The Recession Effect .. companies go to DIY Web Design!

Pixelcraft

thats like saying there is no industry in the 'design' aspects of the web. There is, and people (if that way inclined) should equally learn to specialise in user experience as much as any programming language.

NickNolte

If all you're looking to do is compete on cost, you'll ultimately fail as in the Web industry. Unless you're knocking out crap like a lot of the cowboys out there; at a rate of knots for virtually nothing. If your competitors can't compete with you on quality and service, there's no need to compete with them on cost.

The big problem that a lot of Web businesses are going to have is that they think they can compete on cost without realising that the quality of their work is so s**t.

Snookered

This thread sounds exactly like what I'm going through at the moment,

The company I work for does not have a website, and recently I have been asked to look into it,
Now after playing around with Expression Web and other various Web Design Tools....and looking up hours of online tutorials/Hints/Tips..etc.
I have managed to put a few half-decent pages together
(not too bad either considering I have to say considering I had no experience in Web Design - WYSIWYG does make it that bit easier)

I suppose its the same story that my company wants to save $$€€ by designing and maintaining this ourselves,

But there is a small difference in that the Main boss is putting up the dosh for the software and training required to get this website running properly and on the back of that another MD decided just today that if the site looks good and all works out well, we will start to offer Web Design as a service.
So, turning the original start-up costs around to create a bit of business(Good Idea, but from my point of view its going to take me a while to get fully trained up on all this )

NickNolte

Snookered wrote: »

on the back of that another MD decided just today that if the site looks good and all works out well, we will start to offer Web Design as a service.

Then your boss will be in the same boat as so many other 'Web agencies' offering an incredibly poor service to clueless clients and littering the Web with yet even more crap.

I'm not having a go at your ability to do the job but I'm assuming you have another, primary job that you should be concentrating on/that you're not a professional Web designer or developer (two distinct disciplines I might add). Whether your MD is happy with the site that you put together for him or not is one thing... offering professional Web design and development services is another thing entirely.

At the end of the day, it's a free market. Just be warned that accusations of 'cowboy' will be flung at your company unless, by some coincidence, they happen to produce reasonably decent quality work (reasonably decent being from the POV of seasoned professionals, not your own interpretation!)

Snookered

Good Reply Nick,
And i'd agree with you on most part,

NickNolte wrote: »

Then your boss will be in the same boat as so many other 'Web agencies' offering an incredibly poor service to clueless clients and littering the Web with yet even more crap.

Well I can't answer this yet - it all depends on the outcome of our site I suppose, if Its crap, i'll be the first to put my hands up to it if it is crap, But hence the reason he's trying to make an investment in the right software and proper training. we'll have to wait and see

NickNolte wrote: »

I'm not having a go at your ability to do the job but I'm assuming you have another, primary job that you should be concentrating on/that you're not a professional Web designer or developer (two distinct disciplines I might add). .

Well see thats part the reason I'm been asked to do this, because my primary job is gone so quiet been twiddling my thumbs this past month, and the company I work for we are a small I.T company, and I work along side a .net and asp developer so I don't think i'll be that stuck-(Hopefully)

NickNolte wrote: »

At the end of the day, it's a free market. Just be warned that accusations of 'cowboy' will be flung at your company unless, by some coincidence, they happen to produce reasonably decent quality work (reasonably decent being from the POV of seasoned professionals, not your own interpretation!)

I'd agree there, becuase they way things are all business are looking for any opportunities available and our boss see's this as one, an area where we have not ventured yet. As I briefly mentioned above I'll be the first to put my hand up if its rubbish, but I'll make sure its not , I have a couple mates that are Web Desingers full time, so I can get them to double over it and throw hints/tips at it.
Of course any hints/tips/advice is always welcome from you guys
Cheers

EKRIUQ

Having a crap website doesn't do a company any favours, in the long term it turns people off but then again the percentage of people that know what's the difference between a good website and a bad website is relatively small. And the majority don’t care what flashy things are on it along as they can get the information they want.

Zascar

Personally I think unless it is a very important and highly viable project, you'd be mad to pay a web design company top money to design a site these days. Anyone of a technical aptitude can get a hold of Wordpress / MovableType / Joomla in a relatively short time. All they have to do is get a decent (possibly premium or custom) theme - and they can knock together a decent basic cms/blog with decent SEO etc for very little money and a moderate amount of time and effort.

Or, save yourself the effort, go to www.elance.com and get some of the very talented companies to do all of it for incredibly cheap rates.

I started designing websites 10 years ago coding HTML and then moving into Dreamweaver etc - but even back then I realised competition would just continue to increase and younger and more talented people were moving into the market doing better work for cheaper - its why I chose a totally different career path and kept it just as a hobby.

Moonstar

The web design market in Ireland was overpriced, just like everything else it's falling back to a more realistic level.

Pricing schemes such as per-page charging (e.g. €100 per additional page) are just not sustainable with the rise of Wordpress etc.

Pixelcraft

i'm not sure any professional charges like that tbh.

