this of course, is not seen by company staff / owners.

I see the "Powerpoint" mentality slipping in here. A perception is abroad that your standard web design expertise is no more than trumped up Word usage. Maybe some would say it is? WYSIWYG apps - a good example.

If this is indeed the perception, then Web Design in totallity is / will be devalued in cost?

Aidan

Every profession is being devalued in cost. You wouldn't ask a carpenter to build a website, same as you wouldn't ask a web designer to build you a staircase. But today, you'll find a carpenter to build the staircase for half the price you would have this time 12 months ago.

People either don't have the money, or are not willing to pay the same costs for professional services.

aidanodr

I understand devaluation in costs because of economic circumstance and of course competitiveness and good value for money is always important.

However I mention here the average company office perception of Web Design, recession or not - "Its basically as easy as Word but for the Web".

This of course feeds into why a company would consider doing a website themselves inhouse, shur its easy, let Josephine or Mark in sales knock up stuff fast in MS Word / Powerpoint fashion and stick it on the Web. Few weeks to develop a site? HAA, 20 minutes - job done! Then from this, comes the question why would I be paying anything at all for a site? Along with the Warehouse guys fixing the Van fleet, the office / sales staff can build sites and apps - loads of money saved. Thats the type of devaluation I am talking of also - devaluation of Web Design itself as a field. But no doubt their are others here who say about time, thats the way it should be!

Aidan

aidanodr

Relevant? When will MS add "Microsoft expression web LITE" to the MS Office Suite?

http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/overview.aspx?key=web

"Create your website with ease directly from your Word / Publisher / Powerpoint Presentation, add Excel and Access data output to enhance"

Ah Yes
Aidan

gnxx

starbelgrade wrote: »

Is it really possible to "break the internet"?

And yes, my PC is plugged in.

Yes. Yes it is.

You should remember that your clients should be paying you for your hidden expertise as well as your work.

I've found that technical / web / IT companies have the great ability to undervalue their specialist skills.

Mary in accounts may have a good eye for design, she might be good at drafting a web page. However, how will she cope when customers call and tell her that the page is blank in Opera.

Bob the saleman might understand the basics of DNS settings, but what happens when he creates a web forward to a hardcore porn sites.

These are all small things for somebody with expertise to fix. They are nightmares for non-experienced people to fix.

This is why a client should pay you -- and not depend on in-house expertise, because sooner or later it will fall flat.

Think about pilots. The reason why pilots spend so much time training is not to do the basic job of flying from A to B. It is to cope with any number of potential emergencies.

The same applies in the IT world. Sooner or later your customer is likely to have an emergency.

If the customer insists on dumping you make sure that you let them know about your "per-incident call charges" -- I would charge at least €100 per call.

starbelgrade

aidanodr wrote: »

I understand devaluation in costs because of economic circumstance and of course competitiveness and good value for money is always important.

However I mention here the average company office perception of Web Design, recession or not - "Its basically as easy as Word but for the Web".

This of course feeds into why a company would consider the possibility of doing it themselves, shur its easy, let Josephine or Mark in sales knock up stuff fast in MS Word / Powerpoint fashion and stick it on the Web. Few weeks to develop a site? HAA, 20 minutes - job done! Then from this, comes the question why would I be paying anything at all for a site? Along with the Warehouse guys fixing the Van fleet, the office / sales staff can build sites and apps - loads of money saved. Thats the type of devaluation I am talking of also - devaluation of Web Design itself as a field. But no doubt their are others here who say about time, thats the way it should be!

Aidan

My opinion is, is that maybe web design was in fact over-valued.

starbelgrade

gnxx wrote: »

" -- I would charge at least €100 per call.

Only one fifth of the price of a new PC?

That's cheap.

I'll check back in 6 months to see how that's working out for you!

gnxx

starbelgrade wrote: »

Only one fifth of the price of a new PC?

That's cheap.

I'll check back in 6 months to see how that's working out for you!

