DCM Novices / Sub 4:30 Mentored thread

osnola ibax

Sub430 wrote: »

Cheers amadeus, you must be sick of questions requiring precise answers but here goes, I think me and the OI may be of the same ilk
You said previously that we wouldn't be training in the VO2 max zone so that leaves us with recovery, long slow and LT.

Long slow is fine - that's my weekend run.
LT - again understood, will do it when ordered
Recovery runs? When should they be done? Tues and Thurs? Day after LSR
Or just when you feel tired and otherwise do all runs in the LSR zone

Thanks for your patience.

yeah, its really easy and kinda fun to get into HR zones and the like. And as I said before I love using running terminology in front of the OH as it really irritates her, so when I told her I did my LT run today, I got plenty of these :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:. Cant wait to drop a VO2Max into a conversation soon .

Not sure if i mentioned it on this thread but I can't wait for the 5 miler in the park, I'm so excited about it. I think its because I got such a buzz at the start line of the wexford half and I haven't had that buzz since.

I wonder is it the case that its never as good as the first time.

--amadeus--

If it's any consolation GG I think we all have a love / hate relationship with speedwork!

Sub...

Ooooo, where to start on that one! I'm going to go back a few steps first. The program I am posting is based on the HH Novice I program. It's an excellent program and highly regarded. And it works, hundreds of thousands of people use it every year.

But to me the actual plan is...well...it's a little bit boring. It's all pretty much the same session, no pace variations, just get out and plod. And it makes no sense to me to run your weekend long run at the same pace as your 3 or 4 miler. So I am spicing it up by bringing in a speed session to the midweek run. And since I am a week ahead of you all (training for Amsterdam) and following a P&D schedule I am taking teh speed session from them and adapting it for you (so it's back to strides next week).

As such I don't have teh full schedule pre-written and pre planned. Well I do, but it's in two places that get merged once a week. So I can't give you a specific "you'll run session x on date y". I'm also adapting intensity up and down according to how you are getting on, so again I didn't think VO2 max was feasible based on the Yasso 800s but you've all done well with LT so maybe we will.

Which is a waffly way of saying that this is an inexact art and - while I respect your demanding exact figures - I can't always give them. And as a mentor rather than a coach I'm not sure I want to!

Now teh stern, wagging finger bit....most of you are fairly new to running. You're pretty much all new to marathons. As such I really do not recommend using a HRM to dictate your training. You need to learn to run by perceived effort, need to learn when you are pushing too hard and when you can step it up a gear. A HRM can't and won't tell you that. Only experience will. And using a HRM can provide feedback but you should be learning to get the feedback from your bosy rather than a wrist monitor. It's like learning to drive and changing gears based on the rev counter rather than the engine note. All well and good till you drive a car without a rev counter! On teh day anything can happen - my Garmin has crashed twice in marathons (losing GPS signal) and my mates HRM failed on teh start line in Paris so he had to run without it. You've also got a lot of unknowns on teh day - HR drift for example - that could leave you looking at the HRM at mile 20 and thinking "oh oh, better slow down, HR is spiking!" when in fact you're fine and could just push on. I am worried that rather than letting a HRM be an aid to your training you maybe letting it dictate it.

So please, please, please use HRMs as a guide and try to run to perceived effort as much as possible! And that means that some days you'll run slow. And some days fast. And that's fine, it's all miles in the bank!

--amadeus--

Actually re-reading that it sounds a bit (a lot!) cranky.

It's not supposed to be. And learning about different types of training is fun. And good for annoying teh OH I suppose that I don't want any of you falling into the trap of thinking that a piece of fancy kit makes you a better runner

osnola ibax

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Actually re-reading that it sounds a bit (a lot!) cranky.

It's not supposed to be. And learning about different types of training is fun. And good for annoying teh OH I suppose that I don't want any of you falling into the trap of thinking that a piece of fancy kit makes you a better runner

I didn't read that as being cranky at all. It makes sense to me. It's just that throwing hr into the equation means that you can see improvements in the effort to pace ratio in real & tangible terms. But yes you can too bogged down in it. E.g. I am currently feeling a little anxious that I don't know my actual max hr through some kind of vigourous routine and it isn't right to feel like that as a novice whose main aim is to enjoy the whole experience.

