Gardai revenge assault posse to be charged with assault

lostexpectation

so how many of the psychopaths apologists on here are proud of the gardai involved.

Four gardaí are facing assault charges after claims a young man was beaten at his home in Dublin’s south inner city during a raid.


Three men and a woman, who were suspended from the force by Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy last February, were served with summonses late last week.

All four gardaí, who had been based at Kevin Street and Kilmainham stations at the time, are facing assault charges while three are facing charges of false imprisonment. The case is due before the courts in Dublin on May 14th.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0427/breaking69.htm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0427/garda1.html

question is how many gardai were actually involved, did the gardai not charged co-operate,

report at the time said 9 in 3 cars.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nine-gardai-face-investigation-over-claim-of-serious-assault-1311598.html

how many back at the station knew what they were going to do and turned a blind eye?

it was reported at the time that 3 involved were on probation, did they not get fired at that point.

JonathanAnon

Looking in to my crystal ball,

1. State pays of fortune in compensation to the guy who was beaten.
2. Some guards moved to different stations.
3. Some guards possibly retired with full pension.
4. No loss of earnings/demotions for any of the offending gardaí.

Garda job description - For one who is not intelligent enough to reach a position of authority in any other area of life, but would like some authority all the same.

And well done to the Gardaí on messing up Michael Feichin Hannon's life by believing the word of a ten year old. I spose the taxpayers will bail ye out on that one as well. Same four points as above.

ArmaniJeanss

lostexpectation wrote: »

it was reported at the time that 3 involved were on probation, did they not get fired at that point.

Why would they get sacked?
I havn't read the links but I don't see why the fact that they are probationers would influence them getting sacked or not.

Surely every guard whether 25 years in or a rookie is entitled to due process in a court of law before being sacked?

ArmaniJeanss

JonathanAnon wrote: »

And well done to the Gardaí on messing up Michael Feichin Hannon's life by believing the word of a ten year old. I spose the taxpayers will bail ye out on that one as well.

Probably deserves a seperate thread but the guards are a relatively minor cog in the machine of this injustice.

False allegation are made but the guards obliged to act on it. They send a file to the DPP and its now out of the gardai's hands.

Someone in the DPP investigates, decides there is enough to bring a case.
Then the Criminal Court manages to convict a guilty man (EDIT : innocent, sorry)
There are far more culpable people to blame here then the guards.

Anyway, 2 defences of them in one thread is enough by me.

jimmycrackcorm

No smoke without fire I'd say.

JonathanAnon

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Probably deserves a seperate thread but the guards are a relatively minor cog in the machine of this injustice.

Yeah, I was gonna start one but just wasnt sure if it was "Politics" or where it fit in.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

False allegation are made but the guards obliged to act on it. They send a file to the DPP and its now out of the gardai's hands. Someone in the DPP investigates, decides there is enough to bring a case.

I would agree also, but in a number of cases (more noticably the case of Dean Lyons), the gardaí have made horrendous judgements of characters. The DPP dont get to interview the people from what I know, so they depend on the statements of the Gardaí. And one of the MANY Gardaí that interviewed in both of these particular cases should have said "there's something wrong here".

Bob Z

does anyone know what happened?

philopus109

the DPP arrogantly fought his application for a miscarraige of justice saying that the state did nothing wrong! Nothing wrong? There was no forensic evidence, no medical evidence, no witnesses, and wait for it, her own father was convicted of assaulting Hannon's father and the DPP and the guards accepts the testimony of a 10 year old and thats it? It a sickening disgrace but not surprising. Hannon is not the only one here I bet.

All one has to do is coach a child now in allegations of sexual abuse and point the finger at someone one is having a row with. That will stop the row and the baddie will win. Nothing has changed from the witch hunts in the middle ages. If someone said then you were a witch, then you were a witch and you burned. Because why would they say it was the then culture!
The DPP proved that when it comes to allegations, they are the witch hunters.
We need to overhaul the system of allegations before YOU are next!

philopus109

the DPP arrogantly fought his application for a miscarraige of justice saying that the state did nothing wrong! Nothing wrong? There was no forensic evidence, no medical evidence, no witnesses, and wait for it, her own father was convicted of assaulting Hannon's father and the DPP and the guards accepts the testimony of a 10 year old and thats it? It a sickening disgrace but not surprising. Hannon is not the only one here I bet.

All one has to do is coach a child now in allegations of sexual abuse and point the finger at someone one is having a row with. That will stop the row and the baddie will win. Nothing has changed from the witch hunts in the middle ages. If someone said then you were a witch, then you were a witch and you burned. Because why would they say it was the then culture!
The DPP proved that when it comes to allegations, they are the witch hunters.
We need to overhaul the system of allegations before YOU are next!