Give me a call

starbelgrade

gnxx wrote: »

Give me a call

It's OK - I'll plug it back in myself!

aidanodr

Well I would gladly charge €5.50 for a Web Site IF:
( Outside of actual Design/Devel, SEO blah blah! )

I could stay in my office
I did NOT have to drive to the clients premises numourous times for meetings during development
I did NOT have to liaise with the clients Printing firm for logos and graphics
I did NOT have to liaise with the clients various suppliers for PDF/Word Brochures / Permissions
I did NOT have to organise the clients Domain Name and Host Space
I did NOT have to provide various initial mockups for site design
I did NOT have to potentially change design half way through requested by client
I did NOT have to deal with ALL what GNXX said above

This is just a start - its getting late - I will add more tomorrow / later today. Im sure others will chime in also

Aidan

Jonniboy

starbelgrade wrote: »

My opinion is, is that maybe web design was in fact over-valued.

I dont know about over valued.

I mean i see the op's point about site building tools rise to prominence contributing to an overall fall in realistic comprehension of what is going on behind the scenes in those applications and the mechanics on which the code is written.

I suppose as well there are going to be many, if not most instances, where the business involved would require a greater degree of functionality or control over the appearance than can be acheived with one of these web building tools.

Over priced in some cases maybe but certainly not over valued.

A web page can be one of the most important and cost effective ways to reach a greater target market than would otherwise be possible.

That was my understanding of part of the reason the internet became such a success!!

starbelgrade

aidanodr wrote: »

Well I would gladly charge €5.50 for a Web Site IF:
( Outside of actual Design/Devel, SEO blah blah! )

I could stay in my office
I did NOT have to drive to the clients premises numourous times for meetings during development
I did NOT have to liaise with the clients Printing firm for logos and graphics
I did NOT have to liaise with the clients various suppliers for PDF/Word Brochures / Permissions
I did NOT have to organise the clients Domain Name and Host Space
I did NOT have to provide various initial mockups for site design
I did NOT have to potentially change design half way through requested by client
I did NOT have to deal with ALL what GNXX said above

This is just a start - its getting late - I will add more tomorrow / later today. Im sure others will chime in also

Aidan

Stay in your office

Don't drive to the clients premises numourous times for meetings during development.

Don't liaise with the clients Printing firm for logos and graphics. Do it yourself.

Don't liaise with the clients various suppliers for PDF/Word Brochures / Permissions

Don't organise the clients Domain Name and Host Space. A monkey could do that. Even I could do that, and I'm not even a monkey.

Don't provide various initial mockups for site design. Give them one well designed site. They will be most pleased.

I did NOT have to potentially change design half way through requested by client. (See above paragraph)

Don't deal with ALL what GNXX said above. I didn't even read it. See? It's that easy.

And if yr charging €5.50 - you'll soon be raking it in.

edanto

Ah now you're just being silly.

Aidan, the points in gnxx's posts are probably the best, but you can also look at it from the company's perspective. Maybe they are trying to find ways for their staff to do just simple updates (do you have them on a CMS) instead of having to pay you for it.

If you provided a training package to them, you can be sure that you'd have to provide it at last annually because of turnover and it would be quite a useful product (basic CMS usage training) for you to provide to other clients. They save money, and you make money churning out the same training.

p

aidanodr wrote: »

In turn lowering the bar as to what is acceptable design?

Does the existence of McDonalds mean you go to restaurants less, or does it just create a different market, between quick & easy food and a nice high quality restaurant? Design is no different, and ultimately, whatever price someone is paying you for your services, they should be making back in increased sales, better conversion rates etc...

There will always be the bottom end of the market in any field, it's no harm, in fact it can even help the market by defining things more clearly.

EKRIUQ

People are getting too a bit technical here, it’s only a matter of time when , most 15 year olds will be able to install Joomla, Wordpress or Simple CMS. They’ll be able to edit a few pictures and make a few changes to CSS. Stuff Web designers were charging thousands for a couple of years ago can be achieved cheaply and quickly now.

Its just the way the technology evolves, giving someone Dreamweaver and asking them to build a website is about 7 years in the past all dreamweaver should be used for is as an editor as the WYSIWYG only leads to problems. Web developers/designers should be looking at developing applications, learning scripting and programming languages as this will make it a more specialised field and seperate then from other companies

Maybe people shouldn’t be able to call them self’s “Web Designers” unless they have an a proper qualification