Moonstar

Depends on your definition of professional I suppose, still -

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=web+design+%22additional+page%22+-melgab.com&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

Pixelcraft

well, why would someone charge per page when the bulk of the work is done before a single is created? Interestingly enough, most of the sites that search throws up are exactly the type I would think charge by the page

NickNolte

Zascar wrote: »

Personally I think unless it is a very important and highly viable project, you'd be mad to pay a web design company top money to design a site these days. Anyone of a technical aptitude can get a hold of Wordpress / MovableType / Joomla in a relatively short time. All they have to do is get a decent (possibly premium or custom) theme - and they can knock together a decent basic cms/blog with decent SEO etc for very little money and a moderate amount of time and effort.

Or, save yourself the effort, go to www.elance.com and get some of the very talented companies to do all of it for incredibly cheap rates.

I started designing websites 10 years ago coding HTML and then moving into Dreamweaver etc - but even back then I realised competition would just continue to increase and younger and more talented people were moving into the market doing better work for cheaper - its why I chose a totally different career path and kept it just as a hobby.

If you chose a different career path because you were threatened by WordPress and elance.com then you definitely made the right decision.

There's a lot of nonsense of this forum about how much 'a website' should cost and it just goes to show how incredibly clueless most people are. A Web project could range anywhere between a WordPress installation and an enterprise level, high-traffic eCommerce store or multi B2B application. It could be a brochure site or a large RIA for an ephemeral marketing campaign. It could be a massive static site or a small RIA for a long term marketing campaign.

The fact that most designers on here seem to charge (or assume to charge) a flat rate for 'a website' is fairly indicative of the amateur, pathetic nature of the Web and digital media industry in this country. It's why a lot of really talented programmers and creatives stay the hell away from commerical Web design/development. Because it's full of talentless idiots who have completely devalued it and its potential benefits for business. For shame.

Moonstar

I think it's a pity that so much of the online industry in Ireland is inward looking - focused on Irish customers - whether that's other businesses or the public.

This feels like a missed opportunity, considering the web is the ideal platform to offer services on the global market.

I see a lot of posters on boards trying to develop niche sites for the Irish public. While this can be useful, the market is really very small.

We have a big advantage in this country in terms of familiarity with large English speaking markets such as the UK and US, it would be a shame not to use it.

NickNolte

Moonstar wrote: »

I think it's a pity that so much of the online industry in Ireland is inward looking - focused on Irish customers - whether that's other businesses or the public.

This feels like a missed opportunity, considering the web is the ideal platform to offer services on the global market.

I see a lot of posters on boards trying to develop niche sites for the Irish public. While this can be useful, the market is really very small.

We have a big advantage in this country in terms of familiarity with large English speaking markets such as the UK and US, it would be a shame not to make use of it.

I'd agree with you; it is a pity. Unfortunately there are very few digital media companies in Ireland that could compete with the better agencies in the UK and US.

Moonstar

NickNolte wrote: »

I'd agree with you; it is a pity. Unfortunately there are very few digital media companies in Ireland that could compete with the better agencies in the UK and US.

I'm sure that can be true for the design agency segment of the market.
But in terms of the online industry as a whole, there appears to be a reluctance to consider the international market.

We can compete with bigger countries in this area - sites like Hostelworld.com show that it's possible, but it seems like either the willpower, realisation or ambition is missing. Raise your aim people!

p

Zascar wrote: »

I started designing websites 10 years ago coding HTML and then moving into Dreamweaver etc - but even back then I realised competition would just continue to increase and younger and more talented people were moving into the market doing better work for cheaper - its why I chose a totally different career path and kept it just as a hobby.

So you quit web design, now work in a different field, but still feel qualified to talk about the industry? :rolleyes:

From my experience, and talking to others, the web seems to be the most buoyant of design fields at the moment. There's still work, there's still clients and money to be made.

There is a grain of truth in your post though, if you're just doing basic brochure sites then you've got to raise your game, but Wordpress skins don't compete with web design companies, they merely act as a great starting point so that when a client needs something unique and custom made, they come to us with greater ambitions, goals and more experience than before. Honestly, I don't see the downside.

Moonstar wrote: »

We can compete with bigger countries in this area - sites like Hostelworld.com show that it's possible, but it seems like either the willpower, realisation or ambition is missing. Raise your aim people!

You just said that most web companies price per page, and that's totally incorrect. Ireland is a county of 4 million people. There's lots of people who are outward looking but you just don't seem to know much about the industry. If you expect Ireland to have the next eBay or Google or things like that there's lots of other additional factors at play, but there's certainly people trying things out, and there's tons of people doing things in the B2B sector that you'll never ever hear about just because they're boring.

Moonstar

p wrote: »

You just said that most web companies price per page, and that's totally incorrect.

Hi p, I wasn't suggesting most design companies charge this way, only that a certain quantity do, which reflected poorly on the industry as a whole. This will surely change now though.

p wrote: »

If you expect Ireland to have the next eBay or Google or things like that there's lots of other additional factors at play, but there's certainly people trying things out, and there's tons of people doing things in the B2B sector that you'll never ever hear about just because they're boring.