Bob Z

er....i think you are on the wrong topic

JonathanAnon

Bob Z wrote: »

er....i think you are on the wrong topic

Probably my fault for mentioning it. What he is asking is what happened with the alleged assault by a vigilante group of Gardaí. As in

"Four gardaí are facing assault charges after claims a young man was beaten at his home in Dublin’s south inner city during a raid."

oscarBravo

lostexpectation wrote: »

so how many of the psychopaths apologists on here are proud of the gardai involved.

I'd like you to clarify who you mean by "psychopaths", and who you mean by their "apologists".

jmayo

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Looking in to my crystal ball,

1. State pays of fortune in compensation to the guy who was beaten.
2. Some guards moved to different stations.
3. Some guards possibly retired with full pension.
4. No loss of earnings/demotions for any of the offending gardaí.

Garda job description - For one who is not intelligent enough to reach a position of authority in any other area of life, but would like some authority all the same.

And well done to the Gardaí on messing up Michael Feichin Hannon's life by believing the word of a ten year old. I spose the taxpayers will bail ye out on that one as well. Same four points as above.

I notice one almighty big chip on shoulder ?

I am not usually a Gardai apologist and definetly not a huge fan of their traffic corp, but they have to put up with a lot of sh** and often unfairly as in this case you laying the blame for something that is outside their control.
As pointed out by another poster, the DPP has even more to answer for in this case.
Imagine if guards do not investigate allegations, as in old days involving the good old clergy, and see the fallout in the media :rolleyes:

The DPP and the AG can screw up more cases than the guards.
Who tried to psuh the McBerarty's allegations in Donegal under the carpet but one very famous AG Michael McDowell.
Then after whole lot comes out the TD's (Jim Higgins FG Mayo and Brendan Howlin Lab Wexford) responsible for raising allegations to authorities were attacked by the justice who presided over a tribunal that of course still hasn't led to finding anyone guilty or brought any charges against corrupt gardai.

Slightly back on topic I think we need another police force, a paramiltiary one such as French CRS, Spanish Guardai Civil or Italian Carabinieri to start dealing with some of the scumbags that now inhabit some of our towns and cities.
Then implement a Singapore method of punishments instead of the nampby pamby falling over ourselves to help and rehabilitate the perps all the while ignoring the victims.
Oh almost forgot, for repeat offenders they get multiple sequential standard prison terms.

bazjnr

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Garda job description - For one who is not intelligent enough to reach a position of authority in any other area of life, but would like some authority all the same.

And well done to the Gardaí on messing up Michael Feichin Hannon's life by believing the word of a ten year old. I spose the taxpayers will bail ye out on that one as well. Same four points as above.

-Regarding Garda job description- most people joining the job are 3rd level graduates so i would deduce from that they are intelligent.

-As regards the Hannon case, as already pointed out it was the DPP who decided there was a case to answer and directed the Gardai to bring charges. and at court he was found guilty by a jury of his peers.

-Any Garda found guilty of assault should and do get dismissed.

Whats your problem? Someone stick a truncheon up your ass?

JonathanAnon

bazjnr wrote: »

-Regarding Garda job description- most people joining the job are 3rd level graduates so i would deduce from that they are intelligent.

Well all I can say is that ALL of the guys who were in school with me who became guards were on the other side of the law in school. I would find it hard to believe that "most" are 3rd level graduates, have you got any evidence of this?

bazjnr wrote: »

-Any Garda found guilty of assault should and do get dismissed.

Can you tell me of ANY case where this has happened without the individual being given full pension? And I mean this genuinely. As far as I can remember, NONE of the offending guards were reprimanded in any significant way for pretty much (what in other contexts would be called) terrorizing the McBreartys.

The lack of accountability for their actions, and the circle the wagons mentality means that we, the taxpayers, will continue to pay for their mistakes. If I make a mistake in my job, I dont get paid. I thought that the ombudsman was meant to sort this out?

Lu Tze

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Can you tell me of ANY case where this has happened without the individual being given full pension?... If I make a mistake in my job, I dont get paid. I thought that the ombudsman was meant to sort this out?

Are you saying that if somebody in your work place makes a mistake, which is so greivous that they are fired for it, they are no longer entitled to the pension they have paid into during their time working?

As regards the getting paid, at the moment they only stand accused, if proven innnocent it would be pretty harsh to have taken away their salary. Again in your work place given the above scenario, would they not pay you while they were investigating who was at fault for the mistake?

oscarBravo

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I would find it hard to believe that "most" are 3rd level graduates, have you got any evidence of this?

When you produce evidence that Gardaí are "not intelligent enough to reach a position of authority in any other area of life", you can start asking other people for evidence to support their positions.

jonsnow

Does anyone know of instances where guards or prison officers found guilty of crimes have actually served time in prison in Ireland.I think that there has been a number that have served time for sex offences- but have any actually served time for serious assault or corruption?.
In other European countries and in the US bent police officers and prison officers routinely go to prison themselves.But I haven,t heard of it happening in Ireland.

bazjnr

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Well all I can say is that ALL of the guys who were in school with me who became guards were on the other side of the law in school. I would find it hard to believe that "most" are 3rd level graduates, have you got any evidence of this?



