DCM Novices / Sub 4:30 Mentored thread

buck65 · 09-09-2009 8:41am

Finally got out today after a week out sick. I was beginning to crack up, did 5 miles today in 43.55. Something of a record for me too!
Will do a short run either tomorrow or Friday and be ready hopefully for my 16 miler on Saturday morning.

Sub430 · 09-09-2009 8:44am

8 miles this morning - beautiful morning, that bright thing is back in the blue, cloudless sky. 4 days of this apparently. Get in.

Remembered this was meant to be a fartlek session with just a mile and a half to go

so it was more a strides session for the last mile.

1:15:41 - really enjoyed it. Found a flatter course

racheljev · 09-09-2009 1:26pm

I know I'm not an allstar but I hope you don't mind me posting on this thread, cos I'm kinda sorta around the same stage in training as some of you. I'm having problems with the mental side of this now, lots of "I don't think I can do this, who am I kidding, won't make it to the end of the road" kind of stuff. I did 8.2 miles this morning and the last 3 felt like the whole lot put together. Just wondering if anyone else is having / has had similar problems and how do you cope? I coped this morning by putting one blinkin' foot in front of the other, is that the only way to go?!

racheljev · 09-09-2009 1:26pm

Oooh forgot to add this is one of my fave threads because the progress is so easy to see and really really encouraging to a wuss like me:)

Sub430 · 09-09-2009 1:51pm

racheljev wrote: »

I know I'm not an allstar but I hope you don't mind me posting on this thread, cos I'm kinda sorta around the same stage in training as some of you. I'm having problems with the mental side of this now, lots of "I don't think I can do this, who am I kidding, won't make it to the end of the road" kind of stuff. I did 8.2 miles this morning and the last 3 felt like the whole lot put together. Just wondering if anyone else is having / has had similar problems and how do you cope? I coped this morning by putting one blinkin' foot in front of the other, is that the only way to go?!

Another lunatic for the asylum, come join us.

I've had a couple of runs like that, luckily not too many. For me it's a case of just getting it done and forgetting about it and moving on.

Looking back at my long run at w/e (so much for forgetting about it :rolleyes:) that was a mare, I now realise that I didn't eat enough before it, had a bagel a few hours before and that was it - fell asunder near the end.

Did you do anything different before todays run?

buck65 · 09-09-2009 3:03pm

Rachel , I've had whole weeks like that. If you scroll back you'll see me pissing and moaning away.:D

--amadeus-- · 09-09-2009 5:38pm

Bad runs are part and parcel of marathon training, no matter how many of them you've done. I can't remember the hundreds and thousands of average and happy miles I've run but the bad ones I remember as clear as day.

Two things to do - put it behind you. It happens to all of us so don't dwell on it. Best remedy is to go out and get a decent run in as soon as possible to flush teh bad one out of your system.

Second thing is to learn the lessons - exactly as sub has done. What did you do differently this time? What can you do better next time? Learn the lessons and you'll be flying along.

And self doubt is all part of the process too. And it's something else that won't ever really go away. I remember standing on teh start line of my 3rd marathon wondering what on earth I was doing, I didn't have enough training done, everyone else looks so fit, I'll make a show of myself. It turned out that it was the only marathon I have ever run that went 100% according to plan! The doubts will change - as you notch up races you'll get confident you can cover the distance but will doubt your speed - but we all have them.

The trick may be positive self talk. If you are one of these people who obsesses on the negative then you need to make an effort to fix it. Sit down some evening and write a list of why you will run a great race. List the LSRs you've done. List the really good runs (the ones where you skipped the chocolate bar and soaps to go out in the wind & rain). List the weight loss, the improved fitness, other races and your times in them - anything and everything. Reread the list and memorise it.

Then next time you find yourself thinking "what am I doing" or in a really tough place in a race or training run mentally review the list. Remind yourself why you deserve to finish and finish well. Dwell on the good runs, relive them. Use teh positive thoughts to drive out the negative.

