DCM Novices / Sub 4:30 Mentored thread

osnola ibax

Aw well, there's always a down size to everything, huh huh see what I did there

I've had to buy new jeans aswell, old ones were falling off me, colleagues told me I looked like a hunt, hunt I said, bit harsh

--amadeus--

OI the generic advice would be stick to and trust your schedule and train through teh race, substituting your race for teh weekly LSR. Dropping in Yassos or PMPs instead of the recommended sessions wouldn't be the best, tbh. And I can see where you are coming from with running on grass but you need to keep time on the roads and concrete - the mara is on road so you need to prep your joints for that. The discomfort at the minute is your body making the physiological adaptations it needs to make to cope with 26,2 miles on a hard surface. General heart / CV system adapts first, muscles second and the joints and skeletal system adapt last.

I have seen stiches and cramps mentioned a few times now and I'm not the best to advise - I don't cramp and my stitches tend to go when I get fitter. My only advice would be stay hydrated and keep your electrolyte levels up but ask in the main forum for better advice.

Sub430

Amadeus,

I have only run on roads so far but am thinking of doing tomorrow on grass just to mix it up. Is this ok or would you just keep to the roads? No pain from the roads just thought it better to vary it.

Munster_Gal

I went from 10st 6lbs to 9st 1lb.
Haven't weighed myself for a week or so though and I've been eating everything left right and centre so far this week so I would imagine that I've put on a bit.

abi2007

Am I the only one putting on weight then! dammit.

abi2007

Sub430 wrote: »

Amadeus,

I have only run on roads so far but am thinking of doing tomorrow on grass just to mix it up. Is this ok or would you just keep to the roads? No pain from the roads just thought it better to vary it.

I prefer running on roads myself, but I'm with a running meet up group and they mix it up a bit. Also run on the treadmil alot, is this good or bad?

--amadeus--

Mixing up teh surfaces is fine - most of my running is on a gravel trail for example with LSRs on paths. As long as you don't do everything off road you'll be fine!

And Abi I've gained over a stone in the last year, so no you're not the only one!

Sub430

LT run finished thank God.

Did 5 miles in total. 42m16s.

2 LT miles, tried to keep HR between 80 and 90% i.e 170-185. Avg 175.

Went out too quickly.

Mile 1 - 7m07
Mile 2 - 7m49

--amadeus--

7:07 was my average pace in Rotterdam this year, it's a lovely number

Personally I'd avoid treadmill as much as possible. They don't replicate road running particularly well (minimal gradients, no wind resistance and no weather as well as not really toughening up the joints). An occasional session is fine but you want your training to mimic the race as closely as possible so road running is the way to go.

Oryx

I just managed a 3 mile treadmill run last night, and had cruel and unusual physio today which has me off running till late tomorrow at least. Another session on the other leg on Friday is putting paid to this week, dammit. I seem to have hit a wall of fatigue and physical problems which are preventing me training as I would like.

Im watching you all getting on with your LTs and LSRs and feeling very disheartened!

Re the weight issue, Im gaining.

Sub430

Oryx wrote: »

Im watching you all getting on with your LTs and LSRs and feeling very disheartened!

Chin up Oryx, you'll be back to your best before you know it.

Fair play to the whole team for keeping the effort up, looks like we just need to hear an update from "the auld" triangle.

Bally8

Re weight: Im also gaining. I cant stop eating these days.

rainbow kirby

I'm hoping to lose about another 10-12lbs, I've absolutely zero junk food down here in my house but resisting the cravings at work is hard... I had a Cadbury's Caramel at 5pm today to stop myself from falling asleep.

Sub430

3 easy miles. 26m 29. Tried to keep HR<155. Avg 149, max 159.

Bally8

Just about to do my LT run. To be clear- do I run a mile easy then run 2 miles as fast as I can and then a mile cool down? Im still having walking breaks, do I just try forget them today and run the whole 4 miles? That would be a big undertaking for me. Im doing 9 mins running with 1 min walking.

Sub430

I took it as a mile easy then two miles at the fastest pace you could keep up for 10miles and then another slow mile to cool down.
Don't go as fast as sprinting though.

In laymans terms and this is NOT scientific but just my novice understanding.

At a certain effort, lactic acid builds up, if too much is produced it will have a negative effect on performance. If you sprint over a long period, a lot of lactic acid will build up tot eh point where you will need to stop.

The reason for the LT runs is to train your muscles at an effort below sprinting (or where lactic acid accumulates) so the next time you run, you will be able to run faster before the lactic acid build up, keep doing these sort of runs along with the other mileage and you will be able to run harder, faster, longer without the dip in performance.

Hope this helps.

Corrections please amadeus

Bally8

Thanks Sub430. I'll do my best. Seens as I have never ran further than 7 miles though I will have to guess what my 10miles pace would be.:) Im all pumped up to try run the whole thing!

--amadeus--

OK, health check warning!!

The training plans are generic and should always be modified up or down to suit your own particular circumstances. If you feel that strides, LT or PMP runs are beyond your current level then don't do them!

The standard way of doing an LT session would be as you described it - mile warmup then your LT session then mile warmdown. And LT running is not "as fast as you can", it's anywhere from 10k to half marathon speed, depending on your own pace - usually it's whatever speed you think you could hold for 60 mins.