Can you tell me of ANY case where this has happened without the individual being given full pension? And I mean this genuinely. As far as I can remember, NONE of the offending guards were reprimanded in any significant way for pretty much (what in other contexts would be called) terrorizing the McBreartys.

The lack of accountability for their actions, and the circle the wagons mentality means that we, the taxpayers, will continue to pay for their mistakes. If I make a mistake in my job, I dont get paid. I thought that the ombudsman was meant to sort this out?

Well JonathanAnon, out of my indvidual class of 24, 18 of us were graduates, that is 75% (see I can even do percentages I'm that intelligent I is!) and I would say that is indicative of Gardai joining over the last ten years. Is that evidence enough for ya, or would you like me to sign something given that I can do joined up writing as well!

NO Garda who is DISMISSED from the Force gets their pension! And I mean this genuinely. I think you are mixing this up with the Gardai who retired after 30 years service before they were pushed.

Accountability is everywhere in An Garda Siochana now thanks to the Garda Siochana Act 2005- you should peruse it. Modern Gardai are a whole lot different from those involved in Donegal years ago- Thank God! If the four Gardai you referred to had done what they are alleged to have done back in those times then you wouldn't have seen them before the Courts. What I am saying is things have moved in a positive direction.

Also Gardai are taxpayers too and probably pay more taxes and levies in relation to their pay than you do. Correct me if I am wrong but you don't sound like someone in the public sector. Can you honestly tell me that everyone where you work is totally perfect and beyond reproach? If so I would to move to your Utopian workplace. EVERY organisation has their bad apples and the whole organisation should not be judged by the failings of these people.

As you mentioned the Ombudsman, have you any issues with their accountability? For example, what about their cock up in relation to that Garda in Galway who was in Court for allegedly assaulting a woman. The case was thrown out before any evidence because the Ombudsman messed up the paperwork. If that had been a Garda case, the Garda who messed up would have been disciplined.

Just something for you to think about.

seanybiker

yawn. More people delighted that someone done something wrong so tars a whole work force with the same brush. Good work kids.

mrtaylor1981

Do not be surprised if you hear that this so called victim is a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter. They have done this so many times to discredit the RUC, their professionals at it now.

jonsnow

bazjnr wrote: »

Accountability is everywhere in An Garda Siochana now thanks to the Garda Siochana Act 2005- you should peruse it. Modern Gardai are a whole lot different from those involved in Donegal years ago- Thank God! If the four Gardai you referred to had done what they are alleged to have done back in those times then you wouldn't have seen them before the Courts. What I am saying is things have moved in a positive direction.

It takes a long time to turn a policing culture around.It is unlikely be done in four years.We are only now beginning to see the civilian oversight safeguards come into play and we don,t know how successful they will be yet.Lets see how this gardai assault case goes or lets see if we can get to the bottom of Kieran Boylans haulage licence before we get too carried away with "the new day" dawning.

Can anyone give any concrete examples of corrupt gardai actually serving jailtime!!.Has it ever happened in the history of the force!!.

jonsnow

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

Do not be surprised if you hear that this so called victim is a Sinn Fein/IRA supporter. They have done this so many times to discredit the RUC, their professionals at it now.

The RUC were a discredited force-which is why they had to be replaced by the PSNI.

oscarBravo

This thread isn't about the RUC or the PSNI; let's keep it on-topic.

jonsnow

oscarBravo wrote: »

This thread isn't about the RUC or the PSNI; let's keep it on-topic.

Fair enough

bazjnr

jonsnow wrote: »

It takes a long time to turn a policing culture around.It is unlikely be done in four years.We are only now beginning to see the civilian oversight safeguards come into play and we don,t know how successful they will be yet.Lets see how this gardai assault case goes or lets see if we can get to the bottom of Kieran Boylans haulage licence before we get too carried away with "the new day" dawning.

Can anyone give any concrete examples of corrupt gardai actually serving jailtime!!.Has it ever happened in the history of the force!!.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with you, we'll have to wait and see.

Concrete example:
Remember Garda Seamus Doherty who accepted a £500 bribe to shred a drink driving summons afew years back? He got a six-month jail sentence in the Court of Criminal Appeal after the DPP appealed the undue leniency of the original suspended sentence and fine imposed on by Dublin Circuit Criminal Court.

Other Guards doing jailtime:
Austin Woods jailed in July 2001 for harassment, got 3 year sentence reduced to 9 months on appeal.