Novices never believe me but more of teh marathon is run with your brain than your legs. It needs to be trained just as much as they do.

racheljev · 09-09-2009 7:04pm

Thanks for the advice folks. It wasn't just this morning, I've had a couple of bad runs. I haven't been doing anything different - I go out just before 6 and run, then come home, get the kids ready and have brekkie. But you're right, I need to put the bad ones out of my mind. Real life is distracting and upsetting at the minute so that's not helping. Going out again tomorrow morning for 5 miles so I'll see how that goes. I was looking back at the schedule I kept when I started and I realised I started my training 7 months today. From walking 3mins, running 1min, I've moved on so much. Maybe I need to dwell on that and not on the neg stuff. Thanks again.

goofygirl · 09-09-2009 7:21pm

maybe an obvious point but are you getting enough sleep if you're up that early every day??

racheljev · 09-09-2009 7:35pm

maybe an obvious point but are you getting enough sleep if you're up that early every day??

Good question! Yeah I reckon I'm ok on the sleep front, I've gotten used to surviving on very little cos my youngest decided to not sleep through the night till she was almost 3:eek:.

Mr Marenghi · 09-09-2009 10:52pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Bad runs are part and parcel of marathon training, no matter how many of them you've done. I can't remember the hundreds and thousands of average and happy miles I've run but the bad ones I remember as clear as day.

Two things to do - put it behind you. It happens to all of us so don't dwell on it. Best remedy is to go out and get a decent run in as soon as possible to flush teh bad one out of your system.

Second thing is to learn the lessons - exactly as sub has done. What did you do differently this time? What can you do better next time? Learn the lessons and you'll be flying along.

And self doubt is all part of the process too. And it's something else that won't ever really go away. I remember standing on teh start line of my 3rd marathon wondering what on earth I was doing, I didn't have enough training done, everyone else looks so fit, I'll make a show of myself. It turned out that it was the only marathon I have ever run that went 100% according to plan! The doubts will change - as you notch up races you'll get confident you can cover the distance but will doubt your speed - but we all have them.

The trick may be positive self talk. If you are one of these people who obsesses on the negative then you need to make an effort to fix it. Sit down some evening and write a list of why you will run a great race. List the LSRs you've done. List the really good runs (the ones where you skipped the chocolate bar and soaps to go out in the wind & rain). List the weight loss, the improved fitness, other races and your times in them - anything and everything. Reread the list and memorise it.

Then next time you find yourself thinking "what am I doing" or in a really tough place in a race or training run mentally review the list. Remind yourself why you deserve to finish and finish well. Dwell on the good runs, relive them. Use teh positive thoughts to drive out the negative.

Novices never believe me but more of teh marathon is run with your brain than your legs. It needs to be trained just as much as they do.

So strange this is being talked about today.

I did 12miles this evening and it was hell. 16miles last week and most other runs were fine, but for some reason todays was painful, hardest in a long long time.

But like everybody seems to say, move on, forget about it ! Just one of those days !

Sub430 · 12-09-2009 9:05pm

No update on this in a while, from reading the personal logs, it seems a few of us are suffering from niggles, myself included.
I diagnosed myself with metatarsalgia on Thursday morning, a condition suffered by long distance runners, middle aged women and those who wear high heels frequently (2 out of 3 ain't bad

)

Following the advice of menescemo that a recovery run won't help you recover, I decided to take a break and stretch and ice the foot until today when I ventured out. To be honest I had to stop a couple of times to see if there was a stone in my shoe (a common sign of the injury) so maybe it's not fully recovered but the run went fine.

13m in 2:09 at a steady 10m mile pace, tired near the end though admittedly because I didn't take any water or fuel on board. I'm in two minds about gels, the first time I took them I did feel a benefit but now my body seems to expect one on each long run. From reading advice on the forums I am taking a break from the gels until the marathon proper.

Anything else that you can bring with you that doesn't give you such a sudden rush? Any recommendations from anyone reading? I've a fairly strong stomach so would be happy to try anything. I am starting to swear by bananas before a run but it would be difficult to carry one during a run.