In your case I would do the warm up / down sections as you normally would, although perhaps at a lower intensity. LT training is probably taking a leap to far too soon though so maybe run a fartlek for teh middle 2 miles. Basically run at your normal speed and then pick a point (a tree, a corner, bench - whatever). When you reach that point pick up the speed, to anything from a slightly faster run to a full blooded sprint. As you pick up the speed pick another point (anything from 50 to several hundred meters away) and hold your pace until you reach it. Repeat for teh run duration (and interspersing walks as needed)

That will allow you to get the benefits of teh faster pace running while still dropping to a walk occasionally

Bally8

Excellent thanks amadeus, I'll give that a go.

Sub430

Best of luck, you'll be grand.

osnola ibax

ok, just back from LT session of sorts. I say of sorts because:

1. I just tried to run my 3.3 mile route as fast as I thought I could
2. There is now way I could maintain that pace for 10 miles
3. There was no warm up mile or warm down mile

Anyhoo, 3.3 miles 25min38sec, av 7:46 min miles, quite happy about that, average HR was 174.

Amadeus or anyone really, couple of things:

is that HR too high?

What is the formula for calculating % hr. Is it (av hr - resting hr) / (max hr - resting hr), i.e. in this case (174 - 55) / (191 - 55) = 119 / 136 = 87%?

and, what percentage HR should the marathon be run at, is it greater than the LSR percentage of 70%?

Mr Marenghi

Did my 5 miles, about 42 mins, was easy enough, but strangely had a stiff neck afterwards.

My long run is on a Wed because I do my cross on a thursday (yoga), so just moved the days but works out the same in 1 week.

My question is that I missed some of the runs over last few weeks and really only got in a lot of 3/4 mile runs, not the 6mile etc

So next week will I move on with the programme , will i make my long run the 9mile etc ? or is that too big a transition ?

Bally8

From my training log thought I would post it here too:
4 miles in 39:05. As Im not yet ready for LT training I tried some fartlek training instead. Mile 1 was done nice and easy 9 mins running, 1 min walking, just over 10 mins in total. Mile 2 I picked a sign and sped up when I got to it. I could see my slowing down point just up ahead. I felt wonderful, I cant remember the last time I just ran like that, it was like I was opening up, felt powerful or something. Slowed down when I reached another sign. I did this 3 times. After 9 minutes I had my walking break and was on mile 3 by then. I could only manage 1 more fast section after that. My legs felt too heavy to lift so I slowly trodded home. Tough session really felt I worked hard. Loved the feeling of running fast which is amazing as I have always avoided fast running in the past.

Sub430

osnola ivax wrote: »

is that HR too high?

What is the formula for calculating % hr. Is it (av hr - resting hr) / (max hr - resting hr), i.e. in this case (174 - 55) / (191 - 55) = 119 / 136 = 87%?

and, what percentage HR should the marathon be run at, is it greater than the LSR percentage of 70%?

OI,

I don't think 174 is too high but this will depend on your max heart rate. For example my resting heart rate is 48 and my max is 200 so from here

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/hrm1.htm

using my RHR and MaxHR, my AT training should be done between 80 and 90% i.e between 170 and 185. During my LT runs I averaged HR of 175.

As it says you may have to fiddle with the age once you enter your MHR in order to make it work. I had to stick in that I was 20

I reckon the marathon will be done around 70-75%

It's probably best not to get bogged down in all this as it's not 100% precise but I know it's hard not to!

osnola ibax

thanks sub430, just out of curiosity, how did you establish your max hr

osnola ibax

Bally8 wrote: »

Mile 2 I picked a sign and sped up when I got to it. I could see my slowing down point just up ahead. I felt wonderful, I cant remember the last time I just ran like that, it was like I was opening up, felt powerful or something. Slowed down when I reached another sign. I did this 3 times.

Hi Bally8, I incorporated some strides into a run last week, which are more or less mini fartleks, I felt like you did here, it was really wonderful to stretch the legs like that. I also like to think that the cars that passed me at those moments thought I was was going that fast for the duration of the 5 mile run. roger bannister, eat your heart out.

--amadeus--

For info on HR zones try here. LT runs should be between 77 - 83% of HRR and it will calculate the bpm if you plug the numbers in at the top.

In terms of teh marathon my RHR is around 60 and max is somewhere between 195 and 200 (never properly checked either) and I ran my last marathon with an avg HR of 175. But tbh I second Sub430's advice - don't get hung up and run by perceived effort rather than HR on teh day.

Sub430

osnola ivax wrote: »

thanks sub430, just out of curiosity, how did you establish your max hr

Warmed up with a 10 minute run then found a longish hill, legged it up and walked down. Did this until I was wrecked, took the highest reading. I've been meaning to do it again, also been meaning to visit the dentist since 2005..

goofygirl

went back to local running club the other night when I was meant to do 4 miles and instead we did 6 x 800m which comes to 3 miles. So going to do my 4 miler tonight instead. Getting into this speedwork thing in a sort of love/hate relationship!

Sub430

--amadeus-- wrote: »

For info on HR zones try here. LT runs should be between 77 - 83% of HRR and it will calculate the bpm if you plug the numbers in at the top.

Cheers amadeus, you must be sick of questions requiring precise answers but here goes, I think me and the OI may be of the same ilk
You said previously that we wouldn't be training in the VO2 max zone so that leaves us with recovery, long slow and LT.

Long slow is fine - that's my weekend run.
LT - again understood, will do it when ordered
Recovery runs? When should they be done? Tues and Thurs? Day after LSR
Or just when you feel tired and otherwise do all runs in the LSR zone

Thanks for your patience.