Sergeant Kieran O’Halloran jailed in 2003 for attempting to pay prostitutes to get him children for sex. Can't remember what he got.

That's just off the top of my head

Turner

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Well all I can say is that ALL of the guys who were in school with me who became guards were on the other side of the law in school. I would find it hard to believe that "most" are 3rd level graduates, have you got any evidence of this?

Just for your information when gardai graduate they receive a Bachelor of Arts Degree from hetac.

Most already have degrees and many have masters degrees.

If you actually look past these people and their uniforms and see them as real people you will actually see that they are hand picked from thousands who apply from all over the country.

That means the best are actually picked for the job and those who are receive one of best and longest training of any police force in the world.

As for the gardai in this incident, lets leave it to the courts. The gardai dont decide their fate, a judge and jury will.

dresden8

As an aside, some of the biggest idiots I've ever dealt with had degrees or were highly educated.

A degree is an indication of a very narrow range of indicators.

They may not actually test for stupidity in those exams.

Education or intelligence?

Your choice.

JonathanAnon

Lu Tze wrote: »

As regards the getting paid, at the moment they only stand accused... Again in your work place given the above scenario, would they not pay you while they were investigating who was at fault for the mistake?

Was you that said from the "the moment they only stand accused". I refer to proven incompetent/unlawful behaviour. Also I work for myself in the private sector though I have done contract jobs for HSE and the council. If I do a bad job (i.e. make a mistake) I dont get hired again, and rightly so.

There is ambiguity over the pension issue discussed above as I refer to guards who are "pushed" (mentioned by bazjnr above), not in the few cases where the guards are actually fired. And I also refer to FULL pension, as opposed to the pension that EVERYONE is entitled to when they reach 65. It would be my opinion that if a public servant is "pushed" from their job because of incompetent/unlawful behaviour, they should be entitled to the basic pension and nothing more.

bazjnr wrote: »

Well JonathanAnon, out of my indvidual class of 24, 18 of us were graduates, that is 75%. Accountability is everywhere in An Garda Siochana now thanks to the Garda Siochana Act 2005- you should peruse it.

I accept your points regarding the "modern" guard. The two guards I had to deal with in the very recent past were old style guards. One in relation to a dog bite, and one in relation to a laptop which I was given in lieu of payment for a job. Both exhibited unbelievable incompetence with the very easy tasks I asked of them, which gives rise to my assertion about lack of intellect/interest in carrying out duties.

I will accept that there are incompetent people in all areas and all work places, but at least in other areas of life you get to choose whether to work with someone or not. You do not usually get to choose the guard that greets you in the station, and in my experience far too many do not have any interest in helping.

Incidentally I dont think it is fair to include prosecutions outside of the job (e.g. the guard that was prosecuted for soliciting children) as evidence as that there is reform within the Gardaí. The other cases cited are valid.

Daroxtar

In my opinion 99% of people who jump up and down screaming that the gards are a shower of thick clueless culchies are the kind of underhanded scum that deserve a hard time from the gards. Most gardai are ordinary everyday people who are doing an absolutely thankless job which entails dealing with the lowest form of human filth you'll ever have the displeasure to come across. So they get it wrong once in a while, big deal, everyone does.

Now the gards who beat the chap are getting prosecuted, I'd like a little background on the chap who got the beating. I sincerely doubt he was a lay missionary working with blind crippled orphans.

The usual "apologists" i see here are the kind of celtic jersey wearers that support the provo scum. Maybe the mighty RAAAAAAA would be better than the gards eh? There'd be no miscarraiges of justice then, not when they'd be calling to your house before trial date wearing balaclavas and armed with baseball bats.

The gardai have a sh!te job, no one else would do it and thank god for them. I'd rather have them than what they have stateside, in the UK or just about anywhere else for that matter.

Actually, I'd like to see what particular police force in the world the OP would prefer to the gards. Go on, pick one, anyone at all. Give me something to laugh at

seanybiker

Bob Z wrote: »

does anyone know what happened?

Great question. No nobody posting in this thread knows what really happened.
Some people just like giving out about the guards because its cool to hate them. Maybe the guards in this case did act the fecker, maybe they didnt. I do find it funny that since 4 guards might have acted the **** head, and now we have people tarring em all with the same brush. Yes some guards do act the eegit , jaysus all the cops know that. Irish people , and yes I am irish through and through, love to find people to blame things on. Every irish site im on people give out about cops doing speed checks and not sorting out "real crime" simple fact is
that its easy to catch someone speeding cos we all do it. But when a murder or whatever occurs the cops
lose their super powers that everyone thinks they have. Then people go on about them. How many threads where on here about the young guard that chased the car and got pinned to a wall and died. How many of
us ring the guards everytime we see something illegal happening. I done 110mph on my bike tonight. If i got caught I would take it on the chin and not whinge about it. People love Irish people and sadly I cant understand why.