Only 3 runs this week and away to a wedding next week so it will be tough to get runs in.

Amadeus, may I pose a question. My next LSR is 19 miles, I could do it this Tuesday before I go away or wait until Monday week when I come back. Which would be better as it will be difficult to get many runs in while away.
Cheers.

osnola ibax · 12-09-2009 9:40pm

Hi sub430,

I'm not sure about gels after the frank duffy 10 miler, they certainly gave me a rush for one mile but then I fell flat on my face again.

I've now settled for orange lucozade sport and water, that's what works for me anyway. My last two lsr's, I picked up 500 ml of lucozade in a belt and 750 ml of water in a bottle, half way through run. It's seen me through those long ones.

The injury thing is a nightmare. Last Wednesday I was doing a quickish run, 8:10 miles x 8 and 3 in I felt a pain on the right hand side of my right knee which quickly spread to the right of my calf, then quad. I stupidly ran through it and could really feel it running up the hills.

Went to see Physio on friday who rapidly diagnosed what he called runners knee. He described what was happening with the it band and I didn't realize until today that what he was describing was itbs. In fairness he's a great Physio and I ran 6 after seeing him including up sinnotts town lane without much pain.

Now, I had time to think today (was in lectures), and with the aid of my trusty iPhone and the colleges wifi, I managed to convince myself that the marathon is off. Loads of scare stories about itbs, having to rest it for at least 6 weeks, then slowly rebuild, working on strengthening the quads and calfs etc. I was despairing big time. Sorry I know I'm ranting but I have to tell this to people who really understand.

Anyway, I'm giving up this despair crack until I actually run on it again tomorrow. Supposed to be 13 miles but I'll see how I get on.

Anyway, sorry to hear you are injured aswell sub430, we are all dropping like flies. In truth my legs seem to be aching all over, maybe it's psycho somatic.

Amadeus, do you know where I might get a foam roller, are they expensive and do they work, or am I breaching charter by even asking.

Sub430 · 12-09-2009 9:50pm

Ouch, my niggles seem very minor compared to the dreaded ITBS. Sorry to hear that dude.

I got my foam roller here

I use it and find it very helpful.

menoscemo · 13-09-2009 1:41am

osnola ivax wrote: »

Hi sub430,
do you know where I might get a foam roller, are they expensive and do they work, or am I breaching charter by even asking.

My Physio told me that a tennis ball or even a tin can (beans or spaghetti tin) would be just as effective as a foam roller.

BTW no way am I quitting. I came into this all hoping to fInish a marathon and I will do that even if I have to walk it and take 8 hours. After a while I thought I was getting good at it and had pretentions of being a runner.But f**k that, there is no way I am going to quit just because I might be slower than I would like. I have already hundreds pledged to my charity for finishing and there is no way I am not doing it.

osnola ibax · 13-09-2009 9:20am

Come on the all stars

--amadeus-- · 13-09-2009 8:38pm

Wow, tough week.

It's absolutely no comfort at this point but you're hitting peak mileage and so niggles are a natural part of the process, especially for novices putting thier bodies through this nonsense for the first time.

There is though a tipping point, a point at which aches, pains and niggles turn into injuries and at that point I (and everyone else on here) have to hand you over to the pro's. In some ways the Internet is a curse because 5 mins with Google can convince you that the minor ache after you stubbed your toe is actually bone cancer and you are going to die...

If you have pain don't run. If you have discomfort that causes you to change your gait, speed or distance don't run. if it doesn't clear up after a few days go to a physio.

Onto other things - Sub, you mentioned not liking gels. You could try glucose tablets, you'll get them in a pharmacy and they are what it says on the tin - tablets of pure glucose. You can pop one in and suck on it over a mile or more for a slower, more sustainable carb top up. They don't contain electrolytes though so sports drinks will be needed to.

As for the specifics:

Sub430 wrote: »

Amadeus, may I pose a question. My next LSR is 19 miles, I could do it this Tuesday before I go away or wait until Monday week when I come back. Which would be better as it will be difficult to get many runs in while away.
Cheers.