I wouldn't suggest that there isn't, however the focus for the past few years has been on satisfying the needs of multinationals that chose to come to Ireland.

I think we have suffered in terms of developing indigenous tech companies because of this. Look at the Golden Spider awards for example.

In 2008, the vast majority of category winners were sites that cater to a predominately Irish audience.
Although it could be argued that many of the categories themselves are locally specfic, the awards themselves are aimed at the industry as a whole, described as "celebrating the successes of the Irish internet and digital media."

http://www.goldenspiders.ie/winners_2008.php

Now it's reasonable to expect that a large section of online industry will cater to a local market. However the very sparse numbers looking outside the borders, or even, at least seen to be doing so, seems a bit unhealthy.

jmcc

Moonstar wrote: »

But in terms of the online industry as a whole, there appears to be a reluctance to consider the international market.

The cost of customer acquisition tends to be far higher in the international market.

We can compete with bigger countries in this area - sites like Hostelworld.com show that it's possible, but it seems like either the willpower, realisation or ambition is missing. Raise your aim people!

Most web devs are not capable of competing with large database backed website operations simply because most of them have no knowledge of database operations outside of simple Wordpress/Joomla/etc installations. A database backed website is like a very large iceberg - the nice web dev on top hides the often huge database driven operation beneath the surface.

Regards...jmcc

p

Honestly, if you think the Golder Spiders are a metric of the web industry then I have to laugh.

Anyone serious about the web in Ireland knows the Golden Spiders are a joke!

jmcc

Moonstar wrote: »

I think we have suffered in terms of developing indigenous tech companies because of this. Look at the Golden Spider awards for example.

In 2008, the vast majority of category winners were sites that cater to a predominately Irish audience.
Although it could be argued that many of the categories themselves are locally specfic, the awards themselves are aimed at the industry as a whole, described as "celebrating the successes of the Irish internet and digital media."

The Golden Spiders 'awards' are a joke in the Irish web industry. They represent nothing more than a money making exercise for the operator of the event. It is possible for web devs to target an Irish web audience and make money.

Regards...jmcc

Moonstar

p wrote: »

Honestly, if you think the Golder Spiders are a metric of the web industry then I have to laugh.

Anyone serious about the web in Ireland knows the Golden Spiders are a joke!

That may be so, but it's still another reflection of the cottage-industry state of many parts of the sector.

jmcc wrote: »

The cost of customer acquisition tends to be far higher in the international market.

I think this needs to be qualified with a "depending on the content".

jmcc wrote: »

Most web devs are not capable of competing with large database backed website operations simply because most of them have no knowledge of database operations outside of simple Wordpress/Joomla/etc installations. A database backed website is like a very large iceberg - the nice web dev on top hides the often huge database driven operation beneath the surface.

I won't argue with that. Still, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

jmcc wrote:

It is possible for web devs to target an Irish web audience and make money.

Possible, but a good idea right now?

Dmtiling

The web is changing and so is web design.

I am currently working on an idea that will put you all out of business.

Zascar

ooh do tell

yeraulone

Dmtiling wrote: »

The web is changing and so is web design.

I am currently working on an idea that will put you all out of business.

:rolleyes:

jmcc

Moonstar wrote: »

Still, it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

For most web devs it is because it requires a completely different skill-set and expertise. A college course only provides some of the foundation for this kind of work but it takes a few years of actual experience to develop the skills and knowledge to design such a large database backed website. Web development skills are easily learned by anyone with a minimum of knowledge and an eye for graphical design. That's why the transition from secondary school student to web developer is so easy - most of the basic skills are already taught in schools. Once you move into programming and SQL the level increases. It is very easy to make a badly designed database backed website. Making good one that runs smoothly and is easily updated is far more difficult.

Possible, but a good idea right now?

Web developers are like sharks. Just as sharks have to keep moving, web developers have to keep developing. If we don't we aren't in business. That's what differentiates the professionals from the rest. To us, it is business.

Regards...jmcc

John_Mc

jmcc wrote: »

For most web devs it is because it requires a completely different skill-set and expertise. A college course only provides some of the foundation for this kind of work but it takes a few years of actual experience to develop the skills and knowledge to design such a large database backed website. Web development skills are easily learned by anyone with a minimum of knowledge and an eye for graphical design. That's why the transition from secondary school student to web developer is so easy - most of the basic skills are already taught in schools. Once you move into programming and SQL the level increases. It is very easy to make a badly designed database backed website. Making good one that runs smoothly and is easily updated is far more difficult.

Web developers are like sharks. Just as sharks have to keep moving, web developers have to keep developing. If we don't we aren't in business. That's what differentiates the professionals from the rest. To us, it is business.

Regards...jmcc

+1

Moonstar

Very well thought out points and I don't disagree with them.

However I still believe that for long term growth, the industry needs to look outside the country. If the skills aren't there, encourage them - the LAMP model of development is still excellent and free, it just requires some patience and support.