I think i would rather run with out hrm because I will run faster. I'm sure I could run off 9 min miles for a 10 - 13 mile training run without too much perceived effort (that's just being honest, particularly in cool conditions without strong wind) but now I think that may be overdoing it as 9 min miles is my pmp and lsr training runs should be done 1 min to 1 1/2 min slower. In that regard the hrm keeps me in check as by trying to keep hr below 155, I am slowing my runs to correct pace.

Also, everyone has read articles of runners having heart attacks / dying during marathons. My father sometimes bangs on about it to me. It was because of him that I got a full medical before commencing training for half marathon. But it has crept into my head and sometimes I think that my heart rate is an improtant measure of fitness and the more efficient it is, the less likely I drop down mid run. I know this is just plain silly.

I don't think I'll always wear hrm, and definitely not in races, but I think I will put it on for lsr's to pace myself and track improvement. Also I would never consider myself a good runner, regardless of equipment, unless I could run 10k in 35 mins, then I'd say I was pretty decent (secret long term goal......not). Ramble ends....... OI

--amadeus--

osnola ivax wrote: »

Also, everyone has read articles of runners having heart attacks / dying during marathons. My father sometimes bangs on about it to me. It was because of him that I got a full medical before commencing training for half marathon.

Our GP is also a multiple marathon runner and a member of teh sports medicine council (and a dam nice fella!). MrsA went in for a pain in her foot and I tagged along and he told me - absolutely categorically - that I would never die of a heart attack (because of all teh training I do).

He kind of spoiled it though because he told me that after cheerfully announcing that I'd end my life "crippled with arthritis"!

osnola ibax

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Our GP is also a multiple marathon runner and a member of teh sports medicine council (and a dam nice fella!). MrsA went in for a pain in her foot and I tagged along and he told me - absolutely categorically - that I would never die of a heart attack (because of all teh training I do).

He kind of spoiled it though because he told me that after cheerfully announcing that I'd end my life "crippled with arthritis"!

I lol'd, if it's not one thing...... at least you wouldn't be dead, just living out your days in unbearable pain

Oryx

Im finally beginning to feel benefit from the agonising physio sessions this week, and am planning a lsr tomorrow after just two 3 mile sessions so far this week. Hopefully from here on in Ill be back up with the pack.

osnola ibax

Glad to hear you are on the mend oryx, planning an lsr tomorrow aswell, although probably overdid today. I felt strong so went to see if I could get I under the 40 min mark for a 5 miler in prep for the race next saturday. I did, barely. This is my last fast run until the actual race, I just wanted a confidence booster. So there ain't enough o's in the world to describe how slooooooooow I'm gonna go tomorrow.

Also was planning on incrementing my lsr's by 2 each week, but just gonna increment by 1 tomorrow. Then i'm taking a rest day on mon, three short and slow (ish) runs tue, we'd and thur (3 miles), and hopefully will be set to give it socks on Saturday

Oryx

I'm just doing all this since my calves seized, and I had no idea what bad shape my legs were in, turns out I had a years running with no maintenance and feck all stretching causing the problem. I thought I was fit, lol. But I need it done before Sunday fortnight, which is my mad insane xc in the uk.

Sub430

6 mile LSR done without using my stabilisers (HRM), well I wore it but didn't check the readings until the end.

Ran on preceived effort as advised by the gaffer and all credit to the gaffer it was more enjoyable especially for the first half, second half was into a headwind and fairly uphill - not so much fun. I have found a fairly undulating course so going to stick to that for the LSRs.

6 miles - 55m23s - Avg 9m 13 per mile - Avg HR 159, max 173

Right hamstring tight again coming to end of run, fine now though. Hopefully just my body adapting to the miles. Are massages helpful or just leave it be?

Oryx

Sub430, Ive found the stuff Im getting done, helpful, deffo. Because I left it for a long time, he used needles instead of massage, which is painful for 24-48 hours afterward. Fine now, tho. I dont know if everyone would agree, but I know I needed it based on the way I felt last week when everything in my legs got strained during strides. Plus Im getting chronic cramp in my calves. I suppose its up to you, but one session to see might not do any harm?

Munster_Gal

I'm totally not cut out for this marathon craic.........
Legs are knackered after running 1 mile!!!!! 5 miles today were tough but only cause I was getting so tired! Legs aren't hurting though which is great (I'll probably retract that last statement this time tomorrow)

Mr Marenghi

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Did my 5 miles, about 42 mins, was easy enough, but strangely had a stiff neck afterwards.

My long run is on a Wed because I do my cross on a thursday (yoga), so just moved the days but works out the same in 1 week.

My question is that I missed some of the runs over last few weeks and really only got in a lot of 3/4 mile runs, not the 6mile etc

So next week will I move on with the programme , will i make my long run the 9mile etc ? or is that too big a transition ?

Can somebody answer this question I posted please ?

Thanks

osnola ibax

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Can somebody answer this question I posted please ?

Thanks

The short answer from me is I don't know, I would imagine that you do really need to be getting the lsr's in as they are the cornerstone of marathon training (open to correction). But I remeber doing a 13 mile training run for half marathon when my previous longest run was 9 miles and I needed to get Physio on my foot for the following 2 weeks. I over did it.

I would definitely consider doing a long run though but taking it veeerrry sloooww. Judging by your time quoted above, you seem to have a good level of fitness.

--amadeus--

You know the drill, tell us all about your thrills and spills!

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow||||
Mr Marenghi||||
osnola ivax||||
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8||||
Munster_Gal||||
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||

rainbow kirby

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi||||
osnola ivax||||
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8||||
Munster_Gal||||
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||

--amadeus--

This weeks plan...:

Monday | Tuesday|Wedensday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
rest|3 m run|4 m Fartlek|3 m run|rest|cross|9


As you can see we take a bit of a step back up on the LSR this week, with the mileage up to 9 (a fraction over 1/3 marathon distance). Again take your time on this run, don't be looking to break any records. Put it this way I'm doing my LSRs at a fraction over 9 m/miles so if you're going faster than that there is an issue somewhere!

You'll also see that we have a new element this week - Fartlek running (stop sniggering!). I explained these last week - run at an easy pace and pick a landmark. When you reach it pick up the pace; how much is up to you (anything from sprint to strides). As you pick up the pace pick another landmark and fast run to it - the faster you pick up the pace the shorter the distance you should run.

All clear?

Munster_Gal

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi||||
osnola ivax||||
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8||||
Munster_Gal| 3 | 11 | 33 |Missed one session again this week but got my 5 miles in. My 9 mile will have to be done mid week next as I'm gonna be doing the 5 miles in Dublin on Saturday.
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||

--amadeus--

Mr Marenghi wrote: »

Did my 5 miles, about 42 mins, was easy enough, but strangely had a stiff neck afterwards.

My long run is on a Wed because I do my cross on a thursday (yoga), so just moved the days but works out the same in 1 week.

My question is that I missed some of the runs over last few weeks and really only got in a lot of 3/4 mile runs, not the 6mile etc

So next week will I move on with the programme , will i make my long run the 9mile etc ? or is that too big a transition ?

Personally I would carry on with the program but try and plan a LSR route that takes you past home at key points so that you can bail if it gets to much.

Bally8

Deleted as I broke the table thing.

Bally8

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi||||
osnola ivax||||
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8|5|20.5|60.2|Feel much stronger mentally after this week. I have a new found belief that I can actually achieve this
Munster_Gal| 3 | 11 | 33 |Missed one session again this week but got my 5 miles in. My 9 mile will have to be done mid week next as I'm gonna be doing the 5 miles in Dublin on Saturday.
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||

Bally8

--amadeus-- wrote: »

This weeks plan...:

Monday | Tuesday|Wedensday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
rest|3 m run|4 m Fartlek|3 m run|rest|cross|9


As you can see we take a bit of a step back up on the LSR this week, with the mileage up to 9 (a fraction over 1/3 marathon distance). Again take your time on this run, don't be looking to break any records. Put it this way I'm doing my LSRs at a fraction over 9 m/miles so if you're going faster than that there is an issue somewhere!

You'll also see that we have a new element this week - Fartlek running (stop sniggering!). I explained these last week - run at an easy pace and pick a landmark. When you reach it pick up the pace; how much is up to you (anything from sprint to strides). As you pick up the pace pick another landmark and fast run to it - the faster you pick up the pace the shorter the distance you should run.

All clear?

Fartlek hee hee:D

rainbow kirby

Munster_Gal

rainbow kirby wrote: »

we should all have one for the marathon

osnola ibax

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi||||
osnola ivax|6|33.84|87.64|really happy with this week
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8|5|20.5|60.2|Feel much stronger mentally after this week. I have a new found belief that I can actually achieve this
Munster_Gal| 3 | 11 | 33 |Missed one session again this week but got my 5 miles in. My 9 mile will have to be done mid week next as I'm gonna be doing the 5 miles in Dublin on Saturday.
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||


I'm really happy with how this week went, running wise anyway. I'm gonna sort out nutrition next week, I have a penchant for junk food that I just cant shake.

In terms of running though, I broke 8 min miles for two of my runs, a 3.3 on Thursday and a 5.7 on Saturday. I know thats not ideal training but I wanted a bit of a confidance boost before the 5 miler this Saturday and I have that now. I did flog myself for both runs though, but I don't see any harm (touching loads of wood) in taking yourself out of your comfort zone every now and again.

My lsr went well also. I swapped next weeks lsr with this weeks as I have the race next week so I'm gonna take Sunday off. Today I ran 10.84 miles, 1:44:30, avg 9:38 miles, avg bpm 154. They are tough workouts those lsr's. You can really feel them in the legs. Debating taking a day off tomorrow but think i'll chance a 3.3 mile slow recovery run at lunch time.

Plan for next week:
Monday 3.3 recovery run
Tuesday 3.3 easy run
Wednesday 6 with however many miles amadeus said to fartlek for
Thursday 2 - 3
Friday rest
Saturday 5 mile race

Anyone any ideas on how best to get to the start line, time to be there, I'll be coming from the Coolock area.

Mr Marenghi

Bally8 wrote: »

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi|4|19|46| gonna try the 9mile this week, also the ADIDAS 5miler in the Phoenix Park !
osnola ivax|6|33.84|61.44| really happy with this week
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8|5|20.5|60.2|Feel much stronger mentally after this week. I have a new found belief that I can actually achieve this
Munster_Gal| 3 | 11 | 33 |Missed one session again this week but got my 5 miles in. My 9 mile will have to be done mid week next as I'm gonna be doing the 5 miles in Dublin on Saturday.
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||

Felt good this week !

osnola ibax

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi|4|19|46|gonna try the 9mile this week, also the ADIDAS 5miler in the Phoenix Park!
osnola ivax|6|33.84|87.64|really happy with this week
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8|5|20.5|60.2|Feel much stronger mentally after this week. I have a new found belief that I can actually achieve this
Munster_Gal| 3 | 11 | 33 |Missed one session again this week but got my 5 miles in. My 9 mile will have to be done mid week next as I'm gonna be doing the 5 miles in Dublin on Saturday.
Goofygirl||||
Abi2007||||


ok?

TheRoadRunner

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Do you have a link to where these can be bought ?

rainbow kirby

I just did a google image search for them, not sure exactly where to get them.

goofygirl

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430||||
Rainbow| 4 | 22 | 60.5 | Schedule things a bit better and don't be trying to shove everything into the weekend! 9 mile long run this week.
Mr Marenghi|4|19|46|gonna try the 9mile this week, also the ADIDAS 5miler in the Phoenix Park!
osnola ivax|6|33.84|87.64|really happy with this week
McConkey||||
oryx|||||
Bally8|5|20.5|60.2|Feel much stronger mentally after this week. I have a new found belief that I can actually achieve this
Munster_Gal| 3 | 11 | 33 |Missed one session again this week but got my 5 miles in. My 9 mile will have to be done mid week next as I'm gonna be doing the 5 miles in Dublin on Saturday.
Goofygirl|4|19|55|em nothing to add really,just plugging away
Abi2007||||