Hoping you mean Tue coming and I'm not a week late with this!

Do the run when you think you are most likely to get it in, is the easy answer. Personally I'd probably go for it before the break away as it's done and less likely to get pushed aside by other stuff in the first rush of days back. Also if you plan it before you go and miss it then you can do it when you come back. If you plan to do it when you come back and miss it then it's gone. Equally important adjust the other runs in the week to reflect the LSR

osnola ivax wrote: »

Anyway, sorry to hear you are injured aswell sub430, we are all dropping like flies. In truth my legs seem to be aching all over, maybe it's psycho somatic.

Amadeus, do you know where I might get a foam roller, are they expensive and do they work, or am I breaching charter by even asking.

As above - lots and lots of miles = niggles. Don't go making dramatic decisions at this point, take it easy for a week. You're doing a very intensive plan that would be a tough load for an experienced runner, maybe drop to the novice schedule for a week or so and give yourself time to rebuild. You've got so much hard work done now a lighter week or two won't hurt

menoscemo wrote: »

BTW no way am I quitting. I came into this all hoping to fInish a marathon and I will do that even if I have to walk it and take 8 hours. After a while I thought I was getting good at it and had pretentions of being a runner.But f**k that, there is no way I am going to quit just because I might be slower than I would like. I have already hundreds pledged to my charity for finishing and there is no way I am not doing it.

By all means don't give up on the marathon until you absolutely have to. And less rubbish about not being a runner - unless you lot have been levitating for the last few hundred miles you have all been running, so you're runners

Anyway as I said so much hard work has gone in already that the foundations are laid. If you can't run for a week or so and need a light just treat it like an extra long taper. You can adopt a run walk - loads of stratagies to get you round.

BUT!!

Be sensible about it. If medical advice is not to do it then don't do it. There are thousands of marathons but you only have one set of legs. The charity money can be transferred to another runner, people give to the cause and you can always get a stand in.

Everyone relax, take it easy, rest as much as you can and you'll be fine

--amadeus-- · 13-09-2009 9:04pm

Here we go:

Monday | Tuesday|Wedensday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
rest|4m run|9 run|5 m run|rest|cross|18 LSR

(Link to original here)

Don't underestimate this week. 36 miles is a long way. 18 miles is a very long way and for a fair few of you this will equate to 3 hours (maybe more) on your feet. For that reason I'm leaving it as just a flat week, no speed work. If you are running well, no pain aches or niggles then feel free to run the 9 midweek @ PMP. This is only for those who are feeling strong though - if you have any aches beyond the ordinary then don't do it. If you do then take a rest day after, then a slow 5, maybe drop the cross training and rest instead before the LSR.

Again treat the 18 as a dress rehearsal - wear the same clothes, same gels or whatever, same trainers. And live as cleanly as possible - we are within touching distance now so a few careful weeks will pay off. Early nights, cut back on booze, eat well. If you do other sports that carry an injury risk start thinking about scaling back - two weeks before Rotterdam I tweaked a muscle cross training, it healed up in time but the idea of losing 3 months of training over a cross training exercise really freaked me out. This time round I've dropped the cross training already.

Taper in a few weeks as well - next weeks sermon will be on "taper madness" (we have some early signs already!), bet you can't wait

--amadeus-- · 13-09-2009 9:23pm

Roll up, roll up!

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|||||
Rainbow|||||
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|||||
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|||||
Shadyladee|||||

rainbow kirby · 13-09-2009 9:36pm

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|||||
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too

|
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|||||
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|||||
Shadyladee|||||

Sub430 · 13-09-2009 9:51pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

If you do other sports that carry an injury risk start thinking about scaling back

Too right, I took a soccer coaching course today. It helped recover the legs from yesterdays long run but I can feel it in muscles I haven't used for months i.e. those in involved in going any direction but straight!

Sub430 · 13-09-2009 9:54pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too |
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|||||
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|||||
Shadyladee|||||

Well done on the PB Rainbow K - makes all the hard work worthwhile.

menoscemo · 13-09-2009 11:05pm

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too

|
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|||||
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|1|4|341|was injured but I'm back!!|
Shadyladee|||||

goofygirl · 14-09-2009 12:22am

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too

|
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|4|26|293|enjoyed the fall-back week immensely

|
Buck65|||||
menoscemo|1|4|341|was injured but I'm back!!|
Shadyladee|||||

I took it very handy this week, had a wedding yesterday of two very close friends and am still emotionally overwrought from that - does anyone else get like this after weddings?? - but not in fact hungover at all. In fact, I even got up and cycled to the swimming pool and went swimming this morning. Followed by a greasy spoon brunch with the other bridesmaid so we could have the wedding post-mortem and discuss every moment of it all over again. The other great thing about something like a wedding of my best friends is that it puts this marathon thing back in perspective: it's just a run after all, I could hardly care less now whether I finish in four, five or six hours, the important thing is that I'm getting to come home to Dublin and have my friends and family around me for it

buck65 · 14-09-2009 8:44am

goofygirl wrote: »

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too |
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|||||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|4|26|293|enjoyed the fall-back week immensely |
Buck65|2|21|250|just back from illness|
menoscemo|1|4|341|was injured but I'm back!!|
Shadyladee|||||

did 16 miles yesterday, seemed to tweak a knee!

osnola ibax · 14-09-2009 10:29am

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too

|
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|3|19.3|340.3||
Bally8|||||
Goofygirl|4|26|293|enjoyed the fall-back week immensely

|
Buck65|2|21|250|just back from illness|
menoscemo|1|4|341|was injured but I'm back!!|
Shadyladee|||||

Feel wrecked this week, and legs feel sore and tired, have a touch of itbs but gonna head out a lunch time today to do 4 - 5 slow miles and see how I get on. TBH, I really have a problem with nutrition aswell. I eat far too much and too much of the wrong stuff. Diet completely went to pot over the weekend. Gonna try and watch that over the next 6 weeks.

Big A, thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I was actually considering doing the novice programme for the next 6 weeks and actually the intermediate one was probably a reach to far for me. We'll see how it goes.

Bally8 · 14-09-2009 11:59am

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too

|
Mr Marenghi|||||
osnola ivax|3|19.3|340.3||
Bally8|3|26.8|305|Work still getting in the way and Im still all niggly in the hip, achilles and knee areas- oh yeah and my butt cheek hurts a lot too:D|
Goofygirl|4|26|293|enjoyed the fall-back week immensely

|
Buck65|2|21|250|just back from illness|
menoscemo|1|4|341|was injured but I'm back!!|
Shadyladee|||||

Mr Marenghi · 14-09-2009 1:06pm

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Total miles Overall | Comments
Sub430|3|26|306|This week was grand save the niggly injury.|
Rainbow|4|28|240.5|Much better week, 10k PB too

|
Mr Marenghi|2|17|237|have a sore left foot, nothing serious but I took the weekend off ! Heading out this evening to see how it goes !|
osnola ivax|3|19.3|340.3||
Bally8|3|26.8|305|Work still getting in the way and Im still all niggly in the hip, achilles and knee areas- oh yeah and my butt cheek hurts a lot too:D|
Goofygirl|4|26|293|enjoyed the fall-back week immensely

|
Buck65|2|21|250|just back from illness|
menoscemo|1|4|341|was injured but I'm back!!|
Shadyladee|||||

CaoimheX · 14-09-2009 1:55pm

What a thoughtful forum, I just wish I found something like this for when I did my first marathon, to get me over the first time nerves . Well done guys/amadeus great work.

goofygirl · 15-09-2009 6:21pm

You know, I've really been blessed with the weather here in Calgary for training. Summer was difficult at times because of the heat but now that autumn - or "fall" as I suppose I should call it - is here it couldn't be nicer. It's sunny and with just enough of a crisp edge to keep you cool. That said, first snow will be here in a couple of weeks, winter is looooong